Biden clenches the nomination.

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Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
But you don't understand what moderate voters are. Moderate are socially conservative Christian whites who are barely okay with gays getting married. Trans? That's out. So too is abortion, kneeling for the anthem, equal pay(women are housewives) climate change, universal health care, minimum wage, free college.
No, what you are describing are evengelicals and they are totally in the republican camp, mainly because they are radically anti-abortion. They are anti-trans and lgbt also, but the lgb thing has kinda started moving by the wayside for the most part, they are still anti-trans though, but its kinda secondary. When I say moderates I mean plebs, people that don't really follow politics closely and don't really have a strong opinion. Plus you also described black and latino voters there kinda too, but the republican party isn't too fond of the darker skin colors so they tend to go democrat.


My point being that Biden is far more conservative than even Moderates are. So Biden is less a middle ground and more an acknowledgement that conservatives outplayed us.
Screw it, lets see what Biden stances are.

Climate change: Biden in June 2019 proposed a plan that would spend $1.7 trillion to set the United States on track to eliminate net greenhouse gas emissions by 2050. His proposal embraces elements of the ambitious Green New Deal, the broad plan to address renewable-energy infrastructure and climate change proposed by Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez of New York, and seeks to go “well beyond” Obama’s climate goals. As part of the proposal, Biden is calling for an end to fossil fuel subsidies and a ban on new oil and gas permits on public lands. He would also reenter the Paris climate accord. The plan leaves it to Congress to decide what enforcement mechanism would be used to require corporations in the United States to meet the emissions goals Biden’s plan lays out – and penalize them if they fall short. More on Biden’s climate crisis policy

Economy: Boosting the middle class is one of the main pillars of Biden’s campaign. He often says the country needs to build an economy that “rewards work, not just wealth.” Biden wants to repeal the tax cuts enacted by the Trump administration and is pushing for a $15 minimum hourly wage, eliminating noncompete agreements for workers and expanding access to affordable education, including free community college. In an interview with CNN in July 2019, Biden said he would raise the top individual income tax rate to 39.5% and raise the corporate tax rate from 21% to 28%. More on Biden’s economic policy

Education: Biden has proposed an education plan that would increase funding for schools in low-income areas, help teachers pay off student loans and double the number of health professionals working in schools. A core element involves tripling federal Title I funding for schools that serve low-income areas, closing what his campaign called a $23 billion funding gap between majority white and nonwhite school districts. In October 2019, Biden unveiled a plan that would cut student loan debt obligations, waiving $10,000 per year – for up to five years – for those in public service work, like teachers or members of the military. He would also guarantee that those earning less than $25,000 owe nothing on their undergraduate federal student loans, while everyone else’s payments would be capped at 5% of their discretionary income above $25,000 – halving the current 10% cap. More on Biden’s education policy

Healthcare: Biden in July 2019 unveiled a health care plan that would greatly expand Obamacare’s subsidies to make the private insurance policies available on the exchanges more affordable. The plan would also create a new “public option” similar to Medicare that people could buy into. “We’re going to add to it a public option. And the public option says whether you are having employer-based insurance or private insurance, or you’re in the exchange, you can join up for a Medicaid-Medicare-like provision in the law and not dump 300 million people on Medicare all of a sudden,” he said in July 2019. Biden added that those covered by employer-based health insurance plans could also choose the public plan if they prefer it. “You can sign up and get this other plan,” he said. “But if you like (your private insurance), you’re able to keep it.” More on Biden’s health care policy

Immigration: Biden supports a pathway to citizenship for undocumented immigrants. He has also called on Congress to immediately grant citizenship to some undocumented immigrants brought to the US as children. At the first Democratic presidential debate in June, Biden said that undocumented immigrants with no criminal records “should not be the focus of deportation.” In an interview with CNN in July 2019, Biden said he opposes decriminalizing crossing the border without documentation, something other candidates in the field have supported. “I think people should have to get in line, but if people are coming because they’re actually seeking asylum, they should have a chance to make their case,” Biden said. More on Biden’s immigration policy


Ok, so what here is super conservative? Really aside from his immigration plan not being as open as I would prefer, nothing here really seems bad and most of it seems pretty good.
 

Thaluikhain

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And if that's where the Democrat party stands, they can proceed to lose every election from now on until they get over that.
And if they don't the greater evil gets to be in power indefinitely? I don't see the Democrats swinging further left due to Trump any time soon. 4 years of Trump took their candidate from Clinton to Biden.

Secondly, voter suppression is a lot easier for the Republicans when they are in power. The US doesn't really have free and fair elections at the best of times, even if Biden has lots more people who should be voters behind him I'm not sure it'll matter this election. If Trump wins again, it's not looking good for the time after.
 

crimson5pheonix

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And if they don't the greater evil gets to be in power indefinitely? I don't see the Democrats swinging further left due to Trump any time soon. 4 years of Trump took their candidate from Clinton to Biden.

Secondly, voter suppression is a lot easier for the Republicans when they are in power. The US doesn't really have free and fair elections at the best of times, even if Biden has lots more people who should be voters behind him I'm not sure it'll matter this election. If Trump wins again, it's not looking good for the time after.
People say that, but I've pointed out earlier in the thread where Democrats engage in voter suppression. In different ways and at different times than Republicans of course, but all the same, just voting D without thought doesn't help open up elections or even keep them safe.

As to their choice of candidate, if they keep losing going further and further right, I don't know what to say about their strategizing that they can't recognize they lose by going right. Obama got elected because people thought he was left leaning. On his second election he lost 2 and a half states. Hillary lost a lot more. If they lose with Biden and think to themselves "we need to go further right", then they're inept and shouldn't be leading the party in the first place. Coddling them and rewarding them for going further right is definitely the wrong answer here.
 

fOx

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Claiming that the forum has a right wing bent, or that people were ok with nominating Biden also doesn't help you appear to be arguing in good faith.
The forums do have a right wing bent. American politics have no left wing parties. They have two right wing parties. Bernie is centre by any rational metric, and biden and hillary are assuredly right wing. Now, you may say that the people in this forum are not right wing, but they've shown themselves quite hostile toward leftist ideology and communism thus far.
 

Thaluikhain

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The forums do have a right wing bent. American politics have no left wing parties. They have two right wing parties.
The latter two sentences are obviously true, but have little to do with the former.

Now, you may say that the people in this forum are not right wing, but they've shown themselves quite hostile toward leftist ideology and communism thus far.
Not seeing it myself. Now, there's all sorts of hostility towards various ideas on how to move to the left, of course, but moving left (often moving much further left) is generally agreed to be a good thing. There are some far right posters, of course, but they seem to be in the minority.
 

Saelune

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I don't see how. The Democrats can win against Trump very easily, he's an extraordinarily weak candidate. However, they need the people to vote for them, which means they have to convince voters.

All they had to to do convince you to vote for them was exist. They have to pander to me to get my vote.

The only big problem is that people like you don't want anyone to think about policy, and just vote on team. If the Democrats can win purely by having a D next to their name, they're only going to do what makes them money. Because at that point the electorate is too divorced from politics to be relevant.
I know you don't see how, and at this point, it is because you refuse to.

Yeah, the 'problem' is people like me realizing that I cannot afford 4 more years of Trump. Fuck that. You're over privileged.

No...that's attributing too much, fuck it, liberalism to the Democrats. The trade off is that A. Bernie can't win and B. No taxes on the wealthy.
So nominate Biden. Even if he wins, A. Bernie doesn't win and B. No new taxes on wealthy, with the understanding that Trump will win and guarantee both.
AOC is, despite being popular in New York, very VERY unpopular with moderate democrats. She's the Bernie of young ladies. Meaning she's inconvenient. Don't for even a second think Democrats are even close to as liberal as an upper state New Yorker Trans voter. Even if Biden wins, which he wont, but lets say he does, he at best gets nothing done and nothing changes. Most likely? LGBTAXZY rights are reduces extremely and Row v Wade is abolished. It should be noted Bush era Republicans, being anti gay, trans, women and darkies, are totally for Biden. Because they seen themselves in him.
AOC endorsed Biden. Also I am not Upstate. Upstate New York is like Alabama with more mountains.

Edit: https://nypost.com/2020/04/23/aoc-announces-on-instagram-that-she-will-vote-for-joe-biden/

If Biden wins, he will not do the terrible things Trump keeps doing, and his TEAMS will do good, because Biden won't fire everyone who looks at him funny.
 

Saelune

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The latter two sentences are obviously true, but have little to do with the former.



Not seeing it myself. Now, there's all sorts of hostility towards various ideas on how to move to the left, of course, but moving left (often moving much further left) is generally agreed to be a good thing. There are some far right posters, of course, but they seem to be in the minority.
This topic has mostly been right-wingers telling the left-wingers they are right-wing for not supporting Trump.
 

crimson5pheonix

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I know you don't see how, and at this point, it is because you refuse to.

Yeah, the 'problem' is people like me realizing that I cannot afford 4 more years of Trump. Fuck that. You're over privileged.
Once again, you can play that card if you want, I don't think it'll work out how you want it to though. Personally I think you're overly privileged if you don't have to actually consider the policy of the people you vote for. If you're comfy with the lower class getting fucked, then you're not in that bad of a situation.
 

Saelune

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Once again, you can play that card if you want, I don't think it'll work out how you want it to though. Personally I think you're overly privileged if you don't have to actually consider the policy of the people you vote for. If you're comfy with the lower class getting fucked, then you're not in that bad of a situation.
Immigrants, non-white people, LGBT people and women are who I am concerned with, and tons of them are poor, often because they are those things.

But you're the one who won't vote against Trump, not me. YOU don't care about poor people because you are fine with 4 more years of Trump. Because you are privileged enough to feel not bothered by it.
 

crimson5pheonix

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Immigrants, non-white people, LGBT people and women are who I am concerned with, and tons of them are poor, often because they are those things.

But you're the one who won't vote against Trump, not me. YOU don't care about poor people because you are fine with 4 more years of Trump. Because you are privileged enough to feel not bothered by it.
I am voting against Trump. I'm just also voting against someone that wants to repeal Roe v Wade and is to the right of the last Dem president that had his cabinet picked by Citibank. All you can give are platitudes about Dems being good for people, but no answers for when it's pointed out that the Democrat party as an entity is failing the people they're supposed to be championing.

And the last thing you can claim to be is pro-woman if you're unironically voting for Biden. It's bad enough that his advisers have scrubbed any mention of #MeToo from their public personas.
 

Saelune

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I am voting against Trump. I'm just also voting against someone that wants to repeal Roe v Wade and is to the right of the last Dem president that had his cabinet picked by Citibank. All you can give are platitudes about Dems being good for people, but no answers for when it's pointed out that the Democrat party as an entity is failing the people they're supposed to be championing.

And the last thing you can claim to be is pro-woman if you're unironically voting for Biden. It's bad enough that his advisers have scrubbed any mention of #MeToo from their public personas.
Trump and Kavanaugh. You cannot be ok with them remaining and be pro-women. If you want to condemn me for it, then you have to condemn yourself too.
 

crimson5pheonix

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Trump and Kavanaugh. You cannot be ok with them remaining and be pro-women. If you want to condemn me for it, then you have to condemn yourself too.
No I don't, because I'm not voting for Trump. You're the only one here who's down with shutting out #MeToo.
 

Saelune

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No I don't, because I'm not voting for Trump. You're the only one here who's down with shutting out #MeToo.
If you would accept your own responsibility I might be able to respect your stance atleast a little, but you refuse and thus are part of the problem. Your dignity means nothing to those suffering because of Trump.
 

crimson5pheonix

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If you would accept your own responsibility I might be able to respect your stance atleast a little, but you refuse and thus are part of the problem. Your dignity means nothing to those suffering because of Trump.
I don't see how I'm not accepting responsibility, I've already said exactly what I'm planning to do and why I'm doing it, and why it's a better solution than your plan.
 

SilentPony

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I know you don't see how, and at this point, it is because you refuse to.

Yeah, the 'problem' is people like me realizing that I cannot afford 4 more years of Trump. Fuck that. You're over privileged.


AOC endorsed Biden. Also I am not Upstate. Upstate New York is like Alabama with more mountains.

Edit: https://nypost.com/2020/04/23/aoc-announces-on-instagram-that-she-will-vote-for-joe-biden/

If Biden wins, he will not do the terrible things Trump keeps doing, and his TEAMS will do good, because Biden won't fire everyone who looks at him funny.
Yes AOC endorsed Biden for party unity, great. Did Biden endorse AOC?
 

fOx

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The latter two sentences are obviously true, but have little to do with the former.



Not seeing it myself. Now, there's all sorts of hostility towards various ideas on how to move to the left, of course, but moving left (often moving much further left) is generally agreed to be a good thing. There are some far right posters, of course, but they seem to be in the minority.
Out of curiosity, what do you think the solution is to the right wing problem in americsn politics?
 

tstorm823

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The forums do have a right wing bent. American politics have no left wing parties. They have two right wing parties. Bernie is centre by any rational metric, and biden and hillary are assuredly right wing. Now, you may say that the people in this forum are not right wing, but they've shown themselves quite hostile toward leftist ideology and communism thus far.
Feel free to name a single policy enacted in any nation on earth that Bernie would say "yeah, that's too far left for me".

American politics goes further left on social policies than most of the world, spend more on safety net than most of the world, Medicare for All would be more comprehensive universal healthcare than all but like two nations on the planet, and Bernie wishes he could do more. Bernie is left of everyone, with the exception of his economic positions compared to literal communists. That's it. And I'm not even sure it's fair to the left to call communism left. I'd personally be much happier if we limited the things we call left and right to the questions of how best to govern society, and cut off before reaching the people who want to destroy human civilization altogether.

You haven't been talking to the people hostile to communism. That's my job here.
 

fOx

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Feel free to name a single policy enacted in any nation on earth that Bernie would say "yeah, that's too far left for me".

American politics goes further left on social policies than most of the world, spend more on safety net than most of the world, Medicare for All would be more comprehensive universal healthcare than all but like two nations on the planet, and Bernie wishes he could do more. Bernie is left of everyone, with the exception of his economic positions compared to literal communists. That's it. And I'm not even sure it's fair to the left to call communism left. I'd personally be much happier if we limited the things we call left and right to the questions of how best to govern society, and cut off before reaching the people who want to destroy human civilization altogether.

You haven't been talking to the people hostile to communism. That's my job here.
Bernie wants to work withing the system to tax the wealthy in order to fund social policies such as free health care for all, and education.

He does not desire the total destruction of all hierarchies, or the complete seizure of wealth for the purpose of redistribution, as well as an end to private property, which is what I would consider a leftist position.

What I want is more complex. The total destruction of "wealth" as a concept. No one gets paid at all, and no one owns property. Instead of money, we simply gather and then redistribute resources as necessary to the people who need them. This includes things like food, or medical services. People will live in communal living spaces. When you die, you don't leave anything to your family, because their needs are provided for. This ends the dynastic system of oppression that has existed in the western system of government for millennia. Only by destroying the concept of "ownership," can we destroy inequality and privilege.
 

tstorm823

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Bernie wants to work withing the system to tax the wealthy in order to fund social policies such as free health care for all, and education.

He does not desire the total destruction of all hierarchies, or the complete seizure of wealth for the purpose of redistribution, as well as an end to private property, which is what I would consider a leftist position.

What I want is more complex. The total destruction of "wealth" as a concept. No one gets paid at all, and no one owns property. Instead of money, we simply gather and then redistribute resources as necessary to the people who need them. This includes things like food, or medical services. People will live in communal living spaces. When you die, you don't leave anything to your family, because their needs are provided for. This ends the dynastic system of oppression that has existed in the western system of government for millennia. Only by destroying the concept of "ownership," can we destroy inequality and privilege.
And destroy society entirely. I understand what communism is. I'm not sure it's accurate to even describe it as political in nature. Most people line up on the political spectrum where we try and figure out how best to govern existing society and how that governance might improve that society. To you, politics and economics are just tools towards the end goal of erasing all human culture that has ever existed. That's not left-wing politics. Left-wing politics is getting maximum participation in governance and in society as a whole. You would destroy everything left-wing people are trying to make better. Communism does not exist in a reasonable political spectrum.
 

fOx

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And destroy society entirely. I understand what communism is. I'm not sure it's accurate to even describe it as political in nature. Most people line up on the political spectrum where we try and figure out how best to govern existing society and how that governance might improve that society. To you, politics and economics are just tools towards the end goal of erasing all human culture that has ever existed. That's not left-wing politics. Left-wing politics is getting maximum participation in governance and in society as a whole. You would destroy everything left-wing people are trying to make better. Communism does not exist in a reasonable political spectrum.
I mean, you say that, but your corporatist ideology is literally burning up the planet. I think supporting education and human culture is important. Whose destroying society?
 
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