Bioshock Infinate: The opinion of an elitist culture snob [Spoilers]

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The Ubermensch

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There we go; I know, dirty cyberpunk Untermensch, off too the camps with me.

Okay, first of TLDRers, this review isn't for you. I don't know if you'll like the game or not. The shooting bits are fun but actual challenge is few and far between. But it is pretty, so if you like shooty fun with pretty vistas and stuff, buy it.

If you're like me and need a bit of meat; it's there, but not in the places all the reviews are saying. Still it's got my recommendation, if only so you can add your voice to mine.

From here on in, anything with a spoiler tag is heavy spoilers, like ridiculously so. Don't click them if you haven't played the game.

Alright, so its a good game; but is it ten outta fukken ten? Hell no. The amount of praise that this has gotten around the industry feels more like the quality starved pleas rather than legitimate praise.

I have played it, before we start. I've pretty much denied myself the hype so I went into it blind.

From a mechanical stand point I know that we all hate escort missions; but the fact that Elizabeth is completely ignored by the enemy is a bit off putting. It's a bit like she wasn't there. we could attribute to her abilities but still; it felt off. I'd rather not have one long escort mission but it would be nice if the enemy NPCs would at least acknowledge her existence and give one or two shots in her direction once in a while; Then I could at least pretend that I was protecting her. But, as it was, Elizabeth's existence in the world felt a little disjointed.

The problem escort missions isn't that you have to worry about someone; its more that that someone has poor AI, is unhelpful, or we don't care about them at all and the escort mission has no emotional weight. Or some combination of the three. Now I didn't care about Elizabeth, that's another issue entirely, but the fact that the combat AI ignored her broke the immersion. This is a shame as the game play has some really solid, unique ideas in it too.

This took most of the tension out of the game, and created a disjoint between game play and narrative, which, again, is such a shame as they nailed it in other places. I know, "shitty escort mission", but it would have been a lot more tense if you had to keep her in your peripheral vision. The way you do a good escort mission is make us care about the character we're protecting and don't make them stupid. If Tell Tail's The Walking Dead had been in a similar format I don't think any of us would mind escorting Clementine around; 'specially if she chucked us ammo when we needed it.

I felt there was a bit of a peculiar pacing when it came to Character Arcs that really dropped me out of the game.

Dewitt get's Liz to follow him by finding out she has "Dreams of seeing Paris", bit cliche, but okay, its 1912 and all naive educated young girls from 1912 want to run away to Paris. Then over the course of a few chapters Dewitt does actually explain that he's in debt with some people, he explains that these people have hired him to get her out. Now, Elizabeth is not stupid; in fact they go out of their way to make this quite clear. She's naive but she's a fast learner. Was she really surprised when Dewitt set a course for New York?

I did like the crocodile tear bit; "wow, stellar voice acting!" I said as Dewitt moved over to comfort Elizabeth... and then she smacks Dewitt with a wrench, "huh, so it was meant to sound fake, there you go!".

Now we could write it off as she did know and was playing Dewitt the whole time, but the issue that you have there is that you've characterised this person as naive and for good reason, she's had little contact with any other human being. There should have been little signs if nothing else that she was doubting Dewitt's intentions because she'd be a poor liar, you've got the VA talent to pull it off, you've put half your animation budget into Elizabeth's eyes... you know? Considering how subtle you are (that's sarcasm) with the themes of the game, you could of helped us out any more if that was you intent.

Whatever the reason the character shift seemed so jarring, be it failure to show it in the animations and voice over or because the writers can't write a rational character arc it seemed it was contrived all for one cliche line of dialogue.

"You are a thug Mr Dewitt"

At that moment my immersion was irrevocably dropped, and because Elizabeth was now a tool for cliche set pieces and combat I just stopped caring about her as a person and started thinking of her as something akin to the motion tracker in Halo.

What initially seemed like "subtle"(I use the word losely) symbolism, like in the original Bio Shock, became insultingly overt. I'll admit that the Objectivist Libertarian Dystopia of the original Bio Shock went over my head because I was doing Lit and was sick of plot analysis at the time, but who's the target audience of this? A lot of the exposition about the symbolism happens when you hang around an area as well, so its like the designers of these exposition pieces were like.

Focus Tester: "Hey rather than let the player come to his own conclusion about what we're alluding to, lets just tell them!"
World Builder: "Well, what if they just move on? I mean we can't break gameplay for my metaphorical self gratification."
FT: "Then he's probably just into the gameplay and not into the themes we're trying to explain."
WB: "But the guy who's hanging around gets exposition, the guy who's trying to take this world I've created, and soak it all up?"
FT: "Well we have to make sure they all get your message!"
WB: "By telling them what to think about what we're showing them? Do you get the subtext? Are you being meta or something?"
Character Writer: "Hey, we could make Elizabeth make the observations! It would re-enforce that she's educated hey!"
The Ubermensch: "You get out, I've already explained why you're a failure. Just go"
WB: "Do what you think, you have my notes, just give me my money."

My example is the Battle Bay chapter. First warning sign was when tweedledee and tweedledum offer you the choice of broach Elizabeth puts on her collar, "The bird or the cage?". Why I do say chaps; how subtle and deep! Elizabeth then says "Which one Mr Dewitt? I like the bird but there's something about the cage I really like!". Elizabeth's dialogue wasn't that bad; it showed that while she was glad to get out, she was already nostalgic for that gilded cage. I do like the couple lost in space time too, they were one of the highlights of the game. And by it's self it wasn't that bad, it was quite overt but it wasn't spelt out.

I chose bird, and granted given there could be an in game metaphor about caging the metal bird, but at that stage the robot bird hadn't been established enough, and while I haven't seen what happens if you pick "Cage" if the argument is that some dialogue changes and Elizabeth doesn't ask you to kill her if she's about to be taken again... well that's a bit of a poor position.

But you know what would be good; if the dialogue during that scene changes depending on whether or not you kill the captain guy. If you killed him; Dewitt says "yes" with out any hesitation, if you spared him Dewitt avoids giving a solid answer.

Later, when Fink power orb fails just after the lock picking tutorial, you're wandering around an exhibit and there is a little mock up display of Columbia. Elizabeth says something along the lines of "Teach the children war and duty and even in their old age they will fight for you". It felt like the writers were going "LOOK, LOOK AT THIS! THIS IS FASCISM! FUKKEN 'MURICA! LOOK HOW DEEP WE'RE BEING!"

Oh, but the really bit problem was it messed up the immersion set up by the tutorial level; which was amazing and I'll get to that. But one part in particular, just after you get out of the monastery theirs a large statue of the antagonist. In it's shade a mother was sitting with her boy and she says "It's not about whether or not you like it, it's your duty to go". It keeps building; you get a sense that these people are being dehumanised, living in a Steampunk Orwellian Dystopia. The fact that they outright had to say it I felt was an insult to my intelligence and I stopped paying attention to a lot of the world building. If they were just going to spell everything out for me why should I waste the effort?

Which was a real shame considering the world building was one of the best parts.

And I was right too.

The part at Fink industries? I called the ghetto the instant I saw that the animations on the men scrubbing the deck were in unison, and almost called word for word what one of Finks announcements were.

"If anyone tells you 'You're being taken for a ride' you turn around and you tell him; I ain't no fool! I'm a Fink man!"

Yes, I get it, this society is dehumanising people, thank you! You know what would work better? Like if everyone felt a little off, like they were all just a bit robotic, but not quite, firmly in the uncanny valley. You know, like you did in the TUTORIAL LEVEL. Who ever was in charge of that level, PUT THAT ON YOUR RESUME. You put the rest of the game to shame

Now on to the ending. Yes it was a Gainax ending, but Evangelion is my second favourite anime. Yes; the time shenanigans were a bit messy and it is my belief that Andrew Hussie should be the only one allowed to use aforementioned time shenanigans but they weren't that bad; I was a little peeved about how the time loop wasn't completed properly and the entire game's events became meaningless, but I'm to used to Hussie. There was also a bit of postmodernist meta philosophy there to, so I'd appreciate it if the writers had proved they had the right to wield it, like Hussie.

Have I told you about Homestuck?
Let me tell you about Homestuck;
BACK WHEN I PLAYED SGRUB, I SMOKED WEED ERRY DAY
I CHEATED EVERY QUEST
AND SNORTED ALL THE YAY

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/517/604/377.gif

Thing is I had called what was going on, I knew Dewitt and Comstock were the same. After Dewitt smashed Comstocks head against the bird feeder, you know what the first thing I did after I got control back? Checked his hands for the AD scar. Now you could say that he had a robot hand or time shenanigans fixed it, but we're not told that and there is no precedence for realistic looking mechanical limbs so that really messed up the ending for me.

If I'm looking for these details and all you had to do was make it so Comstock wore gloves, you sir, are a strange man who doesn't want to be taken seriously. It is again, a shame because the game does a lot to put you in to Dewitt's head, and Dewitt is a man who looks for the truth in things. They could of had a moment where he's about to take off the glove but turns to cowardice; not wanting to know. It would have been obvious but its better than omitting that detail, and I have to think it was an on purpose omission, because as I said the world building has phenomenal detail, something like this would not be missed.

Perhaps it was a metaphor thing? Dewitt is responsible for Comstock's existence and they are connected ala Cloud Atlas/butterfly effect? If so murdering Comstock as a child would still end everything; Yes it's a bit morbid but you can't make the argument "There will be another!". Comstock was a special kind of lunatic.

Unfortunately that kind of lunatic has the seat of power in the western world, so again, Dewitts death in either case is futile.

Also the fact that your memories aren't actually your memories trope in Bioshock... It was good the first time; don't get me started on how much I love the scene where kill Ryan "A Man Chooses, A Slave Obeys!"... But it's over done now.

Now thats out of the way... the good things:

The gameplay is fun, AI's pretty smart, it's not as difficult as the escapist reviewer say's it is and the tension is dropped away because of the Bioshocks trademarked revive system.

Infact most tension I had was the fear of being dropped out of the game and having to sit through the symbolic exposition again! Yes, say what you want about my rig; 20 AI on the screen with DX 11 effects, running at ultra settings and getting 100 FPS, while walking down an empty corridor with about 20 assets on the screen it drops down to about 3 FPS? Yes, my rig, okay.

Wait, this was supposed to be the good part!

Gameplay's good! It's accessible! Even though it would still be accessible if people played it on easy but hey!

World building is phenomenal; you can tell the team that did it loved what they were doing.

As I've said, the tutorial is perfect. So well designed I didn't even realise I was in a tutorial until I was just about done and said "Hang on, I just learnt the basics of combat and how Plasmids work in this game, good thing; it's been a while since I played Bioshock" (didn't know they were called vigors yet, well I did from the snake oil man, but hadn't made the connection).

Forgetting the light house, that wasn't all that special, aside from the notes probably being written by Tweeledee and Tweedledum. No the part is when you enter the monastery, the fact that the water covered steps were a bit unsafe looking did little... Basically, due to the themes of the game they used the fact that NPCs haven't left the uncanny valley quite well; it was all off putting and had a very Orwellian feel to it. Then you exit the river and after your baptismal, everyone's praying, chanting words. As a former Christian I found this very creepy. Pagan, before you start. You can blame the odd weather on me american's, I forgot to sacrifice a goat on the equinox.

You go out of the monastery and over hear a few conversations and you subtly get a feel for the politics in the world, the mother talking to her son; telling him it's his duty to serve, the guy talking about the state of affairs in Columbia.

Dewitt also has a bit of a monologue where he tells us he's an atheist, or rather doesn't worship god. Splendid, we're character building.

Then you come across a shop with some health items in it; there's a basket with a note saying "Honour system". This was brilliant because you have an opportunity to decide what kind of man Dewitt is. He's already noticed how dehumanised the inhabitants of Columbia are, does he accept this and steal from the basket? Does he just take what he needs and leave the basket? Or, and I tripped out when I saw this, does he put some money back in the basket? It was such a small thing but did a lot to attach me to the character, and helped me forget about Nathan Drake. Gold Star who ever decided to include that. Unfortunately; I ended up stealing out of the basket anyway because my new mouse wasn't set up properly, but that's my fault, not the games.

Companies that make their money off story, Bioware, Bethesda, Square Enix, I'm looking at you, this thing, detail, it's important.

Then we go to a fair; where you have the option of using guns and vigors to play games. There's even a tent that explains how record mechanic of exposition works, and for foreshadows one of the most annoying enemy's in the game. What I said about the tension being low is true aside from when a handy man was on the field.

You just taught me how to shoot, how the shooting mechanics work, and how vigors work; all while building the world and giving it character. Well done, I can't tell you how perfect this was.

Now the moral choices have gotten a bit of flak, mainly because they don't do anything in the game. I cannot stress that they are good BECAUSE of this. We're beyond binary interpretations of good and evil. There is a part where you throw the ball at the mixed race couple no matter what you choose a guard grabs you hand and points you out as the "False Shepard".

Sorry chaps, this was brilliant. They reinforced the fact that Dewitt had to blend in with the inhabitants through his monologue. There's about fifty brainwashed denizens surrounding you that, if you decide to go against their opinions, will descend upon you. In my very correct opinion, Dewitt was a logical man just wanting to get the job done. Yes, it was a little messy, but their fate was sealed; no point in risking myself.

So you decide to throw at the couple, and rationalise it quickly. As you pull back to throw a guard grabs you and accuses you of being the false "Shepard" by the scar on your hand and, as they say; shit goes tits up yo.

The way this happened was brilliant, because you knew that even if you chose differently the same thing was going to happen; it was the act of winding up for the throw that exposed you, not the throwing itself. This pulled the rational for throwing the ball at the couple from under your feet; and you have the potential for an intense moment of refection.

Let us move to the bird and the cage broach; you can decide, again, what kind of person Dewitt is. The cage pendant is made from gold and Liz expressed that she liked it, The bird is silver but symbolises freedom. Is Dewitt purely objective (By jobe, it's gold!) or does he have a sentimental side?

Shooting the Captain guy, again, is he Objective? What's his opinion on human life? We're also given a bit of context before this and we can take this into consideration if we choose.

Yes, you might only get a little bit of different dialogue out of it, and its undermined by A the choice in Voice Actor and B the sloppy character development, but who ever wrote the morality dilemmas, its not their fault. They did a very good job.

We're past light or dark side points now, we can make our own judgements about what's moral and what's not. Beyond Good and Evil.

And that's it. In conclusion this is the bare minimum we should expect from a story driven game. You should buy it but please stop proclaiming it as the Citizen Kane of games. Yes it's the most coherent narrative we've seen in a while, but the Citizen Kane of gaming will always go to Star Trek Voyager; Elite Force, and don't say "Well then it's the god father", because no, that goes to GTA4. Sleeping Dogs gets God Father two if its is better, which admittedly I have yet to play, Half Life gets Star Trek the Motion Picture (from me that's a complement) and Half Life 2 gets The Wrath of Khan.

Please, consumers, buy it but demand more. Only that way will we get the equivalent of Neon Genesis Evangelion for games.

In the video gaming industry that I want, it would get a 7 out of 10

Let me know if you like this kind of thing too; I like plot analysis and wouldn't mind doing it for other story driven games.

Captcha: oh brother
Well I do say sir that was most uncalled for
 

Drunk3nMonk3y

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Sorry I respect your opinion, but I disagree Bioshock Infinite is pretty damn different from Evangelion. The ending for instance is not a gainax one, simply because if you take the time to explore the world, and listen to the majority of the audio diaries you will get most of the answers that would help you make sense of the ending. I'm not going to go into the ending per say, but let's just say it makes sense in the context of the story. Nothing was pulled out of its ass, it's somewhat complicated at first glance, but it really just makes uses of one of the more popular science fiction tropes.
 

Popadoo

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Wait, did he put the AD brand on his hand AFTER or BEFORE the baptism?
And overall, I loved it. Even though, like you said, Liz had a bit of a weird character arc, the story had me captivated the whole time.
 

Drunk3nMonk3y

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Popadoo said:
Wait, did he put the AD brand on his hand AFTER or BEFORE the baptism?
And overall, I loved it. Even though, like you said, Liz had a bit of a weird character arc, the story had me captivated the whole time.
The baptism (after the war) is supposed to be before anna, and post incident with anna, he put the brand on as a form of
remembrance.
 

Pebkio

The Purple Mage
Nov 9, 2009
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AD stands for Anna Dewitt, and Comstock never had a child that would even be named "Anna Dewitt". So he'd never have had reason to put AD on his hand. Yes, Comstock and Dewitt were the same person, but you know what, Comstock was not just older Dewitt come back in time. Comstock was Dewitt from a different universe. Apparently you aren't as clever as all that.

I felt Elizabeth was actually very needed in the tougher combat parts and there were times where I had to go find her because she had to take cover some distance away from me. I would argue that the very nature of having to take care of an escort instantly turns the person into annoying algorithms.

Elizabeth's character arc is exactly what it needs to be. She was a tool to Dewitt as a baby, a tool to Comstock as a child, a tool to both throughout the game, and a tool of destiny when they free her from the siphon. Calling someone a thug to hurt their feelings is quite normal for an angry teen who's had to swallow a lot of lies, especially when that's all she can do because she's a tool. I disagree with you on the story arcs thing considering the story was about how these sets of storylines were erasing themselves from existence.


There you go, your gripes on anything but technical aspects seem to be based off of a faulty interpretation of what was happening.
 

The Ubermensch

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Drunk3nMonk3y said:
Sorry I respect your opinion, but I disagree Bioshock Infinite is pretty damn different from Evangelion. The ending for instance is not a gainax one, simply because if you take the time to explore the world, and listen to the majority of the audio diaries you will get most of the answers that would help you make sense of the ending. I'm not going to go into the ending per say, but let's just say it makes sense in the context of the story. Nothing was pulled out of its ass, it's somewhat complicated at first glance, but it really just makes uses of one of the more popular science fiction tropes.
A) You have only mentioned ending
B) It is a Gainax ending
C) A Gainax ending is good if done well
D) In order to pull off a good Gainax ending the narrative and writing quality has to support it
E) My main gripe with the ending isn't the ending its self but it's the lack of attention to detail
F) I covered my bases if I missed any thing
G) The other two Bioshocks didn't need for you to collect everything in order to make sense of their endings. Granted they were binary endings... But expecting a player to collect everything in the game just to understand what you are rabbiting on about is almost as poor form as expecting a player to purchase and read all of your books to make sense of your plot.
H) I agree, it is different from Evangelion, though you can still play Komm Susser Todd over the ending. I used a mention of Evangelion to proclaim my endorsement of the ultimate Gainax ending.

As I said, I would liken its reception to that of Citizen Kane, which it is not.
 

The Ubermensch

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Pebkio said:
AD stands for Anna Dewitt, and Comstock never had a child that would even be named "Anna Dewitt". So he'd never have had reason to put AD on his hand. Yes, Comstock and Dewitt were the same person, but you know what, Comstock was not just older Dewitt come back in time. Comstock was Dewitt from a different universe. Apparently you aren't as clever as all that.

I felt Elizabeth was actually very needed in the tougher combat parts and there were times where I had to go find her because she had to take cover some distance away from me. I would argue that the very nature of having to take care of an escort instantly turns the person into annoying algorithms.

Elizabeth's character arc is exactly what it needs to be. She was a tool to Dewitt as a baby, a tool to Comstock as a child, a tool to both throughout the game, and a tool of destiny when they free her from the siphon. Calling someone a thug to hurt their feelings is quite normal for an angry teen who's had to swallow a lot of lies, especially when that's all she can do because she's a tool. I disagree with you on the story arcs thing considering the story was about how these sets of storylines were erasing themselves from existence.


There you go, your gripes on anything but technical aspects seem to be based off of a faulty interpretation of what was happening.
I got that... I guess I was giving the writers a bit of credit, for which they deserve none. So one should kill thyself because in the potentially billions of other universes one is a mass murderer? Yes, we get Elizabeth's rational, and yes, we get Dewitt committing to action. But Dewitt betrays his character as he's smashing Comstock's head into the bird feeder.

As far as the Elizabeth mechaninc... yes, she's useful, like the motion tracker in Halo, or the Context Sensitive button in Conkers Bad Fur Day. But there is no tension in the combat, at least not for me. As the topic states; "The Opinion"

Elizabeth's story arc, I'll agree is subjective. I'm telling you my opinion, which doesn't automatically erase your's. I'm playing a character my good sir, don't take offence.

Still, this here:

>I disagree with you on the story arcs thing considering the story was about how these sets of storylines were erasing themselves from existence.

You have to be very careful when creating a narrative about time paradoxes, and only the great Andrew Hussie has proven capable.
 

gee666

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Nov 10, 2009
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What about the Booker's that never went to wounded knee? they would still live and Anna could too..just saying
 

Sonntam

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gee666 said:
What about the Booker's that never went to wounded knee? they would still live and Anna could too..just saying
Elizabeth said that there are constants and then there are variables. Wounded Knee is probably one of the constants.
 

gee666

One Sad Act
Nov 10, 2009
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Sonntam said:
gee666 said:
What about the Booker's that never went to wounded knee? they would still live and Anna could too..just saying
Elizabeth said that there are constants and then there are variables. Wounded Knee is probably one of the constants.
What I meant was those Bookers were unlikely to become Comstock as they would never have went through what our Booker did and therefore not have Guilt/need for absolution that leads to our Booker/Comstock so they are not leading to the constant that creates the infinite universe. Ok this is starting to sound like an episode of lost
 

The Ubermensch

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gee666 said:
Sonntam said:
gee666 said:
What about the Booker's that never went to wounded knee? they would still live and Anna could too..just saying
Elizabeth said that there are constants and then there are variables. Wounded Knee is probably one of the constants.
What I meant was those Bookers were unlikely to become Comstock as they would never have went through what our Booker did and therefore not have Guilt/need for absolution that leads to our Booker/Comstock so they are not leading to the constant that creates the infinite universe. Ok this is starting to sound like an episode of lost
Such stories about probability and alternate universes are post-modern escapist hogwash any way. You're absolutely right, the real question is are you responsible for the horrible person your paradox clone is? In my opinion you're not.
 

The Ubermensch

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Popadoo said:
Wait, did he put the AD brand on his hand AFTER or BEFORE the baptism?
And overall, I loved it. Even though, like you said, Liz had a bit of a weird character arc, the story had me captivated the whole time.
After the one showed at the end, before the one shown at the beginning. o_O Time Shenanigans

Yes, well I tried to enjoy myself, unfortunately my suspension of disbelief has a low tolerance these days. A year ago I would have enjoyed it more.

More power too you if you were captivated the whole time, but 'tis my burden to nit pick. You'll concede that the perfect reviews its getting are undeserved though right?
 

Drunk3nMonk3y

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The Ubermensch said:
Drunk3nMonk3y said:
Sorry I respect your opinion, but I disagree Bioshock Infinite is pretty damn different from Evangelion. The ending for instance is not a gainax one, simply because if you take the time to explore the world, and listen to the majority of the audio diaries you will get most of the answers that would help you make sense of the ending. I'm not going to go into the ending per say, but let's just say it makes sense in the context of the story. Nothing was pulled out of its ass, it's somewhat complicated at first glance, but it really just makes uses of one of the more popular science fiction tropes.
A) You have only mentioned ending
B) It is a Gainax ending
C) A Gainax ending is good if done well
D) In order to pull off a good Gainax ending the narrative and writing quality has to support it
E) My main gripe with the ending isn't the ending its self but it's the lack of attention to detail
F) I covered my bases if I missed any thing
G) The other two Bioshocks didn't need for you to collect everything in order to make sense of their endings. Granted they were binary endings... But expecting a player to collect everything in the game just to understand what you are rabbiting on about is almost as poor form as expecting a player to purchase and read all of your books to make sense of your plot.
H) I agree, it is different from Evangelion, though you can still play Komm Susser Todd over the ending. I used a mention of Evangelion to proclaim my endorsement of the ultimate Gainax ending.

As I said, I would liken its reception to that of Citizen Kane, which it is not.
It's not a gainax ending because in the grand scheme of things it makes sense, with the content that's on the disk. You don't have to have outside knowledge via discussions to make complete sense of it. A gainax ending is a total mindfuck that makes no sense upon first viewing. Bioshock infinite makes sense, you aren't clear on the details, but you grasp what actually happened. A true gainax ending would have you utterly confused, this does not.

I can't contend the rest of your post because it is filled with preferences where you are completely entitled to your opinion. Saying that this it has a gainax ending is wrong. That's all that is.

Nobody so far has mentioned that this is a game version of citizen kane, people have said that it's got an amazing story, but that's about it.
 

Tanner The Monotone

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Aug 25, 2010
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I didn't like this game all too much really. I felt too dependent on Elizabeth and death really had no consequence. The combat seemed repetitive to me and the vigors didn't feel that helpful, especially when It ran out and I had no way to refill it in combat unless Elizabeth threw me some salts (going back to the dependent thing). Not to mention all the women AI's looked like demons. Their eyes......

Plus, by the end of the game I just disliked everyone. There was no character that I liked at all.
 

Pebkio

The Purple Mage
Nov 9, 2009
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The Ubermensch said:
Such stories about probability and alternate universes are post-modern escapist hogwash any way. You're absolutely right, the real question is are you responsible for the horrible person your paradox clone is? In my opinion you're not.
But he wasn't being drowned because he felt responsible. He was being drowned because he made the choice to erase all that had been done to his daughter, by him and other him.
The Ubermensch said:
Still, this here:

>I disagree with you on the story arcs thing considering the story was about how these sets of storylines were erasing themselves from existence.

You have to be very careful when creating a narrative about time paradoxes, and only the great Andrew Hussie has proven capable.
...okay, but that wasn't really a time paradox. The preacher and his flock were all missing when Dewitt was being drowned, Dewitt was still the modern Dewitt and not the past Dewitt, and it was later in the day (on that day). I don't think they actually went back in time to when Dewitt had the choice to be baptized or not. Certainly the past would have to be changed, but that seemed more like a 4th dimensional biproduct of something that happened on the 5th dimension. You might wonder what the difference is... and the difference is that going back in time to change an event (or cause it) is a paradox while time changes due to the direct removal of timelines would be more "elastic correction". In other words, you can't change something that never was there to be changed in the first place.

It still seems like you're trying to apply time-traveling limitations to a multiple-infinite-universes game. For instance, past Dewitt probably wasn't drowned by his daughter who never existed while a religious flock disappeared into nothingness for dramatic effect. That isn't even what we witnessed. Modern Dewitt on the fifth dimension (so all Dewitts) was drowned by the eventual outcome of his choices throughout the fifth dimension (so his and Comstock's) starting in the river that's also on the fifth dimension (so all the rivers that all the Dewitts had stood in). The end result could be that the event in which Dewitt made the choice to be baptized never happened, not that he died.

But I wouldn't know for sure, I'm not one of the Luteces.

Sonntam said:
Elizabeth said that there are constants and then there are variables. Wounded Knee is probably one of the constants.
Well, Wounded Knee would be a constant for Columbia, Comstock, Dewitt's deal, and Elizabeth. Maybe just a variable for Anna, Dewitt's Private Eye business, and whatever else we don't know about his life. As for the original idea of just making sure Dewitt didn't go to Wounded Knee... probably wouldn't work. Someone else would've just taken his place and all you'd end up doing is changing the variable of "to whom this is happening" and not the actual problem itself. Even if not, changing anything but a nexus point is decidedly dangerous, as evidenced by the craziness that happened to the Vox.
 

The Ubermensch

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Pebkio said:
But he wasn't being drowned because he felt responsible. He was being drowned because he made the choice to erase all that had been done to his daughter, by him and other him.
A decision he made out of context at a point after my suspension of disbelief had been broken.

...okay, but that wasn't really a time paradox. The preacher and his flock were all missing when Dewitt was being drowned, Dewitt was still the modern Dewitt and not the past Dewitt, and it was later in the day (on that day). I don't think they actually went back in time to when Dewitt had the choice to be baptized or not. Certainly the past would have to be changed, but that seemed more like a 4th dimensional biproduct of something that happened on the 5th dimension. You might wonder what the difference is... and the difference is that going back in time to change an event (or cause it) is a paradox while time changes due to the direct removal of timelines would be more "elastic correction". In other words, you can't change something that never was there to be changed in the first place.
Sounds like head canon to me

It still seems like you're trying to apply time-traveling limitations to a multiple-infinite-universes game. For instance, past Dewitt probably wasn't drowned by his daughter who never existed while a religious flock disappeared into nothingness for dramatic effect. That isn't even what we witnessed. Modern Dewitt on the fifth dimension (so all Dewitts) was drowned by the eventual outcome of his choices throughout the fifth dimension (so his and Comstock's) starting in the river that's also on the fifth dimension (so all the rivers that all the Dewitts had stood in). The end result could be that the event in which Dewitt made the choice to be baptized never happened, not that he died.

But I wouldn't know for sure, I'm not one of the Luteces.
Why I say that sounds like an admission of head canon... At least you admit it, which is quite sporting.

I just want to make it clear, if you have to invent your own head canon to understand the ending, this is the defining characteristic of a Gainax ending.

Gainax endings aren't inherently bad. However when the rest of the narrative doesn't support it, it becomes bad.
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

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Drunk3nMonk3y said:
It's not a gainax ending because in the grand scheme of things it makes sense, with the content that's on the disk. You don't have to have outside knowledge via discussions to make complete sense of it. A gainax ending is a total mindfuck that makes no sense upon first viewing. Bioshock infinite makes sense, you aren't clear on the details, but you grasp what actually happened. A true gainax ending would have you utterly confused, this does not.
Actually, if you've been diligent enough in finding voxophones and been attentive to your surroundings and plot exposition dialogue you'll have a pretty much perfect understanding of what is going on plotwise. I only got about 70 out of 80 voxophones and I can't say that there were any major plotholes to fill out for me, but much of what I saw only made sense because I had taken the time to listen to the exposition going on in the voxophones.

The Ubermensch said:
A decision he made out of context at a point after my suspension of disbelief had been broken.
"I stopped paying attention so the plot didn't made sense, thus the plot sucks" is not a good argument. The game might have pushed you over the edge when it came to retaining suspension of disbelief, but the better part of the last half of the game is spent building up DeWitt's realization and regret of the fact that he is the reason for all the terrible things going on in Columbia. His decision is made very much in the context of his realization that he can actually "wash away his sins", a chance to do the right thing instead of re-threading what he did after Wounded Knee.

The game juxtaposes his false baptism and entrance into a "false heaven" in the early game with his earnest willingness to repent and do good in the final sequence, which is a "true" baptism in that he sacrifices to rid the world of his sins.

Sounds like head canon to me
The proper answer to the question how the final scene makes sense is: Elizabeth can manipulate the multiverse in any way she sees fit. She is using her powers to eradicate Comstock from all existence, her ability to do this is foreshadowed during the sequence with Lady Comstock, when she creates the ghost of Lady Comstock instead of actually summoning an alternate dimension Lady Comstock. Elizabeth also tells you, several times, that before the Siphon was turned on she could "create realities" and likens her ability to create rifts to "wish fulfillment".

Why I say that sounds like an admission of head canon... At least you admit it, which is quite sporting.

I just want to make it clear, if you have to invent your own head canon to understand the ending, this is the defining characteristic of a Gainax ending.

Gainax endings aren't inherently bad. However when the rest of the narrative doesn't support it, it becomes bad.
This isn't a gainax ending however, you just haven't paid enough attention during the game to fully piece it together. Whatever it was a good decision to leave most of the exposition need to piece together the ending as optional collectibles is another discussion in and off itself, but someone who is paying attention to voxes and environments can easily piece it all together.

The fact that you didn't even realize that the AD-mark was something unique to Booker as penitence for giving away his daughter only reinforces the notion that you should replay the game instead of trying to press your notion that it contains a gainax ending, because obviously there are several of us who made more sense of it because we paid more attention during the game.