Bioshock: Infinite and other FPS's.. am i missing something?

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The White Hunter

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hazabaza1 said:
Honestly I don't get people who say it's bad either. It's probably one of my favourite modern shooter systems in a loooooooong time. No regenerating health, cool magic (well vigors but basically magic), the feel of the guns, the ammo scavenging, I really liked it.
Don't forget all the zooming around on sky hooks like some kind of space pirate, diving down on an unsuspecting mook, beating him down with your buzz saw, throwing fire and crows all over the place then making a swift exit on the sky rails...
 

Nouw

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For me it comes down to a few things. In no particular order...

1. The two-weapon limit. Why? Just why? If you're going to introduce more weapons in this game what is the point of letting us only carry two at a time? Even more profound is the weapon upgrade station which can be unreliable as you're constantly picking up and dropping weapons, some of which you put upgrades into but can't use because you ran out of ammo and the situation demands you get something else.

2. The lack of ammo-variety. Not only do we have less weapons we can carry, we only have one kind of ammo to carry. No AP, no traps, bleh.

3. The vigor-selection. I would have preferred the ability to scroll through all of my vigors in real-time or at least given me load-outs I can hot-key. It just slowed down the combat, and not in a good way either.

I guess all of these are made worse because they weren't an issue in Bioshock 2. On the bright-side it had sky-hooks, although we couldn't use vigors while using them, and Murder of Crows. Yes I was a fan of Swarm :p.
 

MHR

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^ And those Vox guns amirite? I wanted a second machinegun that's the same but uglier that I have to get separate ammo and upgrades for.

I would tolerate the two weapon limit for reasons of decision making and economizing, but it's ruined when you just pick the two weapons you want to use/upgrade and just buy cheap ammo from the plentiful vending machines.
 

erbi79

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Hm the gameplay is very limited in Infinite, FPS fans just expect a little bit more variety.
Having said that, and I for myself find FPS games to be the second most boring genre in existence (after racing sims ^^) Bioshock Infinte to me, was by far the b est game I have played in a veeeeeeeeeeeery long time.

While I recognized the shortcomings on the gameplay side, I even mentioned them explicitly in my review, to me it was just from beginning to end an amazing experience.

I think it really comes down to what you want from a game, as an rpg fan myself, I value, story, character arc, atmosphere, sound and graphical design, world design and that I actually have to think about, OR am allowed to think about what the game actually means, was much more important then gameplay.

To me it was far beyond in quality then Bioshock 1 and 2 and even much better then System Shock 1 and 2.

But I also can understand people who did not like it becaue they almost always have very good arguments why they did not like it.

It's a bit like David Lynch movies, you love them, hate them or find them barely worth noting ^^

edit: I thin kit was Macus Beer, who really hated the game, who said that Infinte would have been better served at a different genre. That might actually be the case.

edit 2 (sorry!): also consider media overload and that their previews weren't exactly gameplay footage from the final product, many people got really pissed of by that.
 

Adam Jensen_v1legacy

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The thing about Bioshock Infinite is how different the game feels from other shooters in every aspect except the actual shooting. Which is weird. The shooting in Infinite is nothing to write home about. Weapons are a bit dull and the shooting is pretty basic. If the game allowed you to carry more than 2 weapons and if there was no shield regeneration it would have been better. Add different ammo like in the previous titles and you have a perfect game.
 

Maximum Bert

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I dont play that many shooters anymore as I got burned out around Halo 2. But Bioshock Infinites gameplay wasnt great it felt very spongy to me lacked variety and although the weapons sounded good they didnt feel like they had much impact the Vigors were similarly underwhelming basically it didnt feel fine tuned it worked but it wasnt great the story, characters and setting carried that game gameplay was just serviceable.
 

Azahul

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WWmelb said:
I may just do that then, i remember seeing it new for $10 at eb games, so i might just pick it up next time i'm in town.
I'll second the recommendation for Bioshock 2. I actually preferred its story for a number of reasons. Most notably, for a game that spent much of its time criticising objectivism, the original Bioshock spent a helluva lot of time in the upper class areas (possibly to emphasise "look how far they've fallen"). The second, on the other hand, puts the focus squarely on the overwhelming majority of people that have to fail for objectivism's few triumphs to succeed. Sofia Lamb is a considerably better villain than Fontaine, although she unfortunately lacks Ryan's charisma (really the only place I feel the second fails in comparison to the first). So yeah, I heartily recommend it.

Actually, it's interesting that, given that Bioshock 2 was the work of separate studio, so many themes overlap between it and Bioshock: Infinite.

Anyway, on topic, I do agree with you. I find the people calling Bioshock: Infinite's gameplay boring and generic rather astounding. The only conclusion I can draw is that they must mostly be fans of other genres lured in due to the Bioshock franchise's famed story, because most FPS games would be lucky indeed to have combat half as fun as that of any Bioshock.
 

WWmelb

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MHR said:
There's really no variety in the gameplay you do in Infinite. The entirety of the gameplay can be summed up in 2 activities. Clear the setpiece room of samey baddies, and dumpster dive for silver dollars. There are really only 2 types of bad guys. Regular dudes with guns that hang back politely waiting for your shields to regenerate so you can pick them off, and some bigger guys that will actually charge you. Those include the raven warriors, the firemen, and the machinegun patriots. You only see 4 handymen in the whole game and they are really your only "boss" events that all you have to do is outrun while you shoot em.

And then of course you have all the other classic generic elements. Regenerating shields, plentiful health and ammo thanks to the vending machines being so cheap, super generic guns (each having two versions of the same damn weapon), 2 weapon carry limit, and many of the vigors are the same. There's no reason to use all the different vigors. Fire, crows, shock, and bronco are all just different flavors of a Stun+bonus damage move. You pick the one you use and forget about the others. Undertow and charge are fun ways to close a gap between you and the enemy so you can feel like a beast while clobbering them, but they're really more like toys than actual useful abilities. Then there's possession which is just a rage spell that costs you a lot of mana and works on only 1 guy at a time for a short while. Return to sender is the only one that seems both unique AND useful.

Yeah it's a shooter and it would be a bad shooter if it didn't make the shooting fun, and it does, but other shooters offer the same things except better.

Sounds like the OP just hasn't played a lot of shooters to realize this. If all he tried was counter-strike and fourth of a playthrough of Half-Life, of course shooters are going to look like nothing but Point-click shooties. Suddenly if he were to see one with SPELLS wowza! That's a new innovation for him and a gimmick for people who've seen better.
I clearly admitted i didn't really play first person shooters. Don't need what appears to be unnecessary snark thanks. What i was hoping as i asked a few times, was for someone to point me in the direction of where to look in other FPS's that makes them unique and "good" shooters.

I stated i had fun with BS:I's combat, yes because of the combination of vigors and guns. I also said in a later response that the gameplay in the first bioshock was kind of bland, but the knockout story kept me playing through it, so your WHOA ADD MAGIC snide comment seems kind of childish.

Anyways, no i haven't played many shooters, as i said i don't normally enjoy them, but i'd like to if i am missing something which someone can educate me on. I enjoyed half life and half life 2 as the stories were fascinating, but overall found the gameplay of both tedious.

Either way, you tell me other games do something better, can you give me examples? i would love to find a way to enjoy yet another genre of game, so point me to what i should be paying attention to in the FPS genre... or maybe this is futile and i should just right off that i'm not going to enjoy most of them?

Miss G. said:
WWmelb said:
The vigors didn't fit the story really the way plasmids in the first game did, and was kind of just in there because it's bioshock, but they were fun.
The vigors actually do fit the story more than most people believe. The city of Columbia is based on the 'White City' built for the World's Columbian Exposition (aka World's Fair) in Chicago circa 1893 (the same year Columbia is built and the same fair it is presented at in the game's timeline). At these fairs many new inventions are shown off to people so they could see how these things can change their lives for the better e.g CocaCola was just as weird a concept at the time as vigors are in BI. They had advertisements and demos in much the same way and let people try out the new products in hope of catching the interest of future buyers/investors. After success at these fairs a lot of these innovations/inventions become more and more commonplace over time. The vigors don't really seem as integral story-wise because they are just 'one of these newfangled things' to the people of Columbia so they haven't had the chance to really use them and get screwed up like the people of Rapture had as of Booker's arrival.
Nice take, and i like it, and will run with it as it makes me happy to tie the story up a little tighter, thanks you.

SkarKrow said:
hazabaza1 said:
Honestly I don't get people who say it's bad either. It's probably one of my favourite modern shooter systems in a loooooooong time. No regenerating health, cool magic (well vigors but basically magic), the feel of the guns, the ammo scavenging, I really liked it.
Don't forget all the zooming around on sky hooks like some kind of space pirate, diving down on an unsuspecting mook, beating him down with your buzz saw, throwing fire and crows all over the place then making a swift exit on the sky rails...
Yes this certainly helped my enjoyment of the combat and i used the sky-rails a lot, just because they were a blast, not necessarily because i needed to. They were a fun option which i took delight in using at every opportunity i got.

Maybe it was this and the tears opening up other options which made it seem more fun to me, and allowed me to enjoy the combat of a genre i don't normally enjoy.

Either way, hopefully someone can point to the finer details of other FPS games that make them enjoyable that i can look for in future that i may be overlooking in the past.
 

The White Hunter

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WWmelb said:
Well I thought that might be why you had liked it more than other fps's. FPS games are some of my favourites and I like a whole variety, from military shooters to crazy old school run n gun stuff.

I'm quite fond of things that are more about accuracy and teamwork when it comes to multiplayer, so things like Bad Company or Killzone are a bunch of fun multiplayer for me, since it's highly skill based and lacks any of the killstreak bullshit COD's popularised over the years.

If you have a PS3 lying about I recommend playing Resistance 3, it's got a lot of elements and story is very good, and you can play how you want given the vast arsenal it puts at your disposal. Non-regenerating health but with well placed and healthy but not-too-many quantities of them, 8 weapons to carry including everything from rifles to disease cannons each with 2 functions, etc.

Killzone 2 and 3 have very satisfying gunplay but are also fairly militaristic and have a lot of more modern features people often dislike.

Multiplatform wise:
Far Cry 3 is a big open world fuck around with good shooting and lots of open world goodness. It has atrocious tearing issues on consoles though.

The first BioShock could be worth a look, it's a bunch of fun and is certainly quite unique.

Battlefield Bad Company 2 is fucking amazing and still very well populated on both console and PC, I prefer it on console for various reasons. It's a not-so-serious military shooter with an emphasis on squad based combat and tactical gameplay in multiplayer, with a heft does of blowing shit up and vehicle gameplay. Driving tanks through walls and such, collapsing buildings, tonnes of fun with a few friends.

Most of these games do involve shooting dudes. A lot of the appeal is in multiplayer for most people, and for single player it's hard to explain. Things like cod aren't very satisfying to play and don't offer much challenge. A good fps campaign either needs to have you moving all the time and going crazy or it needs to force you to use cover and your environment through agressive AI and good stage design.

There's likely plenty out there for you. I'll also throw in a last minute recommendation for Metroid Prime trilogy on the Wii.

Also, I used to hate FPS's :p then I bothered to learn some more interesting ones, after friends tried to get me into COD I played KIllzone 2 and had a blast because it was far more challenging, with more interesting settings and a more interesting world.
 

WWmelb

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SkarKrow said:
WWmelb said:
Lots of stuff thanks!
Well, i can't say i've played a Resistance game, and i must admit that since the days of quake, i've played little except of the CoD type games, so if it's different in a rather large way, i may have to check it out.

And far cry 3 was interesting to me, so maybe i will check it out too.. not sure if my PC would handle it though. Looks kind of system heavy.

If i can't get into these .. maybe i should just admit that FPS's really aren't for me and move on lol. Gah. Just so many games going to waste that i want to love lol
 

secretkeeper12

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Well I for one am a HUGE fan of Team Fortress 2, and it seems like you'd be too. The gameplay is objective based, so there's more to do than just kill, Kill, KILL! along with the variety in class gameplay and the dozens upon dozens of unlockable weapons weapons could give you the diversity you enjoy. Plus it's 100% free, so you've really got nothing to lose checking it out. All you need is a Steam account (which any PC gamer needs anyways) and you're good to install. Whatever you do, though, do NOT get addicted to 2fort!
 

Smooth Operator

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Well OP you probably liked it because the game is dead simple even on Hard setting, and because the shooting part is paper thin, on top of that all the powers you get make the shooting even simpler.

Sadly I did play great FPS games before so the combat mode in Infinite just leaves a very bad aftertaste.
 

Miss G.

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WWmelb said:
Miss G. said:
WWmelb said:
The vigors didn't fit the story really the way plasmids in the first game did, and was kind of just in there because it's bioshock, but they were fun.
The vigors actually do fit the story more than most people believe. The city of Columbia is based on the 'White City' built for the World's Columbian Exposition (aka World's Fair) in Chicago circa 1893 (the same year Columbia is built and the same fair it is presented at in the game's timeline). At these fairs many new inventions are shown off to people so they could see how these things can change their lives for the better e.g CocaCola was just as weird a concept at the time as vigors are in BI. They had advertisements and demos in much the same way and let people try out the new products in hope of catching the interest of future buyers/investors. After success at these fairs a lot of these innovations/inventions become more and more commonplace over time. The vigors don't really seem as integral story-wise because they are just 'one of these newfangled things' to the people of Columbia so they haven't had the chance to really use them and get screwed up like the people of Rapture had as of Booker's arrival.
Nice take, and i like it, and will run with it as it makes me happy to tie the story up a little tighter, thanks you.[
No problem. I just feel sad when the historical parallels Levine based them (and the setting of the whole game) on gets overlooked or thought of as a "because Bioshock" hand wave; especially by prominent reviewers like Yatzee and The Spoony One who do just that. If anything, BI is the kind of game that makes it's time-period setting something you should look up to get even more of a grasp on the story and why certain things are the way they are e.g looking up what Pinkertons did or how non-black minorities were treated at the time etc. You'll be amazed by what you can dig up and that's what I think interests a history buff like Levine in this part of his work, setting his stories in interesting times.
 

WWmelb

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Miss G. said:
WWmelb said:
Miss G. said:
WWmelb said:
The vigors didn't fit the story really the way plasmids in the first game did, and was kind of just in there because it's bioshock, but they were fun.
The vigors actually do fit the story more than most people believe. The city of Columbia is based on the 'White City' built for the World's Columbian Exposition (aka World's Fair) in Chicago circa 1893 (the same year Columbia is built and the same fair it is presented at in the game's timeline). At these fairs many new inventions are shown off to people so they could see how these things can change their lives for the better e.g CocaCola was just as weird a concept at the time as vigors are in BI. They had advertisements and demos in much the same way and let people try out the new products in hope of catching the interest of future buyers/investors. After success at these fairs a lot of these innovations/inventions become more and more commonplace over time. The vigors don't really seem as integral story-wise because they are just 'one of these newfangled things' to the people of Columbia so they haven't had the chance to really use them and get screwed up like the people of Rapture had as of Booker's arrival.
Nice take, and i like it, and will run with it as it makes me happy to tie the story up a little tighter, thanks you.[
No problem. I just feel sad when the historical parallels Levine based them (and the setting of the whole game) on gets overlooked or thought of as a "because Bioshock" hand wave; especially by prominent reviewers like Yatzee and The Spoony One who do just that. If anything, BI is the kind of game that makes it's time-period setting something you should look up to get even more of a grasp on the story and why certain things are the way they are e.g looking up what Pinkertons did or how non-black minorities were treated at the time etc. You'll be amazed by what you can dig up and that's what I think interests a history buff like Levine in this part of his work, setting his stories in interesting times.
I'm an australian, but was already pretty well familiar with all of the other historical references (or main ones) in the game. but the worlds fair thing kinda flew over my head, would not have even known WHAT to look up for that one in the first place, so it's appreciated.

In that sense, maybe they needed to give a little more explanation within the narrative so it didn't come off that way. Small criticism though.
 

The White Hunter

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WWmelb said:
SkarKrow said:
WWmelb said:
Lots of stuff thanks!
Well, i can't say i've played a Resistance game, and i must admit that since the days of quake, i've played little except of the CoD type games, so if it's different in a rather large way, i may have to check it out.

And far cry 3 was interesting to me, so maybe i will check it out too.. not sure if my PC would handle it though. Looks kind of system heavy.

If i can't get into these .. maybe i should just admit that FPS's really aren't for me and move on lol. Gah. Just so many games going to waste that i want to love lol
No problem, I should point out that Resistance and Killzone are PlayStation exclusives, for clarity, otherwise it's all multiplatform.
 

Miss G.

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WWmelb said:
Miss G. said:
WWmelb said:
Miss G. said:
WWmelb said:
The vigors didn't fit the story really the way plasmids in the first game did, and was kind of just in there because it's bioshock, but they were fun.
The vigors actually do fit the story more than most people believe. The city of Columbia is based on the 'White City' built for the World's Columbian Exposition (aka World's Fair) in Chicago circa 1893 (the same year Columbia is built and the same fair it is presented at in the game's timeline). At these fairs many new inventions are shown off to people so they could see how these things can change their lives for the better e.g CocaCola was just as weird a concept at the time as vigors are in BI. They had advertisements and demos in much the same way and let people try out the new products in hope of catching the interest of future buyers/investors. After success at these fairs a lot of these innovations/inventions become more and more commonplace over time. The vigors don't really seem as integral story-wise because they are just 'one of these newfangled things' to the people of Columbia so they haven't had the chance to really use them and get screwed up like the people of Rapture had as of Booker's arrival.
Nice take, and i like it, and will run with it as it makes me happy to tie the story up a little tighter, thanks you.[
No problem. I just feel sad when the historical parallels Levine based them (and the setting of the whole game) on gets overlooked or thought of as a "because Bioshock" hand wave; especially by prominent reviewers like Yatzee and The Spoony One who do just that. If anything, BI is the kind of game that makes it's time-period setting something you should look up to get even more of a grasp on the story and why certain things are the way they are e.g looking up what Pinkertons did or how non-black minorities were treated at the time etc. You'll be amazed by what you can dig up and that's what I think interests a history buff like Levine in this part of his work, setting his stories in interesting times.
I'm an australian, but was already pretty well familiar with all of the other historical references (or main ones) in the game. but the worlds fair thing kinda flew over my head, would not have even known WHAT to look up for that one in the first place, so it's appreciated.

In that sense, maybe they needed to give a little more explanation within the narrative so it didn't come off that way. Small criticism though.
Yeah, Bahamian here. I knew what to look for only because of the American (we don't have much of our own channels like I see other countries have) programming we had in The Bahamas. Now that I live in the US I have the History channel. Historical documentaries of events in other countries and cultures are always something I either enjoy or at least gain a new appreciation for how things have changed for the better or alternatively how much history tends to repeat itself and our nature as humans to not learn our lesson.
 

MysticSlayer

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WWmelb said:
Is there some subtle nuance to FPS games (only talking single player campaigns here) that I miss for the most part that makes them generally all feel the same to me?

What about BS:I was dull for most FPS fans with the combat?
The thing about BioShock: Infinite is that it is incredibly watered down compared to the past games in the series. In the first two games you had different ammo types, which were either better to use against certain enemies (ex. armor piercing ammo against Big Daddies vs. Anti-Personnel ammo against splicers) or had strategic advantages (ex. Trap Bolts on your crossbow allowed you to set up defensive positions). You had the ability to research enemies for combat bonuses and upgrades, and if you researched the security systems you could bypass the hacking mini-game. There was also the element of hacking the security to turn it to your side and set up areas where you could take an advantage over your enemies. The vigors were also incredibly basic compared to the first two games in what you could do. Whereas BioShock had Enrage, Hypnotize Big Daddy, and Security Bullseye all centered around turning the environment against your opponent, Infinite only had Possession, which was not only near useless given the amount of Salts it used up but was also very limited in its usefulness compared to what the three plasmids in the earlier games could be used for (that's just one example).

Thing is, none of the games in the BioShock series have been praised for their combat, but while the first two games gave us things to do in the combat that few other games offered, such as environmental manipulation, Infinite had little to recommend its combat outside of seriously butchered elements from the first two games. For me, going back and playing the first BioShock game shortly after Infinite, I could easily see just how much more there was to do in the first game and just how generic Infinite was compared to the first two. Yeah, it has its own uniqueness compared to most FPS games, but it is nowhere near the same level as its predecessors, and I'd imagine a lot of people are ticked off about that.

Also, it doesn't help that most of Infinite's combat is incredibly campy and based on taking cover and whatnot. Yes, there are those occasional battles with the skylines, but they weren't as realized as they could have been or used as often as they should have been. To make matters worse, controlling Booker is made slower than most other games, so it only emphasizes the slower nature of the combat. To top it all off, you're all by yourself most of the game, so there's no sense of adrenaline that some people get by rushing around with a group of allies quickly taking out enemies. Games like Call of Duty utilize the same campy style that Infinite uses throughout most of the game, but they are comparatively faster, which is saying something about how slow Infinite is considering those games are slower than a lot of other FPS games like the early DOOM games.

In short, Infinite is really just the victim of comparison. All of its uniqueness is rendered pointless when you consider just how generic it is compared to its predecessors, and its style of gunplay is made ridiculously slow and clunky to the point where even slow and clunky FPS games are faster and smoother than it is. Part of the point of FPS games is the adrenaline rush you get from the combat, and outside of a few firefights, Infinite just doesn't capture that. It doesn't even manage to capture the excitement and fun you can have by messing around with the different plasmids of the first two games and seeing what you can do with them all. The end result is a game that really has nothing going for it if you've played enough games from the FPS genre.