The great thing about the Deus Ex endings are they all suck. I'm gonna spoil the shit out of it, because its an 11 year old game now, but you either merge with a computer and rule as a benevolent dictator, blow up the interwebs and usher in a new dark age giving humanity somewhat of a fresh start, or join the illuminati and preserve the status quo(albeit with some improvements). They're all flawed and in their own way depressing, just like real life. Deus Ex was kinda nice in that only the last 20 minutes or so of gameplay determine your ending, so you can see them all without redoing everything.trollpwner said:
"Bad" Endings.
- Thread starter AwkwardTurtle
- Start date
Recommended Videos
No offense, but how is this different from the real world? You can make more choices in the real world, but the end result is the same. You pay for your decisions in the end. Of course, even the most virtuous of person can be randomly struck by a bus, but generally, you reap what you sow.AwkwardTurtle said:
It would seem to me that, in a game like Catherine, you would almost by definition HAVE to have a bad ending. The only problem I can really see is that someone else is judging you....But then, that's kind of a necessity in gaming.
Endings where you can't actually tell if they were good or bad are usually the best. Deus Ex (as mentioned), Syberia, the first Fallout, Mask of the Betrayer, Planescape: Torment or even Oblivion come to mind. They can be as rewarding as "properly good" onces if executed with finesse.
And yes, I believe bad endings have their place in games, if we ignore those "bam, you're dead". Decisions you made during a game should have consequences whether they were good or bad. You make bad decisions, you receive bad ending. Pretty straightforward and logical.
And yes, I believe bad endings have their place in games, if we ignore those "bam, you're dead". Decisions you made during a game should have consequences whether they were good or bad. You make bad decisions, you receive bad ending. Pretty straightforward and logical.
I'm perfectly fine with the concept of 'reaping what I sow'. In fact as the narrator did her best to put a positive spin on the 'bad' ending I actually didn't see it as a particularly bad ending. However the giant middle finger to my face was the achievement telling me that it was a 'bad' ending. What's the point in trying to view the ending positively when the game objectively defines which ending is good and bad.Zachary Amaranth said:
In life you can view the decisions and consequences that occur afterwards in any way you want. Such as studying a fair amount of time for a test and getting a B as a result. A person can say, alright I did my best, essentially being a 'good' ending for their actions. Another person might say ahh I should have studied more to get an A, so to them the B represents a 'bad' ending. No one goes up to the person and decides that for them and no one should have the right to do that. I just thought that this concept should apply to games.
They suck as in there's no bunnies or roses. There is no right choice. They're all downers, all compromises. I like them fine, read entire paragraphs before you go deciding you knew what someone was trying to say.trollpwner said:
And no, I won't apologize for not spoilering a decade old game. If you were really that worried about it you could have quit reading at "spoiler the shit out of it." BTW the final boss in DX:HR is Megan, she was behind the whole thing. Pwn'd. Just kidding, I made that up, if its actually right then I'll be surprised too. Also in the sixth sense Dr. Crowe is dead, that's why the kid can see him.
Anyway if you hadn't played the game by now then its safe to say that you weren't all that interested in it to need a spoiler, and its pretty unlikely a column or video series would bother to warn for spoilers in Deus Ex either.
Because people and even characters try and spin things?AwkwardTurtle said:
[/quote]In life you can view the decisions and consequences that occur afterwards in any way you want. Such as studying a fair amount of time for a test and getting a B as a result. A person can say, alright I did my best, essentially being a 'good' ending for their actions. Another person might say ahh I should have studied more to get an A, so to them the B represents a 'bad' ending. No one goes up to the person and decides that for them and no one should have the right to do that. I just thought that this concept should apply to games.[/quote]
So you're letting an achievement pop-up get in your way. Is that really any different than when someone judges you on your actions? You consider it an okay ending. Run with that. It was labeled "bad" because of the result.
If they're going to have multiple endings make each one of them equal with no clear good or bad ending. If the tradition of karmic gameplay is to continue they need to do this because if life isn't black and white why should our games be? There should almost be no clear good or bad choice because in the end it makes the whole choice system more worth it.
AwkwardTurtle said:
Well, my attitude is simply that a game that you are always going to win is rather pointless. The idea of a bad ending is that your desicians make a differance, and it's possible to end badly in a way other than the death of the character that you happen to control. An option other than "death, or an optimistic outcome".
A point to consider also is that "bad" endings in games oftentimes are a reward unto themselves, as they oftentimes add insights into the game and what is going on that aren't present during a victory. In many games, especially Japanese ones, to really understand what was going on in it's entirety you need to see all the endings. The achievement is there because it shows that you finished one of the endings, and you can sort of check it off for completeness.
The big issue I personally have with bad endings in games is that in today's era of the internet and easily availible strategy guides, many people never wind up with those endings simply because they are immediatly able to aim for an optimum playthrough with the best possible ending and thus tend to miss a good part of the point. Part of what makes games with mixed endings replayable is to score a less than optimum ending, look at what happens, and then figure "well, what could I have done to change this".
Oddly a frequently missed point when some people complain about "well how would anyone ever guess to do that to get the best ending" is that the best endings were intended for multiple playthroughs (adding to the replayability of the game) with hints about what obtuse things to do being present in how the bad endings turn out.
Of course then again in some games what is actually a good or bad ending is a matter of perspective. In a few cases I've found myself disagreeing with the labels in what was the best, or most appropriate, ending for a given game's storyline.
In the case of 999 (the DS game you mentioned) part of the point of the entire thing was not just go blast through the puzzles, but to figure out how to win an otherwise unwinnable situation through trial and error.
Thing is, I don't think NWN2:MotB has a bad ending, because the writing in that game is so superb that every single ending is satisfying in its own way.CM156 said:
Or rather, I think there is confusion as to what "bad ending" actually means.
fallout new vegas: apart from the fact the entire ending is a cutscene going through everything you did and ending the game without even a sandbox mode, in mine it took all the towns and people i thought i'd help and telling me my faction had shat on them all
Someone else said it. Dragon Age: Origins does it's endings superbly well. There are different and vastly varied ways that the games ends but none of them are the "you're shit! fuck off, here's a crappy ending!".
Chrono Trigger is probably the best example of a game that does multiple endings the best.
Chrono Trigger is probably the best example of a game that does multiple endings the best.
Well I for one am well aware of strategy guides and stay away from the temptation without playing the game through at least once without it. Hence the reason why many of my team died in my first play-through of Mass Effect 2. (I thought that Zaeed was a capable leader~ ^^' And for some reason I thought it'd be a good idea to use Jacob as the biotic to shield us.) And I found the deaths of my teammates to actually be quite tragic, and I would never have experienced that if I just looked up how to get the No One Left Behind achievement from the start.
I can understand the point you're making with the whole idea of different perspectives on the same situation. I suppose I was just quick to be angry at the whole concept of even labeling specific endings 'bad' or 'good'.
In the case of 999 I just didn't like how I honestly could not tell for the life of me how in the world I was supposed to figure out how to get the best 'true' ending without simply trying every single combination of doors systematically. The fact that they didn't make every combination have a unique ending, but instead had several combinations all result in a death I had witnessed before is what drove me to looking up a guide.
I can understand the point you're making with the whole idea of different perspectives on the same situation. I suppose I was just quick to be angry at the whole concept of even labeling specific endings 'bad' or 'good'.
In the case of 999 I just didn't like how I honestly could not tell for the life of me how in the world I was supposed to figure out how to get the best 'true' ending without simply trying every single combination of doors systematically. The fact that they didn't make every combination have a unique ending, but instead had several combinations all result in a death I had witnessed before is what drove me to looking up a guide.
Well presumably a properly implemented "bad" ending would involve bad stuff happening to the player character and/or the game world as a direct or indirect result of the player's choices through out the game, not just the game arbitrarily saying 'You suck, player' which is, I'm guessing from your description, exactly what Catharine did.
I think Fallout did it best where it broke down what happened to each place you visited as a resulted of the choices you made there. Arcanum did this too, only they forgot to tell you the fate of your character which kinda sucked.
I think Fallout did it best where it broke down what happened to each place you visited as a resulted of the choices you made there. Arcanum did this too, only they forgot to tell you the fate of your character which kinda sucked.
I just think this good/bad ending thing is just a phase. Soon technology will improve to the point where game companies can be bothered to add in many more shades of grey in between the black and white.
I kind of like some bad endings in games because it makes you actually consider your actions (if done well anyway). What I mean is, such as that in 999, if you make bad decisions as a detective is it really surprising that you never solve the mystery? What I hate is when you get the bad ending based on something that has no revelence to the plot, like if you the whole world explodes at the end because you chose the warrior class at the beginning of the game instead of the mage, or what Disgaea did.AwkwardTurtle said:
Well actually in retrospect, I suppose I started this topic in anger at the idea that I got a 'bad' ending. I can't really fault Catherine for giving me the ending I got, it seems a reasonable conclusions to my indecisive actions. In retrospect and at the calming and reasoned words from Therumancer I now see the point in the bad ending I got in Catherine, although it momentarily bothered me.canadamus_prime said:
Also I agree with the fact that Fallout has a fairly well designed feeling of freedom and choice. :3
I like how STALKER: Shadow of Chernobyl approached the whole multiple endings problem.
If you followed the game normally, you would only be able to get one of five endings, all of which end in nothing positive being accomplished. In order to get the good ending, you need to follow a specific quest line. Essentially the idea is that if you work hard, you'll be able to get the ending that is desirable.