Atheism Vs. Anti-Theism

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Alex_P

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Mar 27, 2008
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mtk2a post=18.73419.796209 said:
One can define "god" any way you like. I use it as a placeholder for a hypothetical unknown force that may have created the universe and determined its function.
If said hypothetical force cannot exhibit intelligence in the way we understand it (which is, in fact, only through interacting with it), what's the point of anthropomorphizing it?

In order to satisfy any kind of religious claim, you also have to be able to argue that that "god" resembles something from an actual religion. Or, hell, you'd have to at least be able to argue that that hypothetical force is endowed with some kind of moral qualities -- how about that?

-- Alex
 

Aries_Split

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Alex_P post=18.73419.796221 said:
mtk2a post=18.73419.796209 said:
One can define "god" any way you like. I use it as a placeholder for a hypothetical unknown force that may have created the universe and determined its function.
If said hypothetical force cannot exhibit intelligence in the way we understand it (which is, in fact, only through interacting with it), what's the point of anthropomorphizing it?

In order to satisfy any kind of religious claim, you also have to be able to argue that that "god" resembles something from an actual religion. Or, hell, you'd have to at least be able to argue that that hypothetical force is endowed with some kind of moral qualities -- how about that?

-- Alex
Which really begs the question what the hell is a "god"?

I like to think of it as a 4 dimensional being, if such a thing exists.
 

guyy

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Mar 6, 2008
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Alex_P post=18.73419.796205 said:
mtk2a post=18.73419.796197 said:
Therefore it becomes a matter of incomplete information. Mankind literally CANNOT determine whether god exists, or not.
That's because you've defined "God" in terms of a set of unfalsifiable claims.

What do humans do when presented with an unfalsifiable claim that doesn't have the weight of hundreds of years of shared culture behind it? Oh, right, we dismiss it as bullshit handwaving. Sophistry.

-- Alex
Well, saying there is absolutely no God is also an unfalsifiable claim. God is defined so vaguely and in so many different (often contradictory) ways that dismissing them all as completely impossible actually is about as silly as accepting one of the claims, especially considering all the God-esque things that might exist that we've never even thought of. And the idea of a God does have hundreds (actually thousands) of years of shared culture behind it, not that that proves anything.

mtk2a's point, I hope, isn't that God exists, or even that he's likely to exist, but that we need to keep in mind that we don't actually know. Carelessly dismissing the possibility of some intelligent entity that had something to do with creating our Universe, or Earth, or life, or something, is actually very unscientific.
 

mtk2a

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Aries_Split post=18.73419.796213 said:
If you mean Physics, then you are correct.
Not just physics, but also biological function, mathematics, causality, and any other form of naturally occurring order in the universe.

Why is there a REASON for anything? Why do causes have effects and vice versa?

What we perceive to be chaos is, in fact, order; effects determined by causes too complex or abstract to comprehend easily.

Believe me, I only appear to anthropomorphize "god" because that is the way most people understand the concept.

I make no claim that "god" bears any resemblance to any deity proposed by any religion, ever. Nor do I claim that "god" has any moral inclination whatsoever. There is no evidence of it.

I simply accept the possibility of the existence of a supernatural creationist force. I also accept the possibility of its non-existence.
 

mtk2a

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guyy post=18.73419.796231 said:
Alex_P post=18.73419.796205 said:
mtk2a post=18.73419.796197 said:
Therefore it becomes a matter of incomplete information. Mankind literally CANNOT determine whether god exists, or not.
That's because you've defined "God" in terms of a set of unfalsifiable claims.

What do humans do when presented with an unfalsifiable claim that doesn't have the weight of hundreds of years of shared culture behind it? Oh, right, we dismiss it as bullshit handwaving. Sophistry.

-- Alex
Well, saying there is absolutely no God is also an unfalsifiable claim. God is defined so vaguely and in so many different (often contradictory) ways that dismissing them all as completely impossible actually is about as silly as accepting one of the claims, especially considering all the God-esque things that might exist that we've never even thought of. And the idea of a God does have hundreds (actually thousands) of years of shared culture behind it, not that that proves anything.

mtk2a's point, I hope, isn't that God exists, or even that he's likely to exist, but that we need to keep in mind that we don't actually know. Carelessly dismissing the possibility of some intelligent entity that had something to do with creating our Universe, or Earth, or life, or something, is actually very unscientific.
guyy is correct. I am making no argument in one way or another. In fact I believe the usual players on both sides of this argument are probably wrong.
 

JuniorMartin

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The concept of god is best explained in Hinduism. Not a person of being but an existence itself. the idea of god is so hard for our minds to comprehend that we attach a "face" to god so that we can better understand. It kind of fearing what you don't know till you name it.
 

Alex_P

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Mar 27, 2008
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TheNecroswanson post=18.73419.796229 said:
I mean, the Big Bang Theory is called a theory for a reason. There's not way to prove it actually hapPened.
That's the opposite of a theory.

In the "hard" sciences, like physics, a theory is a model supported by empirical observation. The big test is falsifiability -- if something can't be examined based on evidence (at least potentially), then it's not qualified to be a "theory."

Well-established "theories" (like evolution or the Big Bang) have an ever-growing collection of evidence behind them, and get modified or discarded if contradictory evidence is introduced. For example, "Big Bang" theory predicted cosmic microwave background radiation before it was discovered in the 60s (that's pretty much the turning point for the Big Bang becoming the most well-regarded cosmological model).

-- Alex
 

Clairaudient

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I lose respect for people who choose to believe in religion. I can't help it.

I may be just refusing to understand the differences of people but I can't see any plausible reason to believe.
 

LadyZephyr

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My definition of anti-theist is different than the OP's. From every time I've heard the word, it has meant the belief that not only is there no god, but religion is a bad thing the world would be better without.

So, under that definition, I am an atheist and an anti-theist. I'm smart enough to know not to act on my anti-theism because I won't live to see a world free from religion anyway and anti-theism makes you few friends.
 

mtk2a

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Clairaudient post=18.73419.796255 said:
I lose respect for people who choose to believe in religion. I can't help it.

I may be just refusing to understand the differences of people but I can't see any plausible reason to believe.
The point I have been trying to make here is that I have as little respect for people who state "I am sure god does not exist" as for people who state "I am sure that god exists."

Both groups claim to know the ultimate answer to an ultimately unanswerable question.
 

Alex_P

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guyy post=18.73419.796231 said:
Well, saying there is absolutely no God is also an unfalsifiable claim. God is defined so vaguely and in so many different (often contradictory) ways that dismissing them all as completely impossible actually is about as silly as accepting one of the claims, especially considering all the God-esque things that might exist that we've never even thought of. And the idea of a God does have hundreds (actually thousands) of years of shared culture behind it, not that that proves anything.

mtk2a's point, I hope, isn't that God exists, or even that he's likely to exist, but that we need to keep in mind that we don't actually know. Carelessly dismissing the possibility of some intelligent entity that had something to do with creating our Universe, or Earth, or life, or something, is actually very unscientific.
As far as scientific inquiry is concerned, "there is no god" is a quick and dirty hypothesis that has been very, very successful. It's just as strong as the other cornerstones of modern science, albeit of much more limited utility.

The "absolute" assertion that there is no god is a philosophical claim, not a scientific one. Any such claim can be turned to mush if you drill down into the minutiae of thought and language hard enough. "Obscurantisme terroriste" and all that jazz! Sure, one can't "really" "know" that there is no god any more precisely than one can "really" "know" anything about anything.

There's some value in making that observation, perhaps. What's the value in obsessing over the "we don't know" to the exclusion of all else? Why is there a good reason to uphold "we don't know" as the only sensible answer in this one particular situation but not all the time, everywhere?

-- Alex
 

The Iron Ninja

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Limos post=18.73419.796179 said:
In science the teacher had us sort ourselves out by different characteristics. Eye color, hair color, birthdate, and finally. Religion. Knowing I was in a heavily religious group I walked off on my own to stand by myself. As I thought, I was the only Atheist in the class. A boy in the group nearest me, Catholics actually, looked over and asked me. "Why are you standing by yourself? What are you?" I replied, "I'm an Athiest." and to this he says "You worship the Devil!!!" I tried to explain to him that I was not a Satanist, but in fact did not believe in the Devil either. He apparently found this hard to accept and never spoke to me again.
The same kind of thing happened to me.
It was in maths (if I remember correctly, it's been three years since I was in school, and even longer ago for the incident in question). I made a joke comparing the chirstian anti-gay protestors (protesting the proposed law for Homosexual couples to have a marriage of sorts) to the hitler youth, blindly following because someone with a big voice told them something was wrong. (I was 16, forgive me)
My friend, who up until that point I had thought was a fellow athiest, was shocked at my words.
He too also made the assumption that not beleiving in God made you a Satanist. I pointed out that not only to Satanists beleive in God, but also that as a Christian Satan was much more a part of his beleif system than mine.

He might also have been a bit shocked at the idea that someone would want to stand up for Gay rights, he also assumed that I was gay. I pointed out that it was much more a case of basic equality than anything else, and a group of people to stepping all over another group's rights just because it is against what they collectively think is morally right, is morally wrong.
 

Rooster Cogburn

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Threads like this make me want to start worshiping Astarte or Athena, just for cathartic release from it all.

EDIT: Just for the record: Descartes, Augustine, and Lewis got the same reaction!
 

IronDuke

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I am atheist to some groups, anti-theist to others. It boils down to this for me.

The two main deeply religeous people I have spent time with, were my auntie and my schools chaplain. Neither Tried to force anything on me, and infact our school chaplain was one of the most down to earth guys when it came to religeon, and despite the schools religeous sway, he lightheartedly told us he would not be offended if we did not want to pray ect, and he integrated nicely into society. These people have got it right, they use it as a source of inspiration, and in the hands of the moderately intellegent religeon can be used for good (fundraising to help the poor, victims of natural disaster ect). In this way I believe it is a good thing and stand only as an atheist.

On the other hand are the fanatics, evangalists, idiots. These are the people who take millenia old scripture as, for lack of a better word, gospel. Obviously what was written centuries ago applied to different times and situations, and a failure to use your own discresion with your faith is a catastrophe waiting to happen. Systems must evolve with the times or become redundant. This is where many faiths are now; Redundant because the men heading them are not exposed enough to the outside world to change. When these reluctant evolvers tell their followers that "the infidels must die" it is madness. These idiots do insane things for false promises of virgins in heaven, and going way back when, the crusades were waged by religeous drive killing thousands in the name of the church.

If there is a god somewhere, he doesnt want slaughter in his name, or hatred and discrimination-these are things scarce few men who lead their faith belive in, and no one mans word should be held above what is obviously moral. I think religeon from the mouths of the dangerous few and in the ears of the ignorant many is the single most dangerous thing on the planet today. Nothing else can cause such reckless disregard for ones own life, and those of others, for a cause and such gullability to achieve said misguided cause. I wonder sometimes If people have nothing better going on in their lvies that they have to turn to any cause they can to feel worthwhile. I've digressed to middle eastern religeon now I see.

Back to religeon in general; Fiction, or perhaps part fiction, written years ago as a guide to moral living is what religeon should have been or remained, and this is how smart people take it-with a grain of salt, acknowledging that perhaps such a being does not exist but the morals promoted do exist and they are what should be believed in. I also don't think anyone should live in fear of god, unwilling to experience things in life out of expectation of punishment in the afterlife. It is so sad seeing peoples beliefs being barriers to their lives fulfillment, because as far as science tells us, there is no afterlife.

So, if people want to use religeon as a means of comfort or healing-hooray for them, I think thats another decent person in the world. If you take fiction as law... Well you arent much better than people in asylum-that's plain mad.
 

jthm

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I apologize for stepping on any toes here, but I think it's foolish to accept that there is a God on the word of a priest, preacher, deacon, parent or long winded book. I think it's just as foolish to rule out the possibility of a God because there is no firm evidence of God's existence. Given that there is no concrete evidence one way or another, I tend to think agnosticism is the way to go.
If tomorrow I leave my home and bush bursts into flame and divine voice tells me that there is a God, then okay, I'm well on my way to belief. Till then though I think the most educated position to take on the matter is to admit you don't know and won't know till your dead and maybe not even then.
 

Alex_P

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jthm post=18.73419.796319 said:
If tomorrow I leave my home and bush bursts into flame and divine voice tells me that there is a God, then okay, I'm well on my way to belief. Till then though I think the most educated position to take on the matter is to admit you don't know and won't know till your dead and maybe not even then.
You're welcome to enjoy your agnosticism but I think the idea that it's "the most educated position" is quite dubious.

There's a bunch of stuff we don't or can't know. In a broad sense, we can't "know" anything with absolute certainty. Understanding that is an important part of developing a sensible personal understanding of cognition and language. When you focus on that pervasive uncertainty to the exclusion of all else, however, you lose the ability to actually create meaningful ideas.

If I "I don't/can't know whether god exists" represents a level of uncertainty equivalent to "I don't/can't know whether anything I perceive truly exists," then there's no reason to trot out that kind of statement as something special.

Uncertainty pervades everything in our world. Sometimes it's helpful to acknowledge that explicitly and talk about it and try to understand it. Oftentimes, however, effective human thought and communication requir e willfully disregarding that, because we know that adding "... but we can never really know anything" to every idea is just noise, not information (and that it's possible to do so forever if you so choose).

I know that I don't "really know" that the world I perceive has any kind of existence independent of me. I know that I don't "really know" that there is no god. (And I know that I don't "really know" that I know either of those things, technically -- whee, turtles all the way down.) I would say I am about equally sure of the statements "the world I perceive has some kind of existence independent of me" and "there is no god," though.

Given how long and ramblesome that little preamble was, I hope you can see why I prefer to just say "there is no god" and leave the metaphysical existential uncertainty about every facet of human existence as subtext rather than text.

Now, how is your position any more "educated" (not just as educated but more educated) than mine?

-- Alex
 

Typecast

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Anti-theist here, and if you think religious tolerance is the answer you eat babies.
But seriously, preventing the extinction of the species is my only concern, and religion is on the hit list.