Being nice in Dishonored sucks.....

[The Heik]

Well I been playing Dishonored for about 2 hours now, and I'm starting to get really annoyed by something: Being nice in Dishonored is frustratingly annoying.

Having seen Yahtzee's review of the game, I knew about the whole morality mechanic in the game, and seeing as I'm generally a nice guy in most games I figured I'd do the same for this one.

Now I'm at least 3 dozen reloads in and I feel that is all due to "being a nice guy". Now in most games when an an enemy detects you there's usually an opportunity to deal with them before they call all their buddies to stomp on you. But being a nice guy, there doesn't seem to be any way that I know of to non-lethally take them down if I've been detected. So now I either have to fight off the mooks and earn the bad ending, or reload the last save and have to do it all over again. And it's not like being detected is a rare thing. You can misjudged a bit of distance with blink, and fall down and be detected. You can be trying to sneak past a checkpoint, only for the cover mechanic to shit on you and be detected. You could even be stealthing perfectly fine and be detected by a guard that you'd needed to have been clairvoyant to see.

Now had the game lacked the morality mechanic, it'd probably be no issue. But since the good ending requires that I limit my kills to the bare minimum, I feel as if I'm being put at an unfair handicap here. I'm already having to stash bodies and limit half my arsenal with the non-lethal playstyle, but now I have to replay entire sections of the map and save scum like it's going out of style too?

I got to say, this doesn't seem like much fun at all, which surprises me because I've been hearing a lot of good things about this game from everyone and their dog.

So am I missing something here, or is everyone just playing the naughty Corvo?

 

[Jimmy T. Malice]

Maybe you're trying too hard. I tried to be non-lethal in my first playthrough and ended up with high Chaos anyway, but in my second playthrough I went out of my way to kill people and on the third mission I'm still on low Chaos. Maybe it's because I used the non-lethal methods for the main targets.

But yeah, non-lethal in Dishonored sucks, especially if you don't have the Strong Arms bone charm that lets you choke people quickly. They give you an exciting arsenal of toys, and then don't want you to use them.

 

[Tamrin]

So am I missing something here, or is everyone just playing the naughty Corvo?

No, that was pretty much why the game couldn't land perfect scores left and right. They gave you all sorts of fun toys to lay waste to the enemies and yet to get the good ending you have to play the game ignoring what makes it such a fun game. On more than one occasion I actually felt that not killing certain people was worse than death. I had done something more evil than ending somebody's life and the game gives you sunny skies.

Spoiler: Read only if played

Seriously, who felt like the good guy after sending Lady Boyle with that creepy guy who gave you overly attached girlfriend chills?

 

[The Madman]

Just play the way you want to play and stop worrying about being 'nice' or 'good'. What a silly way to play a game. If you'd have more fun killing, then kill. Neither ending is spectacularly better than the other and frankly the story isn't exceptional anyway. It's the gameplay variety and excellent level design that are the stars of the show here, being able to play the game various ways with various tools and not have the game slap your hands away as so many other modern game do when you dare to try something different.

Me? I like stealth. Dishonored plays a lot like the old Thief games in terms of being sneaky, and I bloody love the Thief games. Enough so that I've played the Thief series multiple times and those games are *much* more brutal in regards to survival than Dishonored is. Had a lot of fun playing around with the various ability in Dishonored though and seeing how they could be used via stealthy means.

Meanwhile when I'm in the mood I'll load up a level I've completely and just go all murderous on those buggers. So damned satisfying!

 

[Octorok]

^ Yup. Play how you like and you'll probably enjoy it more. However, if you want to play non-lethal runs (which I do), then getting discovered is rarely an instant-reload penalty. In fact, some of my best moments have been those non-lethal getaways. It forces you to be creative. You have almost no time to plan, possibly no idea where you're headed, one set of sleep darts and whatever powers you like.

Possess a rat and jump into the sewer? Slow time and blink onto the roof? And then you've got the same problems as before, only worse. More guards, on high alert, searching every dark corner and damp alley.

I love this game. GOTY I think. Even better than XCOM.

And, I know you didn't ask for tips, but seriously - take the full time to consider your approach and you'd be amazed how rarely you'll have to reload, even on the highest difficulty, and this applies to both lethal or non-lethal runs.

 

[Tdoodle]

I went non-lethal and loved it. It takes a while to get going but once you've unlocked some of the second rank powers so you can see through walls, possess people, Blink further and stop time it's a lot less frustrating. Rather than groaning and reloading when I was caught out I could just stop time and hide or possess them and walk them somewhere quiet. Weapon upgrades (particularly the crossbow reload and combat sleep darts) are invaluable as well.

It's tougher at first but once you get the hang of the different spells it's no harder than a lethal playthrough. I did enjoy having a quick lethal streak during one of the missions near the end but going back to non-lethal afterwards wasn't any less fun or rewarding.

 

[Yokillernick]

But yeah, non-lethal in Dishonored sucks, especially if you don't have the Strong Arms bone charm that lets you choke people quickly. They give you an exciting arsenal of toys, and then don't want you to use them.

Totally this.

OT: I tried playing nice guy as well for the first level until I saw the huge arsenal of powers I had acquired and I thought to myself, "What am I doing with my life?". So I went in the next mission and killed everyone, shruging off sword blows like they were papercuts. So my advice is, if you hate playing nice go with kill everyone and you'll be enjoying the game a helluva lot more than if you went out of your way to be nice and ended up hating the game.

 

[Smeggs]

Gonna find my post from an older thread, brb...

Found it.

My problem was the main gameplay. It was good, but, honestly...

Nonlethal vs. Lethal: It's obvious they favor lethal attacks in this game, which comes at no surprise seeing as how it is based around what is meant to be a master assassin. However, the nonlethal actions leave a lot to be desired, and I mean A LOT.

There are only two nonlethal forms of attack (unless I somehow spent hours upon hours without figuring out some secret method of fighting) which would be Sleep Darts and choking people out. What I wanted to know in the first half hour of the game was why there was no melee attacking for non-lethal? Or a parry for non-lethal? I'm a master assassin, don't I know how to use my bare hands to overcome enemies? It seems completely idiotic that we can't knock someone out by sidestepping them or blocking their attack and slugging them in the jaw. Instead, a parry is instant death all the time, and you have nothing but your sword for melee.

Sleep darts have to be one of the most boring things in the world to use. Sleep Darts just make them swoon and fall over. For nonlethal spells we've got the Freeze Time, Possession, Dark Sight, and Blink abilities. Possession absolutely sucks on humans, the timer is far too short to actually be effective for anything but quickly walking through Walls of Light, and even then there's always an alternative route through the shadows you can take that is usually safer and has less chance of getting you spotted. Also, the fact you die if the thing you possess dies makes it completely useless for attacking. I thought I was being super sneaky sticking a razor trap on a rat, then possessing it and running at the enemy. Nope-Dead.

Meanwhile, over here in lethal land, we have incendiary bolts, crossbow bolts, razor traps, grenades, sword, gun, Devouring Swarm, Wind Blast (Level 2 seems to make it incredibly lethal), thrown Whale Oil Tanks, the Adrenaline skill, and Shadow Kill. They make the lethal route far more amusing and varied.

And unconscious people can die too easily. I had to restart a mission because one guy I was carrying I dropped about four feet to the ground from a ledge; cracked his damn skull open. Left an unconscious guy IN THE ROOM I KNOCKED HIM OUT IN, sweep by there later and discover he's been eaten by damned rats. Had to reload an autosave from nearly twenty minutes prior.

AND YET, this game is obviously meant to be stretched out via stealth. I don't get that, if you're a person who wants to go gung-ho with full lethal, you could easily slaughter your way through this game in a matter of a few hours. I honestly went back and started a new one using lethal just to guage my time; Overseer Campbell was dead in under five minutes, as opposed to my stealthy non-lethal approach which was about twenty minutes, at the least. So, wouldn't you want to make the non-lethal, more difficult to accomplish method a bit more interesting?

-Snip-

Thing is, and I feel pretty safe in saying this, a good chunk of those who went pacifist on their first playthrough were doing so so that they could get Clean Hands and the Ghost achievement at once, so simply running and hiding when you were discovered wouldn't save you. I suppose if you managed it before they hit full-alert...

 

[The Madman]

Clearly what the developers should have done is make it so that at the last level you get a dialogue option and can choose which ending you want. Perhaps they can put it in some sort of room with a series of buttons, or maybe have a conversation with a character who then gives you an option of which door to walk through.

Actually having the game take account of how you play is wrong. All choices should be binary, that way you can save right before decision time and try every option all at once. After all it's not like in real life killing dozens of people could have any ramifications.

Also stealth is silly. Clearly you should have no consequences whatsoever if you're caught, ever. Nothing should ever be challenging. No, the game needs a punch button that lets you knock people unconscious with ease allowing people who want the nonlethal achievement to get it without having to play differently from a violent playthrough. A stealth cloaking ability would be useful too for those who want the stealth achievement without all that pesky waiting around corners, being patient, or trying to avoid line of sight.

Achievements are more important than diverse gameplay.

 

[The Heik]

Just play the way you want to play and stop worrying about being 'nice' or 'good'. What a silly way to play a game. If you'd have more fun killing, then kill. Neither ending is spectacularly better than the other and frankly the story isn't exceptional anyway. It's the gameplay variety and excellent level design that are the stars of the show here, being able to play the game various ways with various tools and not have the game slap your hands away as so many other modern game do when you dare to try something different.

^ Yup. Play how you like and you'll probably enjoy it more. However, if you want to play non-lethal runs (which I do), then getting discovered is rarely an instant-reload penalty. In fact, some of my best moments have been those non-lethal getaways. It forces you to be creative. You have almost no time to plan, possibly no idea where you're headed, one set of sleep darts and whatever powers you like.

Just gonna respond you you both here, since you guys recommending the same thing of "play as you want", but the thing is that I like playing the non-lethal good guys. I enjoy the challenge of maneuvering around enemy forces and beating them without ever being detected, partly for pure challenge, partly for the karmatic "good" feeling, and partly because I love the idea of those guys getting yelled at by their boss afterwards (y'know, provided I didn't have to bump-off the boss)

It simply that this game seems to actively be punishing me for playing in a style that canonically is supposed to be the good one. For example, while you do get the sleeping darts for the crossbow (admittedly a very useful tool), ammo for it is rare and the same hand that uses the crossbow also controls my powers, so I'll always have the lethal sword that I never use equipped to my right hand and I have to go through quick-select to swap between non-lethal tools. Not only is that annoying to do, but it's flow breaking and feels like the lethal side is being unfairly favoured.

Also from what I've seen so far there is WAY more work needed to be done for non-lethal approach (Aside the from the aforementioned par-for-the-course body hiding and such). Best example from my experiences is taking down that Overseer Campbell fellow.

Spoiler: spoiler'd for those who haven't played it yet

the lethal takedown for him is to simply swap the glasses of poisoned wine (which is told to you in an unavoidable cutscene right before you get into the mission) then make like a banana and split once he kicks the bucket.

The non-lethal method on the other hand requires that I spill both glasses, trail the Overseer and his potential victim down 2 floors and past half a dozen guards to his secret room, knock him out before he stabs his victim, then carry the unconscious body back up those same 2 floors, knocking out all the guards I had to avoid on the way down, then go through a whole new part of the building, knocking out half a dozen more guards, then strapping him to an interrogation chair and branding him as "excommunicated"

Total lethal effort: a bit of maneuvering and one simple, easy to do action. 3 minutes at most from entry time to completion.

Total non-lethal effort: lots of maneuvering, high dart use, a dozen guards to knock out and hide, and a shit ton of things needed to complete, and easily 10+ minutes from entry time to completion

again, ignoring the usual things needed for non-lethal stealth, it does feel like I'm having to arbitrarily jump through a lot of hoops for effectively the same result. Maybe it's one of those "harder path better reward/easier path, shittier reward" things, I dunno.

And, I know you didn't ask for tips, but seriously - take the full time to consider your approach and you'd be amazed how rarely you'll have to reload, even on the highest difficulty, and this applies to both lethal or non-lethal runs.

Yeah, tried that. 3 times in 3 separate locations I've had a random guard pop up and detect me, despite me having scoured the level to figure out each mook's route. The game seems to spawn them from the woodwork, usually right when I'm about to finish the last leg of my plan (and I honestly have no idea where they come from. I've looked exactly where they come from and can never find them at all). And even if I catch them with a sleeping dart, the aforementioned need to swap usually slows me down just enough so that they usually alert their buddies and now I either use up every dart I have trying to down them all (handicapping myself later on), or I go back and reload the section.

 

[Octorok]

Just gonna respond you you both here, since you guys recommending the same thing of "play as you want", but the thing is that I like playing the non-lethal good guys. I enjoy the challenge of maneuvering around enemy forces and beating them without ever being detected, partly for pure challenge, partly for the karmatic "good" feeling, and partly because I love the idea of those guys getting yelled at by their boss afterwards (y'know, provided I didn't have to bump-off the boss)

It simply that this game seems to actively be punishing me for playing in a style that canonically is supposed to be the good one. For example, while you do get the sleeping darts for the crossbow (admittedly a very useful tool), ammo for it is rare and the same hand that uses the crossbow also controls my powers, so I'll always have the lethal sword that I never use equipped to my right hand and I have to go through quick-select to swap between non-lethal tools. Not only is that annoying to do, but it's flow breaking and feels like the lethal side is being unfairly favoured.

Also from what I've seen so far there is WAY more work needed to be done for non-lethal approach (Aside the from the aforementioned par-for-the-course body hiding and such). Best example from my experiences is taking down that Overseer Campbell fellow.

Spoiler: spoiler'd for those who haven't played it yet

the lethal takedown for him is to simply swap the glasses of poisoned wine (which is told to you in an unavoidable cutscene right before you get into the mission) then make like a banana and split once he kicks the bucket.

The non-lethal method on the other hand requires that I spill both glasses, trail the Overseer and his potential victim down 2 floors and past half a dozen guards to his secret room, knock him out before he stabs his victim, then carry the unconscious body back up those same 2 floors, knocking out all the guards I had to avoid on the way down, then go through a whole new part of the building, knocking out half a dozen more guards, then strapping him to an interrogation chair and branding him as "excommunicated"

Total lethal effort: a bit of maneuvering and one simple, easy to do action. 3 minutes at most from entry time to completion.

Total non-lethal effort: lots of maneuvering, high dart use, a dozen guards to knock out and hide, and a shit ton of things needed to complete, and easily 10+ minutes from entry time to completion

again, ignoring the usual things needed for non-lethal stealth, it does feel like I'm having to arbitrarily jump through a lot of hoops for effectively the same result. Maybe it's one of those "harder path better reward/easier path, shittier reward" things, I dunno.

Against this I can offer no defense. The fact that Dishonored offers you punishment for killing people, by actually using the variety of tools at your disposal, and that the effort required for some of the lethal/non-lethal target options is wonky, is by far the game's biggest flaw. Best advice here is the same given by everybody else on the internet - do one non-lethal playthrough for meticulous stealthy sneakfun, and one stabful murderous lethal playthrough of death.

Yeah, tried that. 3 times in 3 separate locations I've had a random guard pop up and detect me, despite me having scoured the level to figure out each mook's route. The game seems to spawn them from the woodwork, usually right when I'm about to finish the last leg of my plan (and I honestly have no idea where they come from. I've looked exactly where they come from and can never find them at all). And even if I catch them with a sleeping dart, the aforementioned need to swap usually slows me down just enough so that they usually alert their buddies and now I either use up every dart I have trying to down them all (handicapping myself later on), or I go back and reload the section.

Huh. I find this remarkable. I suppose I simply chalk this up to the chaos of the universe, in the same way that Fallout: New Vegas ran 99.5% bug free for me. I have never had this happen to me. For the record, I tend to play very slow, methodical, non-lethal runs, on the hardest difficulties. I don't know if difficulty affects guard spawns.

Without any knowledge or experience to speak from, I have only advice off the top of my head - if you're planning something "big" (like taking out a target in a defined area) then try to clear out every single guard, no matter how absurdly irrelevant he may seem, and use Magic Super Eyes (I forget the term - look through walls and see dudes.) to check everywhere if you're concerned about interrupting guards.

As for the crossbow - use it in conjunction with Bend Time. One of my favourite ways of tackling more than one guard in an emergency is to Bend Time, switch to Sleep Darts, and drop them all before blinking away. You'll still get Alerted, but with a good escape route, you can probably drop 3 guards before Bend Time runs out, which is usually enough to deal with most small patrols.

 

[ultrachicken]

First of all, you forgot about the running away option. You don't have to fight, and in fact the game is designed with escape in mind. Furthermore, the bad ending, so long as you complete all of the optional objectives, isn't even that much worse than the good ending. So don't worry about it.

 

[daveman247]

snip

Yeah they could do with a few more non-lethal options. But i managed to adjust easily the second time through

Sounds like there is something wrong with your stratergy to be honest. Theres a wealth of upgrades to be had to help you. Choke people quicker, silent footsteps, upgrades for the dart gun so it has more ammo and works quicker. And then there is bend-time, and blink to upgrade too!

Seeing through walls should have been your first investment. It helps A LOT with planning and working out where people are.


I think they made a choice when making the game. For violence to be the easy way out, and non-lethal to be harder.

 

[kyogen]

Sorry it doesn't seem to suit you, OP, but I don't agree that it sucks. My first run was 0 detections, 0 kills on very hard, and I loved it. Being nice didn't suck for me. I don't think a few unpredictable guard routes and the possibility of missing jumps made the game less interesting. I quite enjoyed the possibility of failure.

I also think that it's a misnomer to characterize the game's consequences as good or bad. The system may function much like a good/bad morality system, but what's good at all about being an assassin out for revenge of one sort or another? Even at their brightest, the world and story are dark. The chaos/order distinction is more appropriate.

 

[Smeggs]

Clearly what the developers should have done is make it so that at the last level you get a dialogue option and can choose which ending you want. Perhaps they can put it in some sort of room with a series of buttons, or maybe have a conversation with a character who then gives you an option of which door to walk through.

Actually having the game take account of how you play is wrong. All choices should be binary, that way you can save right before decision time and try every option all at once. After all it's not like in real life killing dozens of people could have any ramifications.

Also stealth is silly. Clearly you should have no consequences whatsoever if you're caught, ever. Nothing should ever be challenging. No, the game needs a punch button that lets you knock people unconscious with ease allowing people who want the nonlethal achievement to get it without having to play differently from a violent playthrough. A stealth cloaking ability would be useful too for those who want the stealth achievement without all that pesky waiting around corners, being patient, or trying to avoid line of sight.

Achievements are more important than diverse gameplay.

The problem isn't that we want to play it violently, it's that the game wants us to play it violently, and does so by only giving us the two most basic and boring abilities to be non-violent.

You know what would actually make the gameplay diverse? More option for non-lethality.

 

[The Madman]

The problem isn't that we want to play it violently, it's that the game wants us to play it violently, and does so by only giving us the two most basic and boring abilities to be non-violent.

You know what would actually make the gameplay diverse? More option for non-lethality.

I disagree. Thief is, in my mind, inarguably the best stealth series out there and its methods of non-lethal takedown are a blackjack that's useful exclusively from behind and gas/moss arrow which are extremely rare and best used for other things. That's it. No magical abilities either, no stopping time and chocking from behind, no vanishing in a puff of smoke or pulling out a sleeping dart to KO your attacker within seconds. Then to add to that even Thief often put you against enemies or in situation where even those were limited.

See the problem with stealth is that the instant you give the player the option to be caught and not have consequences, it's not really stealth. Dishonored I feel actually did it quite well in that regard; you did have a ton of options, maybe just not the options you wanted. You could posses a person, you could stop time, you could blink somewhere they can neither see nor reach, you could just shoot em with a sleep dart (Of which the game provides far too many for my personal tastes), and of course you could just run away or fight them, fighting them obviously having consequences of its own.

The game doesn't provide a way to just get out of being caught (Except sleep darts, cheap things that they are), but it does provide plenty of means of mitigating being caught. Of escaping. And of course should you want to bear the consequences, to fight.

Consequences are good.

All this talk of 'not enough options' just makes me scratch my head and go "What game were you playing?". What do you want? A blackjack that accomplishes the same goal as the choke-hold? A magical punch that knocks out enemies so even if you're caught there are no repercussion? Sleeping power? Faerie dust? Smoke bombs? I'm genuinely confused, enlighten me.

 

[The Heik]

Without any knowledge or experience to speak from, I have only advice off the top of my head - if you're planning something "big" (like taking out a target in a defined area) then try to clear out every single guard, no matter how absurdly irrelevant he may seem, and use Magic Super Eyes (I forget the term - look through walls and see dudes.) to check everywhere if you're concerned about interrupting guards.

As for the crossbow - use it in conjunction with Bend Time. One of my favourite ways of tackling more than one guard in an emergency is to Bend Time, switch to Sleep Darts, and drop them all before blinking away. You'll still get Alerted, but with a good escape route, you can probably drop 3 guards before Bend Time runs out, which is usually enough to deal with most small patrols.

Yeah they could do with a few more non-lethal options. But i managed to adjust easily the second time through

Sounds like there is something wrong with your stratergy to be honest. Theres a wealth of upgrades to be had to help you. Choke people quicker, silent footsteps, upgrades for the dart gun so it has more ammo and works quicker. And then there is bend-time, and blink to upgrade too!

Seeing through walls should have been your first investment. It helps A LOT with planning and working out where people are.

predendum:Wow, you two seem to be zeroed on the same page. That's a nice bit of mental telepathy you two got going there.

OT: all those abilities are all well and good, but the problem stands that many of them aren't unlocked until one gets farther into the game. The Overseer Campbell example in particular had me with only the sight and blink abilities, both at minimum level (so both had only about 15ft worth of effect range and nothing else). I didn't really have much leeway in terms of engagement options at that point.

But it seems like I'll have more options later on, so I'll keep on pushing on. Maybe I'll take Octorok's advice and play it twice, but I'll start on a lethal playthrough to get a hang of the game's uniqueness first.

Well

So am I missing something here, or is everyone just playing the naughty Corvo?

sleep darts.
sleep darts.
sleep darts.

Any more questions?

Ya, where'd you get the seemingly endless supply of darts?

Because last I checked, you only get a max of 8 at the beginning and there's easily 50 guards or more per level. Even using the few darts you have you focus on key targets you'll still be out of shots quick. Besides, I usually save them for hairy moments when you have multiple simultaneous take-down targets.