Avast ye! piracy and its justifications

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MRMIdAS2k

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I'm a huge Def Leppard fan, I own all their albums, all their DVD's and several T-Shirts & other promotional gubbins, yet if I download a Live recording of them it's classed as Illegal.

Why?

If they bring said show out on DVD/CD I'll buy it, no question.

I'm not stealing off the band, or hurting their profits, I'm not putting money into the hands of a bootlegger, as I won't pay for a recorded live gig.

SO WHY THE FUCK DO PEOPLE GIVE ME SHIT FOR IT?!?!?!?!?!
 

electric discordian

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Apr 27, 2008
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I once worked as a Dj in a fairly trendy dance and RnB club in Preston England, it was a requirement that I had to buy the top 40 tunes in the chart and the top 20 in the then dance chart which for hard copies was two pounds each. I didnt like dance or RnB but it was good money, it rapidly changed to rubbish money if I had to purchase every single.

So I was forced into a position where I had to pirate for better or worse, I hated it!

That is what people pricing music dont think of what people then go on to use that music for.
 

werepossum

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MRMIdAS2k said:
I'm a huge Def Leppard fan, I own all their albums, all their DVD's and several T-Shirts & other promotional gubbins, yet if I download a Live recording of them it's classed as Illegal.

Why?

If they bring said show out on DVD/CD I'll buy it, no question.

I'm not stealing off the band, or hurting their profits, I'm not putting money into the hands of a bootlegger, as I won't pay for a recorded live gig.

SO WHY THE FUCK DO PEOPLE GIVE ME SHIT FOR IT?!?!?!?!?!
That's a little different than your average piracy. The short answer is that you're considered to be stealing the copyrighted live performance. The long answer is that if you're buying all their CDs, the band probably won't care, figuring if they come anywhere near you, you'll go to the live concert anyway. I know there were lots of bootleg live concert tapes sold at Grateful Dead concerts and no one made a big deal about it. Granted that was before CDs and everyone was stoned, but they could still have made a fuss about it or closed down the stands.

Personally I'd guess you're okay with G-d and Def Leppard. A band would have to be pretty dense to complain that a fan couldn't get enough of them and stole music after buying every album and DVD they had for sale.

Electric, people pricing music do indeed think of that and expect you to pay even more if you use it commercially, paying each time you play the song.
 

zoozilla

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I have pirated old, hard-to-find games that I would have to pay tons of money on eBay to obtain. My excuse?

Well, if I'm gonna pay a bajillion dollars for an rare game, the developers of that game aren't going to get the money anyway; some stranger on eBay is going to get my bajillion dollars.

If I want a game, the first thing I will do is check Amazon. Piracy is not the way I obtain the majority of my games.

Stealing anything still sucks, though, and I definitely refrain from downloading anything now.
 

John Galt

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While I do have somewhat of a respect for copy-write law, I will admit to using pirate sites to download items for the sake of convenience (an old Chumbawumba CD was horribly marred before I converted to MP3 format) and the simple fact that there's no other place to get it without expending considerable effort (buying Fallouts 1 and 2 over eBay did not appeal as an option).

I do not feel that piracy as it currently exists will destroy the entertainment and software industries. It is too small of a problem to force an artist or developer to not proceed with a venture. The money that is possibly lost to piracy pales in comparison to the amount a publisher would make selling the product on the actual market. Right now, the situation seems like a stalemate of sorts. Piracy is difficult to track and then try to pin the pirate down for specific charges, yet unless some great cultural change takes place, it will remain a non-mainstream practice.
 

WlknCntrdiction

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LilMissEvil said:
I generally don't agree with piracy. There have been a couple of occasions in the past where I've heard a song from an album, and downloaded a couple of other tracks from the album to see if I like the rest of the band's stuff. Upon hearing the other stuff and liking it, I went out and bought albums anyway. Now, thanks to the mediums of Myspace and Amazon listing snippets of tracks, I don't have to do that to see if I'm wasting my hard earned cash or not.

And to be fair, quite a lot of stores now will pop on an album for you to have a quick listen to a couple of tracks before you buy anyway.

As far as other mediums go, there's a shedload of trailers out there for different movies, and with Xbox Live there's a tonne of game demos to download too (or whichever console you happen to have). So not really any need for piracy!

Economic justifications should not enter into it at all. If you were skint, and cast your roving eye over a lovely piece of jewellery, or a new controller for your console...would you just pick it up and take it, and justify it by saying you just couldn't afford it this month? I doubt it.
But then what about people like me? I can afford to buy CDs, DVDs and the like but they are really really expensive. I only have 5 physical DVDs in my house, those were films I thought were great(like Transformers)and justice couldn't be done watching it on a laptop screen, the next dvd I plan to buy is Iron Man but I won't be buying anything else until then or after then. I have a plethora of movies that I didn't think warranted me buying the DVD on my harddrive, along with a couple several thousand songs and other things(CS3 Master Collection ftw)on there.

The only thing stopping me from pirating videogames is the fear that I will mess up my xbox and that the space on my laptop harddrive isn't big enough to store the game files on it. At least with game there are reviwes and different opinions and stuff on which to base my buying decision but with music and films you have to see and listen to them which means paying for them, and if I have to pay and then I'm disappointed with the product(Minutes to Midnight I'm looking at you)then I'll feel cheated, so I'm not going to take that chance, I'll download it for free, if I don't like it then I won't keep it, nothing lost, nothing gained, everyone is happy, well I am anyways:)

Piracy isn't THAT much of a problem anyway. And even when it does become a problem I will have enough money to buy things but then again I might not even bother for the same risk involved of me not liking the film/music.

Pirating can be helpful though, I don't just pirate music and films, I've "pirated" several pieces of software that I've found useful and have often needed, 3D programs I've needed(3D Studio Max 2009 particularly)are grossly overpriced, I'm not going to pay for something like that, I'll just torrent it, simple, rendering 3D models and scenes in no time at all:D
 

Anniko

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I propose a question: Why should piracy be looked at as a lost sale? They're not gonna buy it, but they are going to talk about it. Why don't we look at piracy as free advertising? Good, bad or indifferent, they're gonna talk about it.

The problem with this, is if a game is released and it sucks, the advertising is going to be bad.
 

stompy

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Jan 21, 2008
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I pirate quite a few music files of Limewire, and I don't lie to myself about it. I'm a no good thief, and there's no way 'round it. That being said, it's a lot easier than stealing a physical copy from the store...
 

Fangface74

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On a side note, what do both sides (pro & anti pirate) think of the high street stores that allow game trade ins? The game creators don't make a penny from it, yet their product increases in circulation...
 

MRMIdAS2k

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Fangface74 said:
On a side note, what do both sides (pro & anti pirate) think of the high street stores that allow game trade ins? The game creators don't make a penny from it, yet their product increases in circulation...
If I buy a game, I tend not to trade it in.

I keep games, and usually play them to maximum completion.

I still have all 6 GTA games, all 7 Resident Evil games, and all 5 metal Gear games (7 if you count the substance/sunsistance knockoffs).

End of the day, if a game is shit, you can't complain at a store trying to make some money off the crappy purchase, however, I won't download a game that is in plentiful supply for this generation's consoles/pcs.

If you can't get hold of a game easily (IE. I have a downloaded version of Bio Hazard for the PS1, I HAVE Resident Evil, so I feel downloading the uncensored version is fine, as I have PAID for the original, HOWEVER, if say, I downloaded the Japanese version of Final Fantasy XII, That would be wrong, sic=nce I don't own the original, and never intend to).
 

HSIAMetalKing

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I'll admit it-- I haven't purchased a CD from stores since I was in like 5th grade. Once I discovered that there was free stuff online, it was pretty much a downhill slope. I download plenty of old games (NES, SNES, N64, Genesis...), and some old PC games that are hard to find. Movies I usually don't bother with, since after I prefer seeing them in theaters and after that I never really feel the urge to watch them again.

But music is my main thing. I just can't bring myself to blow money on CDs, no matter how much I love the artist.

Anyway, yarr, I'm a pirate-- I won't try to justify any of it, since I'm sure it's wrong on so many different levels... but "meh".
 

Anton P. Nym

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Sep 18, 2007
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I used to pirate games a lot in high school; that the comp.sci lab used Commodore 64s made that all too easy. Then I tried to make a living by selling "intellectual property" and found out how hard it is to do. Suddenly piracy didn't feel right; too much like pissing in the local water supply, in that I'd end up drinking the piss too if I kept it up.

Since then I'll confess to only one case of piracy, and that's getting BSG season 3 online when I found that the DVD set was going to be held back a year... and that iTunes wouldn't vend the episodes to Canadians in the meantime, so I grabbed a torrent out of pique. I did, however, buy the DVD set (the steelcase edition, no less) the day it came out, but despite my rationalisation it wasn't right.

It's all very easy to say that piracy is victimless until you're chasing down want-ads to make ends meet and see an obvious knock-off of your own stuff on the way.

-- Steve
 

werepossum

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KneeLord said:
werepossum said:
Stealing is stealing. Certainly stealing a little is better than stealing a lot, but it's still theft. Piracy is no different than stealing someone's car on the grounds that insurance will pay him back and he'll be out nothing.
While I concur that the consequences of actions hold weight, even if they cannot be seen, I disagree with your analogy. Stealing property of physical, tangible quality is definately theft, but downloading off the internet is duplication, not removal. Your analogy would be more apt if the perpetrator created a free copy of the subject's car and drove off leaving the original in the parking lot, now slightly devalued for its diffused uniqueness.

Now, the obvious response to that would be to say that the theft in this case was not the car itself, but the its potential sale. That makes sense, but the part I have trouble accepting is that once you get into ascribing value to hypothetical actions, you destroy the basis for establishing principles such as Stealing = Stealing. As thoughts aren't facts, a person could steal the whole world in their mind and be guilty of nothing. Meta-ethics aside, the value of intent is nothing when its execution is unverifiable. (e.g. WAS there a sale that was lost, taken, or stolen? Or would the person inclined to piracy have even bothered if it wasn't free?)

This is where I stop speaking like an authority on the topic because I have no fucking idea how to answer that question. But I'm pretty certain that its folley to create the basis for judicial principles on maybes. All of that said, I think the stolen care sale analogy works better in the case of individuals who actually SELL pirated or bootleg media and IP for personal profit, as opposed to people distributing/downloading freely for personal use.

Regardless of the morality of piracy or people's feelings about it, I think its safe to say that it is inevitable that inclined people will do so, regardless of how much bad noise, lawsuits and copy protection media corporations throw at the "problem". Further, I think most people here will agree with me that us legit, paying video game consumers it is much more tasteful to be treated to an honor system (ala Stardock Games / Glactic Civ) than it is to be bludgeoned by intrusive, futile DRM software that punishes and alienates paying customers (ala, PC Mass Effect). I'm not sure what would be the "right" way to dissuade piracy, but I'm confident that the RIAA/MPAA publisher types are beating down the wrong path with a heavy hand.
I was speaking not of the value of a prospective sale, but of intellectual property rights, on which modern civilization is based. Intellectual property rights mean that if you create something unique and properly register it, you have the exclusive rights to that something. Other people can't copy it even for their own use. This has serious implications not just for music, movies, and games, but for physical products as well. If you go back to even the early nineteenth century, there was no controlling legal authority (to quote Al Gore) for intellectual property rights. If you designed a better widget, anyone was free to manufacture that widget for themselves or for sale. Thus many inventors died broke. Society had the immediate benefit of cheap copies of the original device - especially since the copiers had none of the original, often lengthy product development costs and could often sell the same product more cheaply - but was denied the future inventions that might have come had the inventor been able to reap a better profit, which would have supported work on further inventions.

Purely non-physical products are in even worse shape because they can now be duplicated without loss. A first-quality video game costs tens of millions of dollars to create, produce, and market, and returns are often marginal or worse. As piracy increases, the return on investment decreases, and at some point video games are just not profitable business. At that point video games will be reduced to amateur efforts because the profit just isn't there for a business venture. Remember the great video games to come out of Communist China or Cuba or the Soviet Union or North Korea? Yeah, me neither. Without profit, non-essential things like video games go away.

As far as the right way to discourage piracy, I haven't a clue. As long as people feel entitled to steal things, things will be stolen. Piracy has been to some extent limited on the consoles, but for PC gaming one of three courses will eventually win out. Either PC gaming will die out, PC gaming will continue with increasingly onerous DRM, or PC gaming will be transformed by some hardware solution.
 

ElArabDeMagnifico

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TheNecroswanson said:
Piracy, is a stanceless problem. I've yet to see it actually hurt someone's revinue that they would miss.
I don't pirate. If there's a CD I want, I scrape by until I have the extra money on hand. Movie? Hadj copies suck anyway.
Really though, piracy is a crime that should be viewed as such. But until it shows proof of having detrimental effects on someone's revinue, it should go unpunished.

Keep in mind however, if you are stealing something that is not a neccesity to you at the time, you are a criminal.
Not to mention that those who do ***** about it (Crytek) can't even find the proof that it is affecting them. At least most of the time.
 

Perverted_Pirate

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I'll admit I pirate quite a bit(x1000) and don't want to even image what the price would be if I had bought it all from shops(and they where all available in shops)....I'd guess at £100,000+ mark....Strangely though I've never pirated games beyond the odd SNES classic....
Yeah and I can't actually afford it...so I pay for it through my internet connection...
Besides Pirating does not = stealing and 60%+ of the stuff I download is not available to me and some of the stuff that is available is extremely expensive....Pirating is a convience and easy to use...if the big companies wised-up and changed their model it would reduce pirating.
 

Saskwach

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werepossum said:
As far as the right way to discourage piracy, I haven't a clue. As long as people feel entitled to steal things, things will be stolen. Piracy has been to some extent limited on the consoles, but for PC gaming one of three courses will eventually win out. Either PC gaming will die out, PC gaming will continue with increasingly onerous DRM, or PC gaming will be transformed by some hardware solution.
I think this is the central issue of piracy: it's so simple and impersonal that it can't really be stealing, can it (so the thought goes)?
You forget a fourth solution, though: the PC gaming business model changes to live with piracy and mitigate it with many "soft" measures. Stardock are famous for this, and Battlefield Heroes is trying a different, but still soft, solution.
 

PsychoBunny

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Jun 11, 2008
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The common thought among people seems to be, "There's no physical copy, so who is getting hurt?". It's the problem with the internet: everyone feels anonymous and thus does not feel the need to behave the same that they do in real life. Most people would see a problem with walking into a store, picking up a CD and walking out without paying. Few people see a problem with going to an internet site and downloading some music without paying for it.

Piracy can't be stopped (even though companies like to spend millions of dollars trying). Even the most onerous software protection is broken within a month. Anybody remember the multi-million dollar copy protection developed by Sony? Broken with a 10 cent permanent marker. The best (and maybe only) solution to piracy is to give people a compelling reason why they should buy the real product. In games, this is often through online play. Music and movies have not had such an easy solution.
 

BigNiceJohn

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The only CD's I buy anymore are from bands I see at a New Music Night show every week at a bar by my house. These are, for the most part, DIY bands, who even create their own CD artwork and covers, and while the sound quality on some of them isn't great, I'd much rather support struggling artists who haven't gotten a break yet.

I live in Toronto, and I download most (basically anything on a major label) of my music. I don't buy cd's, because I just don't need a physical copy, and it's not something that helps an artist much, so I certainly don't feel like I'm taking money from an artist. There are always a tonne of bands coming through this city, and I'll go out as often as I can afford it to see bands I love, and some I've never heard of... that's where the entertainment lies for me, not in listening to something that was created one band member at a time in a lifeless studio.

I don't see many movies, less than 10 a year in theatres, but this article ( http://www.themovieblog.com/2007/10/why-commercials-before-movies-is-worse-than-piracy ) opened my eyes even more good reasons to download them. I do actually buy a tonne of DVD's, though, because I'm a whore for audio commentary, as it turns out.
 

the_tramp

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I believe piracy encourages sales. Now I know that everyone says this but who has actually experienced this? I for one have. A few years the workprint (I think) of Kill Bill Vol. 1 leaked onto the internet. I had never heard of Quentin Tarantino, or seen any of his films but downloaded it because I heard it was supposed to be violent and there was a lot of buzz about the internet.
I downloaded it, but due to my age at the time could not see it in the cinema. I live in the UK where it is rated 18 meaning you have to be 18 to watch it, the accompanied by an adult exception does not occur here, this has however been introduced to 12's that I am incredibly against... but that's for another post.
Either way after watching it I bought all of his films, even getting Vol. 1 on its release day, as well as seeing Vol. 2 in the cinema and eventually getting the dvd. So off the bat, one act of piracy has resulted in 5 dvd sales and a cinema ticket. This is why, whilst piracy in its purest form is bad, I have no problem with piracy.
There have been other similar situations that has happened to me, but it all ends the same so this cannot be considered an isolated incident.