Biden clenches the nomination.

[Saelune]

This is the election where you're supporting a Democrat unwaveringly in the face of policies that hate you and morals that fail you. Even more than HIllary in 2016, this is a watershed moment where the Democrat party defines itself as a party of the rich patriarchy.

Until you overthrow the government, you're just as guilty, if not more. Doing nothing means doing nothing.

 

[Agema]

This doesn't have much to do with your post, but who the fuck did the blacking out on this image? Is it supposed to be some form of ironic joke, to cover something with an obviously transparent layer? That's the real issue we need to adress here.

Potentially someone who was using a screen without sufficient brightness / contrast to notice they hadn't actually obscured the names.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Until you overthrow the government, you're just as guilty, if not more. Doing nothing means doing nothing.

I don't follow the logic, I'm just voting for someone who isn't a rapist.

Not A Rapist 2020, best candidate.

 

[Worgen]

To be fair the idea of a middle ground is very antiquated, if not completely obsolete in today's age.
Republicans want to illegally separate migrant children from their parents and confine them in cages until they starve to death.
Democrats don't.
What's the middle ground? Legally separate them? Confine then in not-cages? Let them die of dehydration instead?

Likewise the GOP don't want corporations to pay taxes, Dems do. What's the middle ground? They pay taxes, but in baked bean cases instead? Or half do and half don't, and it alternates every year?

See that's the problem with the middle ground in a country where the political sides are closer to all out war than they are to not. And I guarantee you if all the 'middle grounders' actually saw what the middle ground was between the GOP and Dems they'd cry in despair at how cruel it was.
Middle ground is for people who mostly agree and don't mind giving up small details for the greater good, not for two sides who disagree on if gays are people. Middle ground is for Riker and Picard, not Picard and the Borg

See, the problem here is that that can work for their side because they tend to almost want government to go away, so just by being obstructionist they can get their way. The US still has a huge moderate population that you have to appeal to. I'm not talking middle ground with ideas, but you do have to appeal to the moderate voters. We are also seeing exactly what their ideology leads us, to a government who can't manage a pandemic. If trump not only loses but loses big then you will see the country move much further to the left because it will show republicans they have to actually govern, if he wins then things will become more conservative.

 

[Saelune]

I don't follow the logic, I'm just voting for someone who isn't a rapist.

Not A Rapist 2020, best candidate.

Throwing your vote away is voting for Trump.

Also, side note, can we not turn the 'Haha' thing into a troll response? Like, I get it, you think my and Worgen's and others views are absurd, but using the Haha thing like that is going to lead to some dumb spite BS.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Throwing your vote away is voting for Trump.

No it isn't. It's me exercising my political power by not condoning racist rapists. If the Republicans can win on that, neat. I would prefer it otherwise, but it's not my party. Dems are closer to being my party, and I'm not going to reward them for running racist rapists. If they want my vote, they have to earn it.

Also, side note, can we not turn the 'Haha' thing into a troll response? Like, I get it, you think my and Worgen's and others views are absurd, but using the Haha thing like that is going to lead to some dumb spite BS.

It's not a troll response, it's the perfect response to an absurd reading of the situation.

 

[Worgen]

It's not a troll response, it's the perfect response to an absurd reading of the situation.

No, obviously it means that you see my point and you agree with it. If you didn't you would have used the frowny face, but you did so I accept you agreeing with me and forgoing all of your earlier arguments.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

No, obviously it means that you see my point and you agree with it. If you didn't you would have used the frowny face, but you did so I accept you agreeing with me and forgoing all of your earlier arguments.

See now that's a troll response.

 

[SilentPony]

See, the problem here is that that can work for their side because they tend to almost want government to go away, so just by being obstructionist they can get their way. The US still has a huge moderate population that you have to appeal to. I'm not talking middle ground with ideas, but you do have to appeal to the moderate voters. We are also seeing exactly what their ideology leads us, to a government who can't manage a pandemic. If trump not only loses but loses big then you will see the country move much further to the left because it will show republicans they have to actually govern, if he wins then things will become more conservative.

But you don't understand what moderate voters are. Moderate are socially conservative Christian whites who are barely okay with gays getting married. Trans? That's out. So too is abortion, kneeling for the anthem, equal pay(women are housewives) climate change, universal health care, minimum wage, free college.

Moderate is giving up everything Bernie stands for, giving up everything you, Sealune, I, my cat and dog and more than most of this site stand for, and regressing back to about 2001 socially/culturally with a few modern allowances. Always remember in a election where its 18-dead can vote, moderate is 20 years behind you. The moderates aren't in New York or California, they're in rural Missouri, Arkansas, Wyoming and rural Washington state. They're the simple folk who need a 2 hour long Keven Bacon musical to come to the liberal choice, but Biden ain't about to tell them to let their hearts sing.

Moderates are Hobbits. Elves are conservatives. Men are liberals. And you need a wize old man who has spent his entire life trying to make the world a better place, say Berniedalf, to give them a little nudge out of the door. Biden in a LOTR analogy is Théoden under Saruman's control. But now without the liberal peace wizard to save him.

My point being that Biden is far more conservative than even Moderates are. So Biden is less a middle ground and more an acknowledgement that conservatives outplayed us.

 

[Hawki]

Moderates are Hobbits. Elves are conservatives. Men are liberals.

So, um, what are the dwarves and ents? And orcs? And trolls? And...

 

[SilentPony]

So, um, what are the dwarves and ents? And orcs? And trolls? And...

Orcs are trump supports, just let the world burn. Trolls are superpacs, more of the same but larger. Ents would be the old hippies who are all but died out but if galvanized with weed will vote liberal, and Dwarves would be Social Justice Warriors in that they're on the liberals side, but speak very carefully around them lest you offend them and they refuse to join the cause. Oh and the whole mountain mines / safe space echo chambers should speak for itself.

And the And...are the green party

 

[Saelune]

No it isn't. It's me exercising my political power by not condoning racist rapists. If the Republicans can win on that, neat. I would prefer it otherwise, but it's not my party. Dems are closer to being my party, and I'm not going to reward them for running racist rapists. If they want my vote, they have to earn it.



It's not a troll response, it's the perfect response to an absurd reading of the situation.

This is why I do not believe you are sincere in your views. You would rather laugh at people wanting better than actually doing better yourself. Like, serious question, do you think I and/or Worgen do not want the world to be better? Even if you think our methods for achieving that are in your mind, flawed, do you think we want good to succeed, or do you think we don't?

 

[Saelune]

But you don't understand what moderate voters are. Moderate are socially conservative Christian whites who are barely okay with gays getting married. Trans? That's out. So too is abortion, kneeling for the anthem, equal pay(women are housewives) climate change, universal health care, minimum wage, free college.

Moderate is giving up everything Bernie stands for, giving up everything you, Sealune, I, my cat and dog and more than most of this site stand for, and regressing back to about 2001 socially/culturally with a few modern allowances. Always remember in a election where its 18-dead can vote, moderate is 20 years behind you. The moderates aren't in New York or California, they're in rural Missouri, Arkansas, Wyoming and rural Washington state. They're the simple folk who need a 2 hour long Keven Bacon musical to come to the liberal choice, but Biden ain't about to tell them to let their hearts sing.

Moderates are Hobbits. Elves are conservatives. Men are liberals. And you need a wize old man who has spent his entire life trying to make the world a better place, say Berniedalf, to give them a little nudge out of the door. Biden in a LOTR analogy is Théoden under Saruman's control. But now without the liberal peace wizard to save him.

My point being that Biden is far more conservative than even Moderates are. So Biden is less a middle ground and more an acknowledgement that conservatives outplayed us.

Democrats as a party are officially pro-LGBT. Obama made sure of that. 90's Democrats would never have said 'Its ok to be gay', but now it is 2020 and they do. That is progress, that is observable progress.

Letting Trump be president is dragging us backwards. Bernie knows that. That is why he runs as Dem, and why he endorsed Hillary and why he endorses Biden. Learn from the man you claim to idolize.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Given the right wing bent of this forum, I can understand how you and others would be okay with nominating Biden. And hey, that's fine. But what we really need is a shift in the political paradigm in america.

Claiming that the forum has a right wing bent, or that people were ok with nominating Biden also doesn't help you appear to be arguing in good faith.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

This is why I do not believe you are sincere in your views. You would rather laugh at people wanting better than actually doing better yourself. Like, serious question, do you think I and/or Worgen do not want the world to be better? Even if you think our methods for achieving that are in your mind, flawed, do you think we want good to succeed, or do you think we don't?

I think the first problem is framing this as "good vs evil", viewing politics through a lens like that will see that you'll either never succeed or that I wouldn't want you to succeed, no. When you've framed the political parties that way you've already poisoned your thinking to both ignore problems within your own group as well as blind you to the thoughts and plans of any rival groups. If you only think of Republicans as evil, you can't know what they're aiming for nor can you understand their voters. If you only think of Democrats as good, you'll be taken advantage of and have your opinions discarded in the face of the political machine.

As point of fact, in this election, you have no power within the Democrat party while I have a great deal of power. And in fact, because you lack power, I have all the more. You talk about how the Democrats are acting like they might be going left over time, did it occur to you that they might be trying to gather people like me? This is the area of Realpolitik that the supposedly "rational centrists" don't understand.

Why should the Democrats pander to you? You're going to vote for them no matter what they do. You've been adamant from the start that you will. So they will only ever field candidates in their own interest since they don't have to care about your interest, you've ceded your opinion to them. Meanwhile currently 40% of delegates are going to Sanders and there is a section of the Sanders bloc that will not vote by party, but by issue. The only power a politician has is in executing the policies their electors want to see. Thus, when viewing their potential voting base, you'll vote no matter where the candidate stands on the issue, but I'll only vote if they align with me on the issues.

Since the people supporting Biden generally don't care about the issues, the only issues the Democrats have to acknowledge are the issues of Sanders supporters. This is how you exert power over a party. This is why the Democrat platform is moving left. And it's why I won't stop until they also field candidates who I believe would execute such policies. I don't believe Biden will because I have ample evidence that he won't, but they'll listen to me before they listen to you.

 

[Saelune]

I think the first problem is framing this as "good vs evil", viewing politics through a lens like that will see that you'll either never succeed or that I wouldn't want you to succeed, no. When you've framed the political parties that way you've already poisoned your thinking to both ignore problems within your own group as well as blind you to the thoughts and plans of any rival groups. If you only think of Republicans as evil, you can't know what they're aiming for nor can you understand their voters. If you only think of Democrats as good, you'll be taken advantage of and have your opinions discarded in the face of the political machine.

As point of fact, in this election, you have no power within the Democrat party while I have a great deal of power. And in fact, because you lack power, I have all the more. You talk about how the Democrats are acting like they might be going left over time, did it occur to you that they might be trying to gather people like me? This is the area of Realpolitik that the supposedly "rational centrists" don't understand.

Why should the Democrats pander to you? You're going to vote for them no matter what they do. You've been adamant from the start that you will. So they will only ever field candidates in their own interest since they don't have to care about your interest, you've ceded your opinion to them. Meanwhile currently 40% of delegates are going to Sanders and there is a section of the Sanders bloc that will not vote by party, but by issue. The only power a politician has is in executing the policies their electors want to see. Thus, when viewing their potential voting base, you'll vote no matter where the candidate stands on the issue, but I'll only vote if they align with me on the issues.

Since the people supporting Biden generally don't care about the issues, the only issues the Democrats have to acknowledge are the issues of Sanders supporters. This is how you exert power over a party. This is why the Democrat platform is moving left. And it's why I won't stop until they also field candidates who I believe would execute such policies. I don't believe Biden will because I have ample evidence that he won't, but they'll listen to me before they listen to you.

I am LGBT. Republicans have made it part of their primary political identity to abuse me for that. That is why I do not vote for them. And what power do you hold over Democrats then if Biden is the nominee? Sounds to me like you overblow your own influence.

And the irony in you telling me to compromise while you yourself refuse to compromise.

As long as I as an LGBT person vote Democrat because they show any support for my rights, and refuse to vote Republican because they actively oppose my rights, then so do I hold power in the way you claim to hold power.

And I am not wrong for calling the party who made evil their political identity, evil.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

I am LGBT. Republicans have made it part of their primary political identity to abuse me for that. That is why I do not vote for them. And what power do you hold over Democrats then if Biden is the nominee? Sounds to me like you overblow your own influence.

And the irony in you telling me to compromise while you yourself refuse to compromise.

As long as I as an LGBT person vote Democrat because they show any support for my rights, and refuse to vote Republican because they actively oppose my rights, then so do I hold power in the way you claim to hold power.

And I am not wrong for calling the party who made evil their political identity, evil.

I'm not telling you to compromise. In fact what I'm saying is that you've lost your voice in the party because you've compromised from the start, before you got anything out of the Dems.

As for Biden, if he's the nominee and he's on the ballot in November, I won't vote for him. The more people that don't vote for him, the less likely he is to win. That's in fact what you and the other centrists keep telling me when you say not voting for Biden is a vote for Trump. It's an admission that the Democrats need me and people like me to win. And if they need me to win, then I need them to represent me. As they currently don't, they're much less likely to win.

The only gum in the works is the idea that the Democrats will let Trump win because that's better than actually helping people. And if that's where the Democrat party stands, they can proceed to lose every election from now on until they get over that.

 

[Saelune]

I'm not telling you to compromise. In fact what I'm saying is that you've lost your voice in the party because you've compromised from the start, before you got anything out of the Dems.

As for Biden, if he's the nominee and he's on the ballot in November, I won't vote for him. The more people that don't vote for him, the less likely he is to win. That's in fact what you and the other centrists keep telling me when you say not voting for Biden is a vote for Trump. It's an admission that the Democrats need me and people like me to win. And if they need me to win, then I need them to represent me. As they currently don't, they're much less likely to win.

The only gum in the works is the idea that the Democrats will let Trump win because that's better than actually helping people. And if that's where they Democrat party stands, they can proceed to lose every election from now on until they get over that.

> 'I wont vote for Biden so he won't win'
> 'Democrats should not let Trump win'

Seriously, that last line sounds as much a criticism of yourself as anything.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

> 'I wont vote for Biden so he won't win'
> 'Democrats should not let Trump win'

Seriously, that last line sounds as much a criticism of yourself as anything.

I don't see how. The Democrats can win against Trump very easily, he's an extraordinarily weak candidate. However, they need the people to vote for them, which means they have to convince voters.

All they had to to do convince you to vote for them was exist. They have to pander to me to get my vote.

The only big problem is that people like you don't want anyone to think about policy, and just vote on team. If the Democrats can win purely by having a D next to their name, they're only going to do what makes them money. Because at that point the electorate is too divorced from politics to be relevant.

 

[SilentPony]

Democrats as a party are officially pro-LGBT. Obama made sure of that. 90's Democrats would never have said 'Its ok to be gay', but now it is 2020 and they do. That is progress, that is observable progress.

Letting Trump be president is dragging us backwards. Bernie knows that. That is why he runs as Dem, and why he endorsed Hillary and why he endorses Biden. Learn from the man you claim to idolize.

No...that's attributing too much, fuck it, liberalism to the Democrats. The trade off is that A. Bernie can't win and B. No taxes on the wealthy.
So nominate Biden. Even if he wins, A. Bernie doesn't win and B. No new taxes on wealthy, with the understanding that Trump will win and guarantee both.
AOC is, despite being popular in New York, very VERY unpopular with moderate democrats. She's the Bernie of young ladies. Meaning she's inconvenient. Don't for even a second think Democrats are even close to as liberal as an upper state New Yorker Trans voter. Even if Biden wins, which he wont, but lets say he does, he at best gets nothing done and nothing changes. Most likely? LGBTAXZY rights are reduces extremely and Row v Wade is abolished. It should be noted Bush era Republicans, being anti gay, trans, women and darkies, are totally for Biden. Because they seen themselves in him.