Biggest plot holes

[Shocksplicer]

Looper was pretty awful with this.

Spoiler

We are explicitly shown that in Bruce Willis' timeline, he killed his future self, and went into retirement. Then the Rainmaker started offing Loopers for no apparant reason, and Bruce went back in time, preventing Joseph Gordon-Levitt from killing him.

At the end of the movie, Joe realises that the kid who will one day become the Rainmaker starts killing Loopers because Bruce Willis went back in time and killed his mum.
Despite the fact that we have been EXPLICITLY shown that in Bruce's timeline he closed his loop, and the future Rainmaker's mum was never killed by future Joe. Because the Loop was closed. FAIL.

It's seriously like that movie switched writer/director midway through production. The second half was SO BAD.

 

[Warachia]

For me, it's when Elrond says, "I was there when the strength of men failed", as clearly the strength of elves also failed that day, because Elrond had a sword, and didn't do anything, if he had at least lost to Isildur in a short fight, I'd understand, but he kinda just stood there shouting while Isildur walked past him with the ring of power.

Not really a plothole, let's look at it this way, you have giant armies of men and elves outside, the elf king and human king enter, the elf king leaves, all elves and humans will realize what happened as soon as they see Elrond come out alone, this would have caused such a massive divide, between humans and elves, as well as elves and other elves, this divide could and I think would have been far more disastrous than Sauron coming back 3,000 years later, besides that, why should Elrond have cared? By the time Sauron came back, the elves were leaving middle-earth.

 

[Rijor]

The biggest plot hole in the Harry Potter series is the goddamn Time Turner. Where the hell did that thing go and why wasn't every character (good and evil) seeking to find it and use it? It seemed to be the single-most powerful artifact in the entire story.

Truth. Harry Potter seems to be filled with magical spells and items that would have been huge life savers in other books of the series.

A device so powerful it can stop the evil wizard before he is even born, or prevent countless deaths. Such a device is given to... an underage girl so she can attend to several classes at the same time. Because school attendance is SERIOUS BUSINESS.

Might I point out, the Time Turner was used in the school of time travel thought that events that have happened have happened. Hermione attended all of her classes with the Time Turner simply because she used the time turner to attend her classes. Nothing altered, nothing changed. Harry saw his own Patronus simply because he used the time turner and saved himself. The true plot hole would be in the paradoxical nature of that use of Time Travel, but it's at least used consistently.

In short, if they went back in time and stopped Voldemort with the Time Turner, Voldemort would not have been a problem in the book to begin with. Voldemort would've been defeated, and that would have been fact.

Timey Wimey ball and whatnot.

 

[RJ 17]

Snip

Fair enough with the Marker being the source of the hallucinations, but that's a laaaaaaaaame excuse for the whole "Nicole unlocking the door" bit. There's nothing to suggest that Isaac is tripping out (other than seeing his dead wife) while staring at an unlocked door.

 

[DoPo]

The biggest plot hole in the Harry Potter series is the goddamn Time Turner. Where the hell did that thing go and why wasn't every character (good and evil) seeking to find it and use it? It seemed to be the single-most powerful artifact in the entire story.

Truth. Harry Potter seems to be filled with magical spells and items that would have been huge life savers in other books of the series.

A device so powerful it can stop the evil wizard before he is even born, or prevent countless deaths. Such a device is given to... an underage girl so she can attend to several classes at the same time. Because school attendance is SERIOUS BUSINESS.

Might I point out, the Time Turner was used in the school of time travel thought that events that have happened have happened. Hermione attended all of her classes with the Time Turner simply because she used the time turner to attend her classes. Nothing altered, nothing changed. Harry saw his own Patronus simply because he used the time turner and saved himself. The true plot hole would be in the paradoxical nature of that use of Time Travel, but it's at least used consistently.

In short, if they went back in time and stopped Voldemort with the Time Turner, Voldemort would not have been a problem in the book to begin with. Voldemort would've been defeated, and that would have been fact.

Timey Wimey ball and whatnot.

There are generally two ways (serious) time travel can work - fixed timeline (you can't change events through time travel - everything is predetermined) or "free will" (you can, nothing is). While we have insufficient evidence, I'm leaning towards the latter, for the prophecies are not infallible. If so, anyone can set off the initial event loop by going back in time in the first time (so, "after" that, it always happens). In this case, there is no explanation why nobody tried it at all.

However, if the former, i.e., fixed timeline, then there is no explanation why nobody ever tried it. Yes, by not having the even having happened in the past, that means nobody in the future time travelled, however that does not tell us why they didn't. It also raises the question why do prophecies fail, as in, how incompetent are the p[rophets, if they can see something that can never happen.

 

[Vigormortis]

Spoiler: Post was long, so it's spoilered for space. Pardon.

Ummm, the reason that is usually given is because the eagles don't want to carry an object of such evil, I guess their reasoning was it might corrupt them or something...

Oh and in the movie (can't remember book) the eagles weren't at the top of mount doom, they were near that entrance about, can't remember how far up but definatly not the top.

The "corruption" explanation is the only one I've ever heard that made any bit of sense. Sense enough to be what I've usually defaulted to as an explanation. (and yes, I've heard many. including recent messages from other forum posters)

Even so, it's a tenuous one at best.

As for their entrance near the end of the tale, they weren't at the very top of the mountain, sure, but they were still damned close. Besides, have you seen a volcano erupt? I don't care if you're at the peak or at the base, you're flying into some hellish conditions.

Regardless of all of that, again, I still love the story.

There are certainly problems in Lord of the Rings (and really big plot contrivances) but the eagles are not one of them.

If the eagles flew 300 feet up the ballistas could still get them and so could the fellbeasts, that doesn't make them safe, I've already explained why they can't fly over the mountain, so please tell me what they do when they get to the door and found thousands upon thousands of orcs and the nine Nazgul guarding the doorway, ask them nicely to step aside? There's only one entrance into the mountain, and you think they could just waltz in there without a problem while there is an army living below?

The best scouts the Orcs had could not have out-paced the eagles flight speeds. Besides, we're operating under the assumption that they'd go in alone, or rather, that there'd be no other action on the part of the council. I.E. some form of distraction. (recall the final confrontation between the human army and the orcs)

My point was, the eagle plan wouldn't be fail-proof, but given all circumstances involved, it was a plan that would have had a much better chance at success. At least, when compared to sending two hobbits on foot.

They were several thousand feet BELOW the top of the mountain, (outside the doorway) and it would be extremely easy for the fellbeasts to just gang up on the ring bearing eagle (or any others) and drive it lower.

As I said above, when a volcano is erupting, especially for as long as Mount Doom has been, it doesn't really matter where you fly. You're going to be in a hell-scape of fire and ash (unless you're over the peak, in which case you're dead). As such, if the eagles could approach the mountain at all, they could have flown straight to the door.

Sending eagles with people on them is far more riskier than 2 hobbits for several reasons:
A) The eagles would be seen by every single on of Saruman's scouts, they wouldn't even get close to Rohan before the Crebain or Saruman brought them down.

Seen, perhaps, but not necessarily assumed to be carrying the ring. Besides, again, we're operating under the assumption there'd be no other plan in action. False carriers, land assaults used as distractions, etc.

B) The Nazgul would see them, report it, and fellbeasts would immediately be sent after them.

Of course, but they'd just as likely have seen Frodo and Sam. It was simply a matter of plotting that they didn't.

C) The entrance to mount doom would be guarded by as many orcs as could possibly fit in it (not to mention the Nazgul), it would be so clogged you would not even have a prayer of getting the ring into the volcano.

Only if they had advanced warning. Which, again, is just as likely as with sending to hobbits in. It came down to plot allowances.

D) The eagles would definitely be corrupted by the ring, being incredibly proud, they wouldn't stand a chance against its influence, not to mention the hobbits are stealthy and can sneak by unnoticed, whereas eagles are incredibly un-stealthy, riding them would almost certainly tell Sauron where you are several days before you got anywhere near Mordor.

The eagles certainly snuck up on the Nazgul during the fight at Minas Tirith easily enough. Seems stealthy to me.

As I said above, the corruption theory is the only thing I've ever come across that could potentially put a damper on the eagle plan. Even so, the eagles could fly much faster than a ground party on foot. It would equate to much less exposure, over time, to the rings influence.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Let me clarify here, because apparently I've struck a nerve with some people.

I never said the eagle plan was fool-proof. It would have had many chances to fail, just as the Fellowhip plan did.

However, the point that's often brought up (and the reason the "eagles" are considered a "plot hole") is because, if the council had wanted to use the fastest, least-likely-to-fail plan out of all of their plans, one of them would have been to use the eagles.

Even so, once again, I still love those novels. They remain some of the best stories I've ever read. Hands down.

 

[Watcheroftrends]

That one momen is superman where he takes a bullet to the eye. Yeah right. Like anyone could take a bullet point blank in the eye. /thread

 

[Mycroft Holmes]

Maybe I'm missing something but I always wondered in ME2 where the hell you got one of the seeker insects from (the one Mordin analyses to create armour that protects from them). When did we pick that up? there was no mention of it at all.
Of course there are other plot holes in ME2 but that one stood out quite a bit too me.

It comes from a mission that was later removed from the game. Originally there was a whole mission where Commander Shepard has to run around with a butterfly net attempting to catch one of the seekers. It unfortunately had to be cut because they were having difficulty animating the picnic scene where Tali would remove her mask.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Lord Denethor was also ensnared by Sauron using a palantir, and went completely mad and devoid of hope as a result.

Wait, I thought with Denethor it was because he saw in the Palantir that Frodo was caught by orcs after being comatosed by Shelob, knowing that Frodo was the ring bearer, and realizing then that Sauron would soon have the Ring. Eventhough all the while Sam had the Ring.

It's been a long time since I read the books.

Spoilered for those who haven't read ROTK yet:

Spoiler

In the novel, one of the legends that the Gondorians have about Denethor is that he locks himself in his tower, and uses his mind to wrestle with Sauron, and come away with knowledge. Throughout the novel, Denethor is shown having knowledge of events which he couldn't realistically have known about.

It's then revealed after Faramir's near-cremation, that he has a Palantir, and he's been using it for quite some time. Hence how he's been able to keep abreast of Sauron's plans, and why the Gondrians have those legends about him. However, when Denethor then cremates himself, Gandalf implies the same thing happened with him as happened with Sauron: he used the Palantir to try and gain knowledge, and was eventually ensnared. Seeing the sheer numbers and power that Sauron had to command, Denethor becomes overcome with depression. The death of his son Boromir is what pushes him over the edge into insanity. Before then, he was a strong but grim leader trying to make the best of what seemed a hopeless situation. After Boromir died, Denethor had nothing to keep him grounded in reality.

This is what makes the Palantir so dangerous, and the people who used them so tragic. Both Denethor and Saruman used them for the best of intentions, but ended up seeing only what Sauron wanted them to see, and become corrupted as a result. This all ties into the idea Gandalf talks about in the beginning of the Fellowship- the idea of powerful figures using powerful tools with the best intentions, but ending up becoming corrupted along the way. Both Saruman and Denethor are not only tragic characters in themselves, they serve as examples of why it would have been dangerous for Gandalf or Aragorn to take the Ring instead of Frodo. They would have ended up either evil or insane, and either fallen into Sauron's hands, or replaced him with something just as bad.

Regarding Frodo and Sam, the Palantiri aren't a license to see everywhere. You can only see from one palantir into another, or into the surrounding area. It's highly unlikely that Denethor would have been able to see Frodo and Sam with the Palantir, given that they are still on the borders of Mordor/Cirith Ungol when attacked by Shelob.

The Palantir also explains why Denethor seems aged before his time: the same thing happens to Aragorn when he uses the Isengard Palantir to challenge Saruman. To everyone else, he seems to have aged by a few years seemingly overnight. Denethor himself is described as being old before his time. His constant use of the Palantir, and the depression and hopelessness it creates in him, are to blame for this.

And people say Tolkien couldn't do psychologically interesting characters...

Oooh okay! It's been a long time since I read them.

But as for that one actual plothole from the movie you described. The Nazgul already saw Frodo carrying the Ring on Weathertop in Fellowship, and from what I can remember the same happened in the book. I don't know if they actually saw him holding it out infront of them in the book, but they definately stabbed his ass, and I reckon because they realized he was the ring bearer.

 

[Calibanbutcher]

-snip-

Great read! Agree with the whole Griffons thing not working, bugged me ever since I saw it on "How it should have ended" the first time. You just put it in words better then me.
Never noticed the plot hole you mentioned though, I just assumed Sauron thought Aragon had the ring, like in the book. (witch I read before I saw the moves, mind you.) But now that you mention it, Souron really should have known Frodo hat the ring.

Yeah, the "here, take this thing you crave more than anything else" plot hole IS a plot hole, though a movie specific one.
(Am I correct in assuming that the Nazgul possess telepathic abilities?)

It's never really made explicit, but its certainly strongly implied in the novels that the Nazgul, as the most powerful servants of Sauron, have a certain ability to dominate the minds of men. Whether that means telepathy as in being able to read minds (Gandalf mentions off-hand in the novels that he has such an ability, so its conceivable that others would too), or simply the ability to command the weak-willed to do their bidding is never made clear, though there are hints of both.

In short, the exact range and limit of the Nazgul's powers were deliberately kept vague by Professor T, I'd imagine in an effort to make them more mysterious and menacing.

It's also worth remembering that a lot of the Frodo-going-zombie-and-switching-sides stuff like in Osgiliath was never in the novels. While the Ring has a strong hold on Frodo, he never (as far as I recall) weirds out and start offering the Ring to whichever servant of Sauron is nearest. The Ring's effect is far more subversive, to the point where Frodo's refusal to throw it away in Mt Doom comes as something of a shock to the reader. Peter Jackson decided to add an aspect to the character which, as far as I'm concerned, raises a whole host of problems.

ultra snip

Well, despite having ninja'd you, you still get this one.
That was a great and very funny read, so you can have this one.

It's all good man. Tolkien's books are some of my favourites, so it always gets my goat when people start talking about so called plot holes that aren't actually plot holes. Even with the huge licenses the films take with the lore, there's still no justification for the whole 'Eagles' thing. It's an idea that sounds cool in principle, but in practise has even less chance of success than pawning the ring onto Bombadil.

Here's a real question though: The Balrog- wings or no wings?

It's been a while since I read the books, but as far as I know, nowhere it says that the Balrog DOESN't have wings.
And they look extremely cool.
So wings are a-ok with me.

 

[jurnag12]

The point is, if the council at Rivendell had wanted to take the best, least-likely-to-fail course of action, they would have sent their best people with the eagles. (though, that would have made for a much less dramatic, less compelling story, so...)

Well, yes, but you have to take one thing into consideration: The Eagles aren't just animals, and not their pets .
Hell, Tolkien speculated in some of his writing that the Eagles are actually Maiar (Since they were originally sent from Valinor by the Valar Manwë), which would put them on the same level as frickin' Gadalf. Just because Gandalf rolls with the Fellowship doesn't mean that Gwaihir is gonna jump at the chance to send some his people straight into the heart of evil itself.
Not only that, but if it were to happen regardless, Sauron would be able to pinpoint the bird that was carrying the ring the second he directly looked at them and point every Fell-beast he had at that 1 guy, thus ripping him to shreds and sending the key to his victory plummeting down right into his backyard.

 

[IamLEAM1983]

The biggest plot hole ever?

"Citizen Kane" rests on the idea that Charles Foster Kane's last words are supposedly awe-inspiring. The kind of stuff that makes you go "Of COURSE! THAT'S how he built his empire!" The movie ironically suggests that nobody was there to catch them - the famous "Rosebud" line - but this is false.

Later on in the movie, we see the scene of Kane's death from a different perspective. A nurse is on call at that specific moment. A nurse who, as we plainly see, would have been close enough to hear her charge whisper "Rosebud" and relay those words to the right people!

The entire movie rests on the idea that the audience is a privileged part of some sort of death scene-slash-This Is Your Life-type presentation. That we're part of something intimate that deals with power, greed, ambition and how they can all leave a man empty. That one, single plot hole destroys the magic entirely.

It's still a good movie, mind you. It's Film History material. Even so, that one single plot hole turns an orgy of old-school awesomeness into a huge flub that totally deflates by its last ten minutes. It's kinda hard to reflect on the crushing emptiness of Kane's life when you realize that there might have been someone in the room to mutely empathize with him.

 

[Juan Cantu]

The book is a lot more vague Snip

That actually makes a lot more sense haha, but i guess it wouldnt be so dramatic on the film just having them talk over. TY

 

[Lucky Godzilla]

That one momen is superman where he takes a bullet to the eye. Yeah right. Like anyone could take a bullet point blank in the eye. /thread

Well he is called Superman for a reason.
On the topic of plot holes, the one that comes to mind for me is how Bruce Wayne was able to get back to Got-ham after breaking his back and losing all of his money after climbing out of a hole in the middle east.

 

[davidmc1158_v1legacy]

There was a plot-point that was scrapped before the release of the movie that involved Raptors somehow getting onto the boat and killing everyone. They removed the plot-point but didn't bother shooting new scenes on the crashed boat.

Now that makes sense! I wonder why they scrapped it? Not that it would've made the rest of the movie any less stupid though.

If I remember correctly, it was in the original novel. The idea was to hint that the raptors had made it to the mainland and were spreading out into Central America. It was supposed to be the cliffhanger, "the villain is still out there!" sort of moment to allow for a sequel.

In the second movie, I think it would have created WAY too much crap that would have to be wrapped up by the end of the movie. So it was cut.

Sort of. Mostly. With a few body parts left behind, but otherwise gone.

 

[bug_of_war]

Mass Effect 2 is the world's worst plot hole.

Care to explain why?

 

[chozo_hybrid]

Looper was pretty awful with this.

Spoiler

We are explicitly shown that in Bruce Willis' timeline, he killed his future self, and went into retirement. Then the Rainmaker started offing Loopers for no apparant reason, and Bruce went back in time, preventing Joseph Gordon-Levitt from killing him.

At the end of the movie, Joe realises that the kid who will one day become the Rainmaker starts killing Loopers because Bruce Willis went back in time and killed his mum.
Despite the fact that we have been EXPLICITLY shown that in Bruce's timeline he closed his loop, and the future Rainmaker's mum was never killed by future Joe. Because the Loop was closed. FAIL.

It's seriously like that movie switched writer/director midway through production. The second half was SO BAD.

I thought it was a case of creating an alternate timeline the moment something was changed. It made sense to me that way and it's what I thought they meant when character say "Thinking about time travel just makes your head hurt."

 

[DarthAcerbus]

For me, it's when Elrond says, "I was there when the strength of men failed", as clearly the strength of elves also failed that day, because Elrond had a sword, and didn't do anything, if he had at least lost to Isildur in a short fight, I'd understand, but he kinda just stood there shouting while Isildur walked past him with the ring of power.

Personaly I would have at least tried to fight Isildur, but seeing that he had a ring that just a few time ago swooshed hundreds of dudes so easily I would have been afraid.

I didn't read the books, so I don't know if anyone used the ring at that point, so I'm not sure, yet I would have at least tried to kill him fast and from a distance.

captcha: weakest link. Maybe Elrond is... the weakest link.

Remember that bit where Galadriel refused to even touch the ring because she would be corrupted? And how Gandalf does the same thing? Elrond is in a similar situation. He might not be on the same level as Galadriel, or even Gandalf, but he is the third Elven ring-bearer, and probably was afraid to even touch the One Ring because he would get corrupted.

 

[Brutal Peanut]

In Heavy Rain where where they never explain why Ethan keeps blacking out and waking up with an origami crane in his hand. It just a giant red herring to keep us from guessing the real killer's identity that they never bother to even give an explain.

Apparently, Shelby was there during the death of Ethan's son. During this trauma, Shelby and Ethan developed, I shit you not, a psychic link. All the black outs were supposed to be scenes of Ethan swimming underwater, with the bodies of the boys, which is why Ethan always blacks out and wakes up on the same street with a crane in his hand. He's having drowning nightmares of the boys who are being abducted and drowned. Which would also explain the scene in the game where his ex.wife is being interviewed by the police and she explains that after the trauma Ethan would black out, leave the house, and return soaked in the middle of the night.

These sequences were removed from the game. They believed it was all too paranormal, but personally, I think it would have worked if they removed the psychic element but kept the drowning nightmares. Having the nightmares instead linked to his head trauma and knowledge of the case (through t.v. or newspapers) rather than a psychic link with the killer. I think the nightmare sequences are actually interesting and a unique attempt at putting a story together, especially at around 1:50 in the video I linked. But even if they had kept the paranormal element, I probably would have enjoyed it more than what was given.

 

[RedDeadFred]

LOTR:
They kinda needed to stay hidden.
From a giant eye in a very high tower.
A giant eye which also commanded a group of incredibly powerful Nazgul, who, incidentally, also had flying mounts who could incapacitate almost anyone within hearing range by simply screeching at them.
Now, the eagles were shown to be capable of downing said flying-screech-beasts, but not whilst also carrying someone.
Plus, let's not forget that the eyes power is so strong, that simply being looked at is dangerous.

So why in Galadriel's name would you choose to ride a flying beast over the enemies territory?
You would be spotted almost immediately upon crossing the border and assaulted by a group of immortal spirits whose only wish is to see you broken and destroyed.
It seems safer to me to simply walk into mordor.

Then why the heck were the eagles capable of entering the territory without problems in the end?
Don't forget that the followship has a wizard and master bowmen, those fancy flying mounts are surely vulnerable to arrows in the eyes as well as some protective magic from Gandalf (also a ringbearer). Heck, why not even ask Radagast for help as well. Screaching? Have fun screaching with arrows in your throat. Oh, and we also can't hear you over Gandalfs awesome magic.

So they had to choose to either fly over - with the only problem being the Nazgul (can be dealt with easily as we saw several times in the movies - sorry but they appear to me as a slightly more effective Team Rocket) or to walk on foot through areas held by orcs in masses. Instead of facing 11 flyers at worst they chose to face armies, trolls and a friggin Balrog...

Yeah, somehow I don't buy the ending of Lord of the Rings.

And we all saw what good Gandalfs magic was against the Nazgul and their screeching lizards.
The screeching got to him as well and he couldn't protect the soldiers around him.
Then he faced on of the Nazguls head on:
His staff exploded and he was thrown around the place like a ragdoll for a bit before the Nazgul said "screw this Im goin home"

Just so you know, I agree with your overall position on the ending not being a plot hole.

However, in a one on one fight, Gandalf should have been able to destroy the Witch King. Gandalf is a minor god, the Witch King is a mere man. An evil magical man yes, but only a man. The scene where Gandalf's staff is destroyed in the extended edition never happens in the book. In the book, the two are about to face off but the Witch King hear's the horns of Rohan and decides to go fight them instead. As much as I love the extended editions of the movies, that scene really did violate the lore Tolkien had created. The only one who could possibly defeat Gandalf is Sauron himself (or a large number of opponents like in the end of the movie/book).

Now, onto the real issue at hand: why the eagles didn't simply help. First of all, they were afraid of pretty much anyone who could wield a bow and arrow. Thousands of orc archers is a pretty gigantic deterrent to them. The eagles are massive and would be spotted miles away from the mountain. Sauron could simply position a few hundred archers to guard the door to the Cracks of Doom (yes the ring had to be taken directly inside that inner chamber it where it was forged, it couldn't just be dropped in the top, it would simply sit on the surface lava there).

Then there's the matter of the ring's power to corrupt. Are the eagles incorruptible? Probably not. As they were carrying the ring or ring bearer, an eagle might have decided to keep it for himself.

Also, the eagles were not at Gandalf's beck and call. The one eagle who saves Gandalf from Orthanc owed him a favour (or was a really good friend, I can't remember) he does not control them.

I think that pretty much covers it. Oh and before anyone says the Nazgul didn't have their winged mounts until after the second movie, this does mean the fellbeasts didn't exist. The Nazgul rode horses in the first movie because they were being stealthy and wanted to disguise themselves as men in black.

OT: Lost

Why the fuck wasn't the MiB allowed to leave the island before he became the Smoke Monster? Seriously, this is never explained and if he was given a good reason or just simply allowed to leave, that would have stopped all the shit from going down. That's just one of many from this show but it's the one that bothered me the most.