Barack Obama and Socialism

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Bronzebow

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simon2it said:
I know it's different, but you can't argue that a lot of rich people can afford the higher taxes. And that it will help out if the extra money gained from the government are spent on making the life better for everyone.
Whether or not "rich people" can afford it is irrelevant. It's like a case of an idealized Robin Hood. "Look, that person's rich! That means they're evil and should give away their money!" For the sake of this discussion, I'll go with the flow and state that the income tax is valid, even though it really isn't.

Your problem is thinking that raising the tax on "anyone making over 250k" and putting this money into social programs is a good thing. It's not, and for several reasons. First off, Americans are still getting taxed an arm and a leg. I lose over $14,000 yearly in taxes. McCain would get me back roughly $200 of that. Obama, rougly $300. Whoop de friggin' do. These taxes go to things like medicare and social services, both of which corrupt politicians have bankrupt to fund their own service. I'm 24 and will work my entire life, putting money into these "retirement plans." They will not be there when I retire. I'm going to lose money my entire life for *literally nothing in return.* Not only that, but businesses are considered legally 'persons' so that they can get taxed. You are now going to increase drastically the taxes on many, many small businesses, which will hurt bad. They won't be able to hire more people and/or their costs will go up. What you think is simply "stealing money from evil rich people" is really "stealing money from a few rich people, but shafting middle class and below."

Do you still think that my taxes go to helping me?

Our federal government is incredibly bloated. We have the department of education which should not be there at all, medicare and social services which should not be there, farm and corn subsidies which should not be there, oil subsidies which should not be there, homeland security which should not be there, and the list goes on quite a ways. We have an out of control federal reserve that just printed a trillion dollars of FIAT currency taxing me very heavily with the always ignored inflation tax, making what money I have have even less worth. These same people are telling us that a lack of regulation AND lack of power of the federal government is the cause of this.

Do you still think our taxes are going to help us?

You think that stealing more money from rich people is for altruistic reasons. In reality, it's so that politicians will have more pork to spend to help keep themselves in office. What we NEED to do is drastically reduce both the power and money flow of the federal government, like was designed, and have states control exactly what needs to happen.

Do you still think washington is responsible with spending money?

Check this link out. Watch all six. That should give you a pretty good idea on how our political system works:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Phs6CwnutoY&feature=related
 

beddo

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Mistah Kurtz said:
TheDean said:
Are you suggesting that socialism is a bad thing? I realy don't have time to read the full post, but let's be real here: socialism is a good thing. Even fictional Jesus was a socialist.
How somebody who has enough intelligence to use a keyboard can say this with a straight face is beyond me. Every socialist society has lead to a dictatorship and then crumbled under it's own stupidity. The concept is stupid, the practice is idiotic, and the supporters are hippie pot smoking college students who are going to be embarrassed with themselves when they look back on this type of idiocy. Socialism is NOT a good thing, and it has never BEEN a good thing....
Firstly, this whole thread is some bizarre right-wing alarmist nonsense. Inciting a fear of anything that isn't centre right! In fact, if you look at history both Mussolini and Hitler incited and used fear of left-wing governments as a tool to help gain power.

The reason all self-proclaimed socialist and communist governments don't go from being socialist to being dictators. They simply become dictators, this point alone negates the statement that they are socialist and certainly communist as they can't actually have a government or state.

Barack Obama is not a socialist, he is a mild liberal. Maybe if the Bush administration didn't spend 40% of tax income on the military and outrageously unjust wars they could have focused on stabilising the economy and providing more social security for all. Then the democrats really wouldn't be a threat.

When you only support the elite you should be surprised that the rest of the people feel hard done by.
 

mokes310

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timmyjay22 said:
In response to Good Morning Blues:

Communism is the type of government, Socialism is the style of economics.They are exactly the same thing, just one pertains to the country's politics. That's why they go hand in hand. Just like our (America's) Democracatic Republic has a Capitalist economy.

And I can't trust someone who associates with an unrepentant terrorist. And yes, people like Ayers can get far in the educational system because there are many like him in high positions in that field.
You might want to do a little more reading before making claims like that...
 

TheDean

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Bronzebow said:
TheDean said:
taxation is bad. but without it how would we get things like healthcare and such? And i reckon Jesus was a socialist. He gave to his community. He was all about the community. THat is the very foundation of socialism. And i'm nto even going nearthe question of whether hewas real, i'm speaking strictly from the character portrayed in the bible.
I disagree. The difference here is the force being used. Taxation is absolutely not bad and a necessary part of holding a government for it to be funded. It's the method from which we are taxed, amount, and what these taxes are used for that brings up an issue.

Yes, Jesus did help His community, but that seems to be where a logical breakdown occurs when referring to him as socialist. People think that this is the same as taking everyone's money into a pool and distributing it, that this is the same as taking matters into your own hands and helping where you can. Increasing taxes on rich and using that to fund health care (just as an example) for all, unfortunately, is not an example of this. People have issues with the cost of health care in America, crying to daddy federal gov to fix the problems without even realizing that it's daddy federal gov that caused it to begin with. It sounds all nice and good to say that socialism "has the community at heart." So does communism. Both system would work GREAT in a perfect world. Needless to say, that's not the case.

I might add that this $250k limit of taxes for Obama? That includes businesses, thanks to corporate personhood. Tax business, lose jobs. Lose jobs, we get deeper into this rabbit hole. Socialistic policies that Obama suggests are absolutely great at causing a thousand unseen problems to try (and fail) to tackle the visible one. After all, giving money to kids to go to college absolutely will not cause colleges to raise their tuition at all, right? The federal government should absolutely NOT be a place for everyone to go to fix their problems. In fact, the increasing power of the federal gov is causing much more of a backlash with companies lobbying to have their own versions of laws put into place. It's a damn scary nightmare how many people are looking at the fed to fix problems they need to fix themselves, and continually electing people who promise--and fail--to do that.

You ask how we would get national health care without taxation? Simple. Reduce the taxes on everyone, dismantle large portions of the bloated federal government so that they don't need this money, take away government subsidies for health and medical which are the cause of the U.S.'s expensive health care, and let actual competition open up. Fixing a problem caused by taking too much money from people and giving too much to health and medical is not going to be fixed by taking more money from people and giving more of it to health and medical. Health care would become affordable, hospitals would no longer be ABLE to charge the exhortation fees they do now, and the federal gov would get its grubby hands where they do not belong.

Of course, this is being brought to us by the same...unintelligent people in Washington that are trying to fix a problem caused by excessive forced credit by creating more excessive forced credit. Go figure.

(For the record, I'm not voting for McCain. People tend to take criticism of Obama as being in the bucket for the second turd running in the big office. They both suck. Go third party.)

1. Taxation pays frthe govt? WASTE OF MONEY! Taxes also pay for that pathetic lay-about known as thequeen. PATHETIC! How much money is wasted on her every year?

2. We could make Anarcho-Communism work if we wanted to.
3. corporate business? Boo to them.
4. Ah, see, here in the UK hospitals don't charge us anyway.
5. McCain sucks. OBama isn't good either. I would vote for an atheist, a skeptic. I'm ust sayin'.
 

TheDean

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BallPtPenTheif said:
TheDean said:
taxation is bad. but without it how would we get things like healthcare and such? And i reckon Jesus was a socialist. He gave to his community. He was all about the community. THat is the very foundation of socialism. And i'm nto even going nearthe question of whether hewas real, i'm speaking strictly from the character portrayed in the bible.
Again, Jesus preached about giving willingly. Socialism and taxation are mandatory practices. A communal style of living or a Kibitz system is not the same as socialism.
i have never heard of kibitz ever. and i need to eat soon so i have no time to look it up just now, but giving willingly sounds alot like socialism to me.
 

Alex_P

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Mar 27, 2008
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BallPtPenTheif said:
Again, Jesus preached about giving willingly. Socialism and taxation are mandatory practices. A communal style of living or a Kibitz system is not the same as socialism.
That's "kibbutz."

"Kibitz" is something a spectator does when he makes comments to the players about a game.

-- Alex
 

laikenf

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Communism is a very Utopian concept. Because of his nature, man can never bring himself into creating a true communist society; I mean it sounds all nice and pretty on paper, but history has shown us that whenever any given culture (or country) decides to establish communism as it's form of government that society quikly shifts into a dictatorship. When you take a closer look most of the countries that end up opting for a communist government (Cuba comes to mind) are societies that were under extreme oppression, suffering social woes like poverty, corruption, etc. These things ussualy lead to extreme revolutions by the people (like the islamic revolution in Iran). I say all this because a lot of people on this forum don't seem to understand the differences between communism and socialism. You can find socialist (or socialist leaning) governments all over Europe and Latin America. As a matter of fact a lot of capitalist countries apply some level of socialism to their governments (it creates a balance I guess) including the USA.
 

Anton P. Nym

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Bronzebow said:
Your problem is thinking that raising the tax on "anyone making over 250k" and putting this money into social programs is a good thing. It's not, and for several reasons. First off, Americans are still getting taxed an arm and a leg. I lose over $14,000 yearly in taxes. McCain would get me back roughly $200 of that. Obama, rougly $300. Whoop de friggin' do. These taxes go to things like medicare and social services, both of which corrupt politicians have bankrupt to fund their own service. I'm 24 and will work my entire life, putting money into these "retirement plans." They will not be there when I retire. I'm going to lose money my entire life for *literally nothing in return.* Not only that, but businesses are considered legally 'persons' so that they can get taxed. You are now going to increase drastically the taxes on many, many small businesses, which will hurt bad. They won't be able to hire more people and/or their costs will go up. What you think is simply "stealing money from evil rich people" is really "stealing money from a few rich people, but shafting middle class and below."
Firstly, to my understanding Obama's tax plan simply restores the tax rates back to what that "ebil lie-beral" Ronald Reagan had it at. From that perspective, it looks to me to be a revokation of a tax cut made to support George W Bush's supply-side economic plan that is rapidly turning into a smoking crater; it's the termination of a costly, hopeful, but ultimately failed experiment.

Secondly, it's McCain's own party that imposed that Homeland Security debacle and racked up the massive deficits. The Republican Party is no more "conservative" on a fiscal basis than the Democrats... arguably less, given how the balance sheets read in Clinton's day. Blame W for your fiat money; he's the one who's printed most of it, probably more than any other president in American history. Arguing that Obama's going to screw things up doesn't address the real question; how do you dig yourselves out of the mess you've voted yourselves into?

Thirdly, if your government is corrupt it doesn't matter what tax policy is in place; you're screwed, because corrupt systems will find other sources of "funding" (be it running the presses or just trolling for bribes) to line the pockets of those within it. Instead of feuding about marginal tax rates, you'd be better off depoliticising your justice department and getting an audit system with real teeth that's less focused on paperwork. And you'd be far better off actually punishing politicians who dip into the pork barrel for bridges to nowhere, instead of electing them because they promise you low taxes and then turn to inflation money to pay off the rest of their promises.

-- Steve
 

simon2it

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Bronzebow said:
simon2it said:
I know it's different, but you can't argue that a lot of rich people can afford the higher taxes. And that it will help out if the extra money gained from the government are spent on making the life better for everyone.
It has nothing to do with rich people being evil. My parents could be qualified as rich. It's helping the country.

We pay over 30% in tax. Glad to do it.
 

Kair

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Most rich people have not worked that hard to get to where they are.
Most rich people directly or indirectly exploit other people to become richer.
 

TomNook

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Kair said:
Most rich people have not worked that hard to get to where they are.
Most rich people directly or indirectly exploit other people to become richer.
Source?
 

Bronzebow

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Anton P. Nym said:
Firstly, to my understanding Obama's tax plan simply restores the tax rates back to what that "ebil lie-beral" Ronald Reagan had it at. From that perspective, it looks to me to be a revokation of a tax cut made to support George W Bush's supply-side economic plan that is rapidly turning into a smoking crater; it's the termination of a costly, hopeful, but ultimately failed experiment.

Secondly, it's McCain's own party that imposed that Homeland Security debacle and racked up the massive deficits. The Republican Party is no more "conservative" on a fiscal basis than the Democrats... arguably less, given how the balance sheets read in Clinton's day. Blame W for your fiat money; he's the one who's printed most of it, probably more than any other president in American history. Arguing that Obama's going to screw things up doesn't address the real question; how do you dig yourselves out of the mess you've voted yourselves into?

Thirdly, if your government is corrupt it doesn't matter what tax policy is in place; you're screwed, because corrupt systems will find other sources of "funding" (be it running the presses or just trolling for bribes) to line the pockets of those within it. Instead of feuding about marginal tax rates, you'd be better off depoliticising your justice department and getting an audit system with real teeth that's less focused on paperwork. And you'd be far better off actually punishing politicians who dip into the pork barrel for bridges to nowhere, instead of electing them because they promise you low taxes and then turn to inflation money to pay off the rest of their promises.

-- Steve
I agree except for a few points.

First, the income tax itself is the problem. Neither Obama nor McCain have any plans to reduce federal spending and are pretty much identical in that regards. It's really only a matter of if you want a huge federal government undertaking grand leftist programs, or if you want a huge federal government undertaking grand rightist programs. Aside from that, I agree mostly with your first paragraph.

The second paragraph, however, has some big issues. McCain's own party had a president in place that attempted to do this, yes, but the legislative comprised of both party members allowed it. I do not blame W for FIAT money; that is congress' doing for allowing it to happen. Democrats are as much to blame for republicans for these bad policies--even more for the past few years of Democrat superiority. Cough, cough, bank bailout. Also, I AM giving ways to get out of this mess by giving people reasons not to vote Dem OR Rep. Now that neither Kucinich nor Paul are running (the two that, by all rights, should have been the final for either party. If only people weren't flaming idiots), go third party. Dem and Rep options suck, big time.

I no longer see a difference between Democrat and Republican. FISA, retroactive immunity, bank bailout, PATRIOT, unconstitutionally large federal government, war on drugs, continued income tax and continuation of the Federal Reserve are all issues supported in a "bipartisan" effort. We need fresh bodies in congress.

I also find it interesting that you bring up Clinton balanced budgeting. Clinton does not get credit for that, that was merely a combination of receiving a relatively healthy economy, the dot-com bubble, and the housing bubble that he himself helped create with his "everyone must have a house, so I'm forcing banks to give risky loans" nonsense. We're paying for that now.

Thirdly, if the U.S. Government is corrupt, then the founding fathers have a response to that too. Soap box, ballot box, jury box, ammo box--in that order. That, of course, assumes that people aren't mindless droolers drilled in with nationalistic nonsense. Good thing we don't have a department of education that's specifically stated this was its goal to accomplish...

Edit: Thanks for the discussion, by the way!
 

Anton P. Nym

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Bronzebow said:
First, the income tax itself is the problem. Neither Obama nor McCain have any plans to reduce federal spending and are pretty much identical in that regards. It's really only a matter of if you want a huge federal government undertaking grand leftist programs, or if you want a huge federal government undertaking grand rightist programs. Aside from that, I agree mostly with your first paragraph.

The second paragraph, however, has some big issues. McCain's own party had a president in place that attempted to do this, yes, but the legislative comprised of both party members allowed it. I do not blame W for FIAT money; that is congress' doing for allowing it to happen. Democrats are as much to blame for republicans for these bad policies--even more for the past few years of Democrat superiority. Cough, cough, bank bailout. Also, I AM giving ways to get out of this mess by giving people reasons not to vote Dem OR Rep. Now that neither Kucinich nor Paul are running (the two that, by all rights, should have been the final for either party. If only people weren't flaming idiots), go third party. Dem and Rep options suck, big time.

I no longer see a difference between Democrat and Republican. FISA, retroactive immunity, bank bailout, PATRIOT, unconstitutionally large federal government, war on drugs, continued income tax and continuation of the Federal Reserve are all issues supported in a "bipartisan" effort. We need fresh bodies in congress.

I also find it interesting that you bring up Clinton balanced budgeting. Clinton does not get credit for that, that was merely a combination of receiving a relatively healthy economy, the dot-com bubble, and the housing bubble that he himself helped create with his "everyone must have a house, so I'm forcing banks to give risky loans" nonsense. We're paying for that now.

Thirdly, if the U.S. Government is corrupt, then the founding fathers have a response to that too. Soap box, ballot box, jury box, ammo box--in that order. That, of course, assumes that people aren't mindless droolers drilled in with nationalistic nonsense. Good thing we don't have a department of education that's specifically stated this was its goal to accomplish...

Edit: Thanks for the discussion, by the way!
You're welcome. I too enjoy discussing as opposed to declaring, even with those who have entirely different ideas. That's what freedom of speech was intended for, and why I try to defend it as much as I can.

I do agree with you that the Democrats share a big chunk of blame for the current mess, in not standing up to the grosser abuses of federal power and instead going along with gutting your Constitution and slavishly voting more phantom dollars to fund this Iraqi production of Kafka street theatre. Maybe if they'd had some solid leadership... but, then again, maybe if there'd been more "mavericks" in the GOP just saying no... augh, you guys need a viable third party to keep the main two honest. (Call it more competition in the ideas market.)

I disagree, though, that it was Clinton's policies that set up the housing bubble. That, I'm afraid, came from overselling asset-backed commercial paper and predatory sub-prime mortgage rates... both of which assumed that the bubble would never burst, contrary to any reasonable analysis and to history. That's a Wall St. problem, and blaming it on "gubmint distortion" is more blame-shifting than valid complaint in my view. I do think that Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac do share some blame for dubious lending terms, but I think there the problem was inadequate oversight due to faulty deregulation terms and not beyond-the-metaphorical-grave Clintonian interference.

Ugh, more points but no more time. Ahl be bock.

-- Steve
 

Tsuchitani

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Obama has the best of intentions, and his plan looks good on paper, but in reality the upper-class wont be paying for the lower-class. Instead it will be the middle class. Traditionally it has always been the middle-class who pays the majority of taxes. The rich are able to evade taxes in many ways, leaving their slack for the middle-class to pick up. As for lower- class not having to pay income tax, it isn't as noble as it sounds. A percentage of money from a percentage of people who don't have much money to start with? How much revenue would that generate? Programs like welfare are abused and exploited. In California there is a certain period of time in which you may receive unemployment benefits. In other states people are free to leech of the system as long as they want. Capitalism is based on the idea that you get what you earn.
 

EzraPound

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Economic Freedom of the World, by Milton Friedman, is the most referenced study of economic freedom's correlation to standards of living and growth. That study has shown that economic freedom correlates strongly with higher average income per person, higher income of the poorest 10%, higher life expectancy, higher literacy, lower infant mortality, higher access to water sources and less corruption. Economic freedom is tracked by 38 variables. Obama's socialist policies would move us lower on the economic freedom index, and thereby correlate with lower average income, lower life expectancy, etc etc.
Friedman's model has, admittedly, been massively influential, but to suggest that it's the be-all end-all of economic analysis is fairly naïve, particularly when 1) the westernized nations with the highest living standards are some of the most compromising adopters of Friedman's ideas, 2) many writers and economists have actively spoken out against Friedman's writings, and stated that their natural extension is a society with greater gross wealth that's not effectively redistributed, and 3) the United States - the world's biggest advocate of lazee faire economics - just approved a bailout package that constitutes one of the largest acts of socialism in world history, and which was complimented by the prime-time TV commentary of one Jim Cramer: "we're all communists now."

From what basis do you conclude that the role of government is to "generate equality"? That's a gigantic normative, ethical claim which a huge portion of Americans, and our Founding Fathers, would probably disagree with.
I didn't mean to infer that the cultivation of 'equality' is the normative standard by which all governments will measure their achievement, but simply that when Americans assert that their country offers "equal opportunity" the claim is somewhat paradoxical, as America is so aggressively backward in its social policies (it's an anamoly among westernized nations in so many ways: high poverty, high crime, high religious worship - this one must have some positive implications - irrationally nationalistic politics) that many of its citizens are born into settings in which success is virtually unattainable.

False. Leftist policies reduce economic growth. The young are the biggest beneficiaries of economic growth, as the growth compounds throughout their lifetime. Moreoever, socialist policies of the more moderate sort you are proposing almost always involve a redistribution from the working (young) to the non-working (elderly). They also serve to put a damper on your income through higher taxation, which in turn prevents you from savings and capital accumulation that would enable you to gain social mobility.
Your presumption is based on the notion that centre-left policies lead to massive reductions in economic growth and standard of living, when in actuality they typically benefit the majority of people (if not the gross wealth of society, which is still unchanged enough to justify the model). In Canada tuitions are far lower than in the United States as a result of government subsidization. Is that worth remarking? Inevitably, many young people who would have difficulties gaining an education in the U.S. are able to garner one here, and subsequently pursue careers in the service sector that help rapidize our shift to a contemporary economy.

Of course, Canada has its problems, too: some of our provinces - ones that spent a long time under far-left rule come to mind, excepting B.C. - cultivated governments that weren't receptive to economic growth, thereby crippling their economies to the point where provinces with more realistic models had to buoy them year after year (this was more prevalent in the nineties than today, though it still exists). But it's hard to describe a province like Ontario, that uses a centrist model and manages to 1) have far less crime than the United States, 2) have far less poverty than the United States, and 3) actively support its business sector and produce surpluses while paying $10b a year out in transfer payments - as any kind of failure.

Also, everyone here who keeps citing the European model really needs to review simple demographics. Demographics is destiny. Demographics says the European model is BROKEN. They can't sustain their welfare state; welfare economics reduced the birth rate, and with fewer children, there aren't enough workers to pay for it, and the population is aging so fast, the whole system will simly collapse. It's game over in a generation.
Uh... the incompetence of American policymaking just resulted in their triggering potentially the largest recession in the past century, short of the great depression. The U.S. has debt coming out of its ears. And you think things are going worse in Europe? Apparently, welfare states are a lot more sustainable than unilaterial military takeovers and pseudo-libertarian economic models that come with their own array of problems.

And noone could sustain their welfare state in holistic terms after the recession of the eighties, including the United States. But that doesn't mean that it's economically or pragmatically intelligent to abandon the idiom of social compassion entirely. Your comment about birthrates is deft, too: yes, Canada and most of Europe have lower birth rates than the United States (and if you look at who in the U.S. is having the children, you're essentially priding your country on its own impovershment anyway), but Canada is in the throes of addressing the problem via allowing more immigration, hence our even more-than-in-America vehemence about multicultural tolerance.

Let's not inflict that on America.
What? Lower poverty? Lower crime? A more even redistribution of wealth? People come from all over the industrialized world and chuckle at how backward American social policies are, and the extent to which the country has convinced itself regressive models are somehow akin to patriotism. And FYI: I'm not anti-American - the country has an exuberant artistic history, a culture that's unique and commendable (far moreso than Canada's), and its citizens are byinlarge intelligent and personable people. I just wish it could implement governmental decision-making that did its multifaceted greatness justice.

P.S. I volunteered for the Conservative Party in the last Canadian election, who are - like many of the conservative parties in the developed world - somewhere left of the Democrats, and Barack Obama.

Every socialist society has lead to a dictatorship and then crumbled under it's own stupidity. The concept is stupid, the practice is idiotic, and the supporters are hippie pot smoking college students who are going to be embarrassed with themselves when they look back on this type of idiocy. Socialism is NOT a good thing, and it has never BEEN a good thing.
Except that Barack Obama hardly qualifies as a 'social democrat', and I don't see Canada going to hell in a handbasket any time soon.

I might add that this $250k limit of taxes for Obama? That includes businesses, thanks to corporate personhood. Tax business, lose jobs. Lose jobs, we get deeper into this rabbit hole.
This is incredibly oversimplified - the supposed American axiom of of "tax more, vaporize economy" is baseless, particularly when the amount of poverty in the United States, for example, is causally a large part of what prevents their economy from being as efficient as possible. Moreover 'economy' is not tantamount to 'standard of living' - the latter of which being the gauge by which the benefits of living in westernized countries are generally gauged (the leaders in this are typically the Norwegian countries; Canada and Australia).