Bayonetta as a role model

[The_root_of_all_evil]

So...do YOU see GandG as being sexist towards men?

I think that the "sexist" role of the woman being the objective is the same as the male being the warrior that has to go through hell just to get a damn kiss.

And, ok...so, do the majority of men finnd Bayonetta attractive?

Doesn't matter. We've already established that if anyone does, then it's sexist. And if anyone doesn't, it's also sexist.

I'm just trying to find a point where we can say "Yes, that's right", instead of "I'm appalled by your unspoken insinuations, whatever they may be."

 

[Legion IV]

I hated bayonetta. Biggest dissipointment of the last decade. I pre ordered it everything i am one of the biggest dmc fans ever so i was like am in there am getting it. midnight launch baby. like hell the dude who did dmc1 made it so i couldnt miss that at all. it was just wow.

Shes overly sexualized in every way. Shes a gaint fetish. Like really her super moves maker he go naked. The ending credits is her dancing and shaking her ass as she flashed from almost naked to clothed. I felt embarrsed and thats coming from a guy who loved FFX-2. Then i found out the developer was upset that bayonetta porn was popping up. Have you seen the way you made your chracter! shes just eye candy thats it!. Bayonetta is just like dead or alive!

There was an interveiw with him and he commented on all the hard work it took to make her ass prefect. Like %^&% really? I returned it. Its just wow. I'll stick to my devil may cry 1-4 and thats it.

 

[oldskoolandi]

And, ok...so, do the majority of men finnd Bayonetta attractive? If we assume that 60% of men who play the game find her sexually desirable, does that mean that the other 40% are wrong or weird for NOT wanting her?
In the same way, if 60% of women find the GandG guy sexually attractive, does this mean he can't be anything deeper to the other 40%? Are the 40% WRONG for seeing past the sexual and aesthetic aspects to something more meaningful? Forget about what the original intention of the developers was, because each person's interpretation will be different, and specific to them.
This is about YOUR analysis, not what you believe the developers want you to see.

I certainly wouldn't say 40% of people are weird or wrong if they dont find her attractive, it's all down to personal tastes. Maybe some people find glasses a turn off, or prefer blondes, whatever the reason might be. That applies equally to any game character.

I also wouldn't say 40% are wrong for seeing something deeper in a protagonist, and of course we shouldn't preclude the possibility of people being capable of finding a character both sexually desirable and still seeing something deeper and more meaningful about them, whatever that individuals interpretation may be.

 

[Something Amyss]

...are you trolling?
I understand that you have your opinions, and they obviously differ to mine! But you can't say that I'm not seeing those things and have to go out of my way to justify her behaviour. People are coming up with things, I'm countering them with examples from the game/dialogue itself. I DO see these things in her, the tenderness vs. the sexuality, otherwise I wouldn't have posted this.

But what do you mean, "shame"? I don't think Bayonetta has any shame. And, if I was truly like her, I'd like to think I'd be damn proud for not trying to hide who I really was.

You have to make shit up to justify yourself. You have to play two sides against one another to make it work. I'm not trolling, your logic is terrible.

I understand you want her to be a feminist icon. The idea that she is is rather silly, however. Perhaps English is not your first language, as some of yoru posts might indicate and you are working off of different concepts. I doubt it, however, as anyone who thinks Bayonetta is a more realistic woman than Lara Croft is either grasping at straws or woefully misinformed about human anatomy. And before anyone cuts in on me, this is an SAT question: We're not going for who is realistic, but which one best fits the answer.

Trying to indicate that a feminist icon takes no nonsense but then has to hide that same element from a child? I mean, what reason is there besides shame? Little girls shouldn't be exposed to "feminism?" What tripe!

Call me a troll if you want, but your argument's a house of cards. And I don't mind differing opinions, but opinions not based on sound reasoning are not worth the air wasted upon uttering them. I treat your argument with the same seriousness of any other poorly constructed opinion, be it flat earthers, 9-11 truthers, or the "wishful thinking" crowd (It's true because I want it to be true). You seem to fit into that last group pretty neatly.

Or, I'm just trolling, because I'm not telling you what you want to hear and that endangers your house of cards. It's a shame you seem more inclined to believe the latter, since it's inline with your theory of Bayonetta as a feminist icon; I want it to be true, and damn logic!

 

[Something Amyss]

Feminism = sexism.​

only if one completely disregards the terms.

Kinda like saying "abortion is murder." It's a nice bumper slogan, but it doesn't have a lick of truth to it.

 

[Rachel317]

I think that the "sexist" role of the woman being the objective is the same as the male being the warrior that has to go through hell just to get a damn kiss.
Doesn't matter. We've already established that if anyone does, then it's sexist. And if anyone doesn't, it's also sexist.

I don't think it's sexist to find her attractive or not. To be honest, this topic isn't particularly about her looks, just personality and general attitude.
But on the general looks thing, I must say that I find her attractive. Obviously that's just my personal opinion, so its not like the developers tried to make a woman who could only appeal to men. I'm not sexually attracted to her, but she's a beautiful character, IMO.

EDIT: Also, I do agree about the male having to do all that stuff, usually for a woman. As much as I love the game, look at Enslaved. Big, muscular dude has to help little woman who can't defend herself. Sure, the relationship develops, but she still enslaves him to suit her own purposes. Nothing wrong with this kind of game but, in this context, you're very much within your rights to bring it up. Maybe game developers will never accurately present real life, but I suppose thats not what most people play games for; it's for the escapism, the dramatic, romanticised story.

Then i found out the developer was upset that bayonetta porn was popping up. Have you seen the way you made your chracter! shes just eye candy thats it!. Bayonetta is just like dead or alive!

So, doesn't this suggest that the developers didn't create her to be purely an object of sexual desire? Just because a woman (IRL) dresses seductively, does this mean there is nothing more to her personality beyond the sexual stuff? Or...is it just that society makes us BELIEVE that all humans are shallow, and only one thing truly defines them? I'm slightly upset at the pornographic images of her turning up because, although she has that element, she's so much more as a character. Thats like saying a woman who dresses in short skirts deserves to be raped.

I also wouldn't say 40% are wrong for seeing something deeper in a protagonist, and of course we shouldn't preclude the possibility of people being capable of finding a character both sexually desirable and still seeing something deeper and more meaningful about them, whatever that individuals interpretation may be.

Most true. I actually can't add anything to this, because you've put it so well.
I'm not saying that people who DON'T see Bay as an inspirational character are wrong either. Opinions will differ, of course. It just seems to me that it's mainly males who are saying she's, basically, a slut, whilst the females are saying she's more than that. I'm just trying to figure out which opinion is more accurate.

 

[oldskoolandi]

Most true. I actually can't add anything to this, because you've put it so well.
I'm not saying that people who DON'T see Bay as an inspirational character are wrong either. Opinions will differ, of course. It just seems to me that it's mainly males who are saying she's, basically, a slut, whilst the females are saying she's more than that. I'm just trying to figure out which opinion is more accurate.

I'd be surprised if many men put much thought into whether or not they see characters as feminist icons. From what's been said, it seems that video game characters women can actually identify with are rare, so it should be likely that when one does come along women do recognize that.

Men are more likely to simply say 'Yeah, I would/ Nah not my type' and leave it at that.

 

[Rachel317]

You have to make shit up to justify yourself. You have to play two sides against one another to make it work. I'm not trolling, your logic is terrible.

I understand you want her to be a feminist icon. The idea that she is is rather silly, however. Perhaps English is not your first language, as some of yoru posts might indicate and you are working off of different concepts. I doubt it, however, as anyone who thinks Bayonetta is a more realistic woman than Lara Croft is either grasping at straws or woefully misinformed about human anatomy. And before anyone cuts in on me, this is an SAT question: We're not going for who is realistic, but which one best fits the answer.

Trying to indicate that a feminist icon takes no nonsense but then has to hide that same element from a child? I mean, what reason is there besides shame? Little girls shouldn't be exposed to "feminism?" What tripe!

Call me a troll if you want, but your argument's a house of cards. And I don't mind differing opinions, but opinions not based on sound reasoning are not worth the air wasted upon uttering them. I treat your argument with the same seriousness of any other poorly constructed opinion, be it flat earthers, 9-11 truthers, or the "wishful thinking" crowd (It's true because I want it to be true). You seem to fit into that last group pretty neatly.

You are quite annoying, aren't you? I ask if you're trolling because you don't seem to be contributing much other than a personal attack on me, as opposed to the ideas presented. I'm all for opposing opinions. If you'd read through the whole of this topic, you'd see that I've happily engaged people in conversation who have believed exactly the opposite of myself. That's what this thread is about. However, I take exception at people saying English is not my first language. Who do you actually think you are? Many more people have understand what I'm getting at than not, and have crafted their own arguments as to why they agree/disagree. You, on the other hand, seem to have missed the point entirely, and are criticising me personally as opposed to the post/arguments.
You're one of those people who can't bear to be wrong, aren't you? Of course I would like Bayonetta to be an icon, otherwise I WOULDN'T HAVE POSTED THIS. However, I think this particular argument should be left alone; neither of us is going to change our opinion.

Also, it's not about "shame"... Bayonetta doesn't HIDE the sexuality from Cereza, she does a sexy dance right in front of the girl when they hijack a missile. She tones down the sexuality, because children are innocent, and shouldn't necessarily be presented with OTT sexuality before they are mature enough. However, there are things BESIDES Bayonetta's sexuality which women AND children can learn from, ie, her confidence and strength (emotionally and mentally).
Why constantly focus on the sexual stuff when I, and other contributors, have expressed other ideas?

 

[Rachel317]

I'd be surprised if many men put much thought into whether or not they see characters as feminist icons. From what's been said, it seems that video game characters women can actually identify with are rare, so it should be likely that when one does come along women do recognize that.

Men are more likely to simply say 'Yeah, I would/ Nah not my type' and leave it at that.

Yes..."I would so hit that!"
I didn't necessarily post this topic to then be able to say, "Well, OF COURSE men aren't going to understand the implications of feminism" or "OF COURSE women will think she's a slut" or whatever. The opposing view points, largely fuelled by gender differences, are very interesting.

 

[Ahiru77]

Bayonetta: I'm every woman.

Kay....

 

[kouriichi]

Congrats Rachel, you actually said stuff so utterly absurd as to make me register an account just to respond. *claps*

*snipped in spots*

1. Bayonetta does not shy away from her sexuality. As we all know, that game is laden with sexual references, innuendo and partial nudity. However, I don't believe that the creators specifically created Bayonetta to be the sexual object that people have claimed. Her sexuality is part of her character, it's not just thrown in as sleazy pleasure on the side. When women were oppressed, their sexuality was something to be seen as shameful. History is littered with evidence of this. Surely, by embracing her sexuality so completely, using her sexuality to create highly powerful, highly charged attacks to despatch her enemies, it's safe to say that Bayonetta is the epitome of the things feminism strives and stands for?
-I don't even know where to begin but here's a start: YOU ARE WRONG. And here's why.
-Bayonetta is a blatent, perversive, shamefully overly-sexualized wet-dream-in-a-game. Its one the most utterly shameful representations of women ever done in a video game since 'Dead or Alive Extreme Beach Volleyball' was made. Or perhaps 'The Guy Game' with that barely-18 girl that got the game recalled.
-The glasses are a gimmick, nowhere does it show in her 'background' that she's educated or worldly. You have the fucking nerve to compare her to Lara Croft, when at least Lara has an extensively educated background (at least till its retconned in the new series) where she graduated from top British Universities and so on. She makes it a point to even brag about it whenever you go to her 'manor' in various of the older Tomb Raider games. Yes even Lara was a sex object in marketing materials, however you didn't really have her flashing a lot of skin in-game, just wearing a lot of tight outfits.
-Bayonetta strips naked because her entire outfit is made of her hair. Ok fine, points for creativity, but it also gives them an excuse to strip her anytime she does a 'special move', wtf now? How's that empowering again? The crap that Bayonetta does that counts for 'combat' seems like some wacked-up quicktime events from a 3rd-rate hentai game.
-Even one of the artists spent 'hours sculpting the perfect ass', so I fail to see how she couldn't be seen as a perversion of a guy's wet-dream even when the artists fell for it.
-You honestly believe that sexuality is what empowers a woman? You have a seriously warped view on both true femininity and empowerment. What empowers a woman is *confidence*, not necessarily sexuality. Being even moderately attractive, but *very* confident, THAT is empowerment, to get what you want WITHOUT having to debase yourself as a fucking piece of meat! Guess what? Stripping naked to perform 'special attacks' is exactly the OPPOSITE of empowerment, its shameless servitude to the desires of the men who created her.

2. Bayonetta is a strong, powerful, highly independent woman. Even Lara Croft has males at her side, helping her. Sure, Bayonetta has Luka (and Rodin and Enzo to a certain extent, although they can largely be ignored, because they don't affect gameplay), but he's only really there to look after Cereza when Bayonetta is kicking Angel arse. She is completely independent and, on the odd occasions when she fights with a partner, it is always Jeanne. Platinum Games presents an environment that truly is a "Woman's World"; even Jubileus, the Creator, is a female, whereas the angels are referred to as "boys" at every turn.
-Bayonetta is only as 'strong' as her magic lets her be.
-Bayonetta is so independent that she has to resort to summoning demons/monsters to do most of her fighting for her. Really now? She's a gussied-up version of a warlock, nothing more.
-Lara Croft has males at her side!? WHEN!? WHEN!? Are you referring to that shit-storm of a game, Angel of Darkness? Or her 'sidekick' that was only there briefly and ended up betraying her anyways? Lara specifically does NOT trust males, period! Especially in the line of work that she's in! She does what she has to in order to get what she wants, once she has that she cares less about them.

3. I'll probably be berated for this, but I believe that Bayonetta represents the female form better than a lot of other female characters and women in the media. Yes, her limbs are exaggerated, but she actually has curves, an ass, she has breasts and she's not particularly skinny/size zero, which is what the media too often presents as perfection. Sure, she's slim (hell, she fights angels for a living, she has to be in great shape), but she bears more resemblance to real females than some others I've seen.
-WRONG! Bayonetta has the most disproportionate limbs of just about any 'realistic' female video game character outside of fighting games. Have you seen her legs!? How does one perform acrobatics with those absurd shoes!? And I'm not sure where you got 'skeletal female = hawtness' from, but maybe you have ignored EVERY SINGLE FIGHTING GAME EVER that is the exact opposite of that, with plenty of 'T&A'. Even outside of fighting games, the most common portrayal of video game females is a well-endowed and 'bootylicious' woman. Bayonetta is a freakishly-long-legged spider-woman that seems nothing more than a sick perversion of true woman, NOT a role model!

4. This is slightly taken out of context (I'm a Literature student, it's what I do ), but Bayonetta protects Cereza and tells her that she is a "strong, little girl" and that "there is nothing [she] cannot overcome." This is such a lovely sentiment; if the women playing this game can apply this to their own lives, then Bayonetta could be a catalyst in inspiring a generation of strong women with perseverance, intelligence and confidence, both sexually and otherwise.
-Wow...you want inspiration dear? Not from Bayonetta, but instead from Terra, from Celes, from Samus, hell...from Lara Croft even. Inspiration is having the will to go on after the world is completely decimated and all your friends are either dead or gone and you're stuck all fucking alone on an island with the only friend you've had for the past few months who just DIED because you fucking FAILED to give him healthy fish! And then you jump off a fucking cliff in a suicide attempt and only survive because a seagull manages to find your broken corpse and nurse you back to health! THAT is fucking inspiration, not a one-line-canned ass response from Bayonetta!
-You want real literature and tenacity? You want a decent story? Go play FF6. Really.

5. Bayonetta is completely comfortable in her own skin. Admittedly, she IS gorgeous, with a body to be proud of, and seems to be just as comfortable naked as she is fully clothed. Despite how beautiful she is, she's also teaching a great lesson because, if more women could feel comfortable with themselves, we'd be in a much happier place. Bayonetta never claims to be gorgeous but rather seems to be largely oblivious. She DOES say to Luka, "Do I LOOK like I have any interest in children?", referencing her body. But that could be more about how in shape she is as opposed to how hot she is. As I say, she never makes a reference to her own BEAUTY as opposed to BODY which suggests that you can still be confident and sexy, even if you're relatively average-looking.
-Bayonetta is shamelessly flaunting her T&A because she is a vapid, shallow, hallow shell of a witch that has little to nothing to offer beyond her looks.


To wrap this up. You're looking for a 'role model' in the wrong place. Completely wrong place. Bayonetta is shameless flaunting of T&A. She's a convulated collection of fetishes. There are many other examples of real feminism and empowerment (FF6, Metroid series). True female empowerment is the ability of a woman to have both the confidence and desire to bypass artificially-imposed societal expectations and rise above to fulfill her true potential. Whether its being 'the best mother EVAR' or becoming a docter/nurse/lawyer or whatever. Its having the CHOICE of a woman being able to choose her own future and not having it decided for her, THAT is empowerment. This can all be done minus overt T&A flaunting/sexuality.

@ the Mods: I know, I know. I probably won't be posting again but hopefully this can stay up long enough to just make its point.

^ I second your post ^
If they really wanted her to be an Icon for women, she would be a role model for people to follow. Not some over-sexualized being.

Even her role is that of a steriotype. Shes a "Witch". Doesnt that kinda stand against what feminists want? Breaking the steriotype of women being weak, evil, or un-equal to men?

And i agree with you on the issue of her being completely unrealistic. 90% of all women dont have mile long legs, massive breasts, and a perfict behind. And most of them would never dream of wearing a suit half that tight unless theyer trying to turn tricks. Shouldent we be trying to get women out of skin tight suits, constantly blabbing sexual remarks?

Im all for strong, independant women, but theres a line you have to draw.

If that is your idea of what women should be, theres something horribly wrong with you.

 

[Rachel317]

Bayonetta: I'm every woman.

Kay....

Nobody insinuated that.
Name one male character who is TRULY an every man. And Gordion from Half Life doesn't count, because he doesn't speak, thus the player is invited to create his personality and backstory, or possibly even to project themselves on to him.
One character with a fully developed personality with the same, normal conflicts, problems, strengths and weaknesses as a normal guy. They don't exist, because they're fantasy people. They may be conflicted on some levels, but other than Homer Simpson in the Simpson games, a fantasy "every man" doesn't exist, because they're not fun to play.

 

[oldskoolandi]

If they really wanted her to be an Icon for women, she would be a role model for people to follow. Not some over-sexualized being.

Even her role is that of a steriotype. Shes a "Witch". Doesnt that kinda stand against what feminists want? Breaking the steriotype of women being weak, evil, or un-equal to men?

And i agree with you on the issue of her being completely unrealistic. 90% of all women dont have mile long legs, massive breasts, and a perfict behind. And most of them would never dream of wearing a suit half that tight unless theyer trying to turn tricks. Shouldent we be trying to get women out of skin tight suits, constantly blabbing sexual remarks?

Im all for strong, independant women, but theres a line you have to draw.
If that is your idea of what women should be, theres something horribly wrong with you.

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with being sexualised, and I don't agree that Bayonetta is over-sexualised. Sex is one of the most basic parts of our nature, why can't a role model embrace that?

She's also probably the least stereotypical 'Witch' I know of. No pointy hat or hooked nose here. Not sure witches were ever the antithesis of feminists either, nor were witches ever exclusively female.

As for the issue of her being unrealistic, the OP already addressed that her limbs were exaggerated. Nor does she have massive breasts to be fair.

 

[Rachel317]

-snip-

Again, you're another who has missed the point COMPLETELY. What do I have to say to make people realise that we shouldn't be focusing on her appearance? FFS, I addressed the absurdity of her limb length in the original post, if everyone would care to read it properly.

Can we get back to focusing on her personality, attitude and deeper characteristics rather than her appearance, PLEASE?

Also, being a witch doesn't mean to say she's evil. She helps to maintain the balance between Light and Dark (not necessarily Good and Evil) so that the world is not thrown into Chaos. The supposed "Good guys", to pair it down to your basic analysis, were attacking innocent people (the Angels attack Luka, and killed his father), actually. And bearing in mind, Father Balder was responsible for "this nightmare", so obviously the Umbran Witches aren't the "bad guys" at all.

I suggest you actually look into the topic before spouting inane assumptions and guesses.
And also, her breasts weren't massive, they are notably smaller than Lara Croft's, yet people still consider her to be an icon.

Why wouldn't a real woman dress in a cat suit like that? I've SEEN women dress like that. If they are proud of their bodies, then who are you to say that they wouldn't or shouldn't dress in whichever way they please? Why shouldn't women explore their sexuality in whichever way they see fit? Oh, I know, because a woman who is proud of her body and likes to show it off is negatively labelled as a "slut" or trying to "turn tricks", as you say. Why do you assume that all women act in a specific way just to appeal to, and appease, men?
You strike me as quite sexist, even though you'll deny it.

 

[Rachel317]

Heh, I like how people in here hit a brick wall and can't get over the visual presentation of that character, incapable for any abstract thought that goes beyond the "obvious" and superficial which, in actuality, is just them imposing their church "morality" onto this.

Maybe the world simply isn't ready for this yet.

Exactly. It's extremely bloody frustrating. I'm getting sense from posters such as yourself and the women who have contributed, but most of the guys seem completely incapable of looking at this any deeper. I also suspect quite a few of them are sexist to begin with, so that doesn't help.

 

[kouriichi]

-snip-

Again, you're another who has missed the point COMPLETELY. What do I have to say to make people realise that we shouldn't be focusing on her appearance? FFS, I addressed the absurdity of her limb length in the original post, if everyone would care to read it properly.

Can we get back to focussing on her personality, attitude and deeper characteristics rather than her appearance, PLEASE?

Also, being a witch doesn't mean to say she's evil. She helps to maintain the balance between Light and Dark (not necessarily Good and Evil) so that the world is not thrown intk chaos. The supposed "Good guys", to pair it down to your basic analysis, were attacking innocent people (the Angels attack Luka, and killed his father), actually. And bearing in mind, Father Balder was responsible for "this nightmare", so obviously the Umbran Witches aren't the "bad guys".

I suggest you actully look into what the topic before spouting inane assumptions and guesses.

Im not spouting insane assumptions and guesses.

The image of a woman is one of the most important if you want to argue "Icon". Rosie the Riveter is an icon for strong, independant women. Ellen Degeneres is an icon for strong, independant women.

Bayonetta is and over-sexualized peice of eye candy. She moans, sucks on loli-pops, has vanishing clothing, summons deamons to do her bidding, and "tortures" things.
Shes basically a sadists wet dream made reality.
Buffy the Friggan Vampire slayer is more of an Icon the Bayonetta.

Even one peice of her wardrobe is there with no reason. Shimazaki, making of the game, has a thing for women with glasses. And her weapons wernt chosen for function. They were picked becasue Kamiya thought they would look hot in her hands. Shimazaki even loved the idea that her clothing would dissapere!
This character was basically designed around theyer sexual preferances and ideals.

You read waaaaay to much into the paper thin character.

 

[Rachel317]

Im not spouting insane assumptions and guesses.

The image of a woman is one of the most important if you want to argue "Icon". Rosie the Riveter is an icon for strong, independant women. Ellen Degeneres is an icon for strong, independant women.

I don't see either of those women as role models. But then, I'm not saying you're wrong for thinking differently. I view Baynetta much more analytically than you care to, and that's OK. But I take exception when you insinuate that I, along with the people who agree with me, am WRONG for an opinion.
I haven't said you're wrong, just that I disagree. The least you could do is show me the same respect.

Bayonetta is and over-sexualized peice of eye candy. She moans, sucks on loli-pops, has vanishing clothing, summons deamons to do her bidding, and "tortures" things.
Shes basically a sadists wet dream made reality.
Buffy the Friggan Vampire slayer is more of an Icon the Bayonetta.

Even one peice of her wardrobe is there with no reason. Shimazaki, making of the game, has a thing for women with glasses. And her weapons wernt chosen for function. They were picked becasue Kamiya thought they would look hot in her hands. Shimazaki even loved the idea that her clothing would dissapere!
This character was basically designed around theyer sexual preferances and ideals.

You read waaaaay to much into the paper thin character.

I'm entitled to read into a character as much as I please and, vice versa, you are entitled to view her as shallowly as you have done.

Fair enough, the developers created a woman who they would want to be with in real life. Do you think it's any different with Lara Croft? Huge breasts that would give her back ache if she was real? They're not designed for practicality, and I'm aware of how shallow males will look at her. However, as you may have noticed, some of the male contributors, and many of the female ones, are able to see past the physical appearance, to what I'm talking about. I am not suggesting that Bayonetta couldn't do with some refining, but...the lollies? Come on, how hilariously small are they? That's not a representation of oral sex, that's saying that, if she was real, Bayonetta would be WAY more than you could handle.

If we weren't expected to look at things more deeply, they wouldn't have given her a well-rounded personality, an intricate backstory, or much of anything. As I said in the original post, if it was all about sex and fan service, they'd have made the game an 18 certificate and included actual sexual acts. We analyse Shakespeare, Orwell, Wlde, Pope...why shouldn't we analyse the deeper aspects of video game characters too?

And, just so you know, one of the lead designers of Bayonetta herself was a woman.

 

[kouriichi]

[

Im not spouting insane assumptions and guesses.

The image of a woman is one of the most important if you want to argue "Icon". Rosie the Riveter is an icon for strong, independant women. Ellen Degeneres is an icon for strong, independant women.

Bayonetta is and over-sexualized peice of eye candy. She moans, sucks on loli-pops, has vanishing clothing, summons deamons to do her bidding, and "tortures" things.
Shes basically a sadists wet dream made reality.
Buffy the Friggan Vampire slayer is more of an Icon the Bayonetta.

Even one peice of her wardrobe is there with no reason. Shimazaki, making of the game, has a thing for women with glasses. And her weapons wernt chosen for function. They were picked becasue Kamiya thought they would look hot in her hands. Shimazaki even loved the idea that her clothing would dissapere!
This character was basically designed around theyer sexual preferances and ideals.

You read waaaaay to much into the paper thin character.

I'm entitled to read into a character as much as I please and, vice versa, you are entitled to view her as shallowly as you have done.

Fair enough, the developers created a woman who they would want to be with in real life. Do you think it's any different with Lara Croft? Huge breasts that would give her back ache if she was real? They're not designed for practicality, and I'm aware of how shallow males will look at her. However, as you may have noticed, some of the male contributors, and many of the female ones, are able to see past the physical appearance, to what I'm talking about. I am not suggesting that Bayonetta couldn't do with some refining, but...the lollies? Come on, how hilariously small are they? That's not a representation of oral sex, that's saying that, if she was real, Bayonetta would be WAY more than you could handle.

If we weren't expected to look a toot things more deeply, they wouldn't have given her a well-rounded personality, an intricate backstory, or much of anything. As I said in the original post, if it was all about sex and fan service, they'd have made the game an 18 certificate and included actual sexual acts. We analyse Shakespeare, Orwell, Wlde, Pope...why shouldn't we analyse the deeper aspects if video game characters too?

And, just so you know, one of the lead designers of Bayonetta herself was a woman.[/quote]
Oh yes, ofcourse. Shimazaki.
And i agree, Lara Croft's physical apperance is all about fanservice.

But Bayonetta's personality isnt exactly "Icon" worthy. If women should strive to be comfertable with theyer sexuality, strong, and independant, they could look to almost any women in modern videogames.

Theres more that makes an "icon". What about public perception? And impact on society. Lara Craft is more of an icon, because shes not only the precursor to strong, gun toting women of today, but she also revolutionized videogames as we knew them at the time. Back in 1996, Tomb Raider was easly one of the best games ever realeased. Shes reconginzed as the "Most Successful Human Videogame Heroine" or all time by Guinness Book of World Records, and her franchise has made more money then most could ever hope. Shes got her own comics, several big hit movies, and dozens of game realeases. ((thought, not all of them good.....))

Bayonetta isnt refined enough as a character, or as a franchise to really warrent the title of "Icon."

 

[warm slurm]

Buffy the Friggan Vampire slayer is more of an Icon the Bayonetta.

You make that sound like Buffy isn't much of a feminist icon. She's probably the biggest (from TV) for girls in the 90s/early 00s.