Bioshock Infinite Questions (SPOILERS!)

[Spoonius]

I'm probably over-thinking this and no doubt have missed half the answers throughout my first playthrough, but I have some questions about the narrative and themes behind the game. It's all too rare to come across a game that inspires so much afterthought, and I enjoyed every moment of Infinite!

Anyway:

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1. I'm assuming the many 'alternate realities' represent Bioshock's take on the multiverse theory. So what IS a tear? And how is Elizabeth actually able to not only open them but analyse several (if not all) alternate realities simultaneously? Is she just 'remembering' them, like the minor characters throughout the game who were driven crazy in the timelines where they hadn't died?

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2. How are Comstock and Booker both in the same reality? At which point did one of them switch over? It HAD to be before the part when Anna loses a finger, as they were both present in Robert Lutece's New York at that moment in time.

Or was that scene a result of Booker being transferred INTO that reality by Elizabeth at that specific point in time? My memory is a little hazy.

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3. Why couldn't Booker remember giving away Anna, or her losing half a finger? He thought she'd died. Was this a result of his brain synthesising artificial memories in order to fill in the gaps?

If so, why did he have those artificial memories in the first place again? Why were there gaps to begin with?

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4. In relation to the whole drowning thing, in hindsight how does that actually prevent Comstock or fix anything? Isn't he just a single version of Booker killing himself AFTER the aforementioned pivotal point in his life (accepting the baptism or walking away)?

Or are we playing as the old Booker AT that pivotal point in his life, who is able to 'remember' the future realities but hasn't actually fulfilled any of them yet? If so, then why can he suddenly remember them? Shouldn't everything have been exactly the same as the 'first' time it happened? I don't understand how that one predecessor reality could have been affected by one or more of its subsequent realities.

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5. Moving onto another subject, how was Booker DeWitt even able to found Columbia and become "the Prophet"? As far as I know this isn't explained, it's not like we see him as a sufficiently successful, wealthy or religious figure in any alternative realities, just a man in colossal debt...

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6.Where was Anna conceived again? And by who? Booker was sterile. I forget exactly what Rosalind Lutece said on the voxophone recordings, but I'm assuming the Luteces had something to do with it?

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7. How did Comstock predict that Booker would reach Columbia? Could he perceive alternate realities via Elizabeth?

Assuming that Comstock could predict everything, why did he have such a hard time stopping Booker? And couldn't he have foretold his fate at Booker's hands? More to the point, why the hell couldn't Elizabeth herself?

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8. Last of all, what were the Luteces actually hoping to achieve? It was them who tasked him with getting back his daughter (not that he knew it) in the first place after all. Right?

Was it just an experiment? Was their overarching plan just to stir the pot and observe how things progressed? Which occurrences are constants (the coin toss) and which are variables (the pendant)? Going by the tally on Robert's chalkboard they'd been going at it a long time.

 

[The_Blue_Rider]

Infinite isnt the easiest story to follow, but it just seems like you werent paying attention at some parts

I'm probably over-thinking this and no doubt have missed half the answers throughout my first playthrough, but I have some questions about the narrative and themes behind the game. It's all too rare to come across a game that inspires so much afterthought, and I enjoyed every moment of Infinite!

Anyway:

.

1. I'm assuming the many 'alternate realities' represent Bioshock's take on the multiverse theory. So what IS a tear? And how is Elizabeth actually able to not only open them but analyse several (if not all) alternate realities simultaneously? Is she just 'remembering' them, like the minor characters throughout the game who were driven crazy in the timelines where they hadn't died?

.

Elizabeth is able to open tears between realities because when she was taken by Comstock, her little finger was severed by a closing tear. Her simultaneous existence between realities gave her this ability. This is one that probably isnt the easiest to figure out, as you can only discover it by listening to a Voxaphone where Rosalind Lutece theorizes her missing finger to be the cause of her powers

2. How are Comstock and Booker both in the same reality? At which point did one of them switch over? It HAD to be before the part when Anna loses a finger, as they were both present in Robert Lutece's New York at that moment in time.

Or was that scene a result of Booker being transferred INTO that reality by Elizabeth at that specific point in time? My memory is a little hazy.

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Comstock came into Booker's reality to take Elizabeth back to his. Booker was then bought to Comstock's reality by the Lutece's at the start of the game to get Elizabeth back and make things right. There is a scene near the end which explicitly shows this

3. Why couldn't Booker remember giving away Anna, or her losing half a finger? He thought she'd died. Was this a result of his brain synthesising artificial memories in order to fill in the gaps?

If so, why did he have those artificial memories in the first place again? Why were there gaps to begin with?

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Booker was bought into a different reality at the start of the game, since he already existed in this reality as Comstock he had a mass of connflicting memories leading to him creating new ones in their place

4. In relation to the whole drowning thing, in hindsight how does that actually prevent Comstock or fix anything? Isn't he just a single version of Booker killing himself AFTER the aforementioned pivotal point in his life (accepting the baptism or walking away)?

Or are we playing as the old Booker AT that pivotal point in his life, who is able to 'remember' the future realities but hasn't actually fulfilled any of them yet? If so, then why can he suddenly remember them? Shouldn't everything have been exactly the same as the 'first' time it happened? I don't understand how that one predecessor reality could have been affected by one or more of its subsequent realities.

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Remember that thing about universal constants? Things that happen no matter what, throughout all universes (Such as Booker flipping the coin to heads, or picking the ball #77). Elizabeth and Booker create a constant where if he accepts the baptism after Wounded Knee, he is drowned, thus preventing Comstock and Columbia from ever existing

5. Moving onto another subject, how was Booker DeWitt even able to found Columbia and become "the Prophet"? As far as I know this isn't explained, it's not like we see him as a sufficiently successful, wealthy or religious figure in any alternative realities, just a man in colossal debt...

.

After he became Comstock he clearly turned his life around. Just because Booker DeWitt fell into debt, doesnt mean Comstock will. Besides all Booker's money problems started after he refused the baptism

6.Where was Anna conceived again? And by who? Booker was sterile. I forget exactly what Rosalind Lutece said on the voxophone recordings, but I'm assuming the Luteces had something to do with it?

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Comstock was sterile because of his repeated use of tears to see the future. Booker never did this so he wasnt sterile


7. How did Comstock predict that Booker would reach Columbia? Could he perceive alternate realities via Elizabeth?

Assuming that Comstock could predict everything, why did he have such a hard time stopping Booker? And couldn't he have foretold his fate at Booker's hands? More to the point, why the hell couldn't Elizabeth herself?

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Comstock could see alternate realities through the Lutece's machine, his overuse of it caused his aging to accelerate and for him to become sterile. As well as developing some form of cancer I believe. I also dont know to what degree of accuracy Comstock could see the future. Also Elizabeth's reality shifting powers probably threw his predictions a little off

8. Last of all, what were the Luteces actually hoping to achieve? It was them who tasked him with getting back his daughter (not that he knew it) in the first place after all. Right?

Was it just an experiment? Was their overarching plan just to stir the pot and observe how things progressed? Which occurrences are constants (the coin toss) and which are variables (the pendant)? Going by the tally on Robert's chalkboard they'd been going at it a long time.

The Lutece's felt guilty about their involvement, and their entire plan of sending Booker into an alternate dimension to rescue his daughter was their way of trying to make things right.

 

[BreakfastMan]

My take...

1: She has her body in two separate universes, so she can see and perceive tears. It is only when her full powers are restored at the end that she can see and walk through all alternate universes.

2: Because they are? Comstock hopped over to Booker's universe and made a deal with him for his daughter. Pretty simple, this one.

3: He was stinking drunk at the time he saw Anna's transference between universes (something he wouldn't had understood when he saw it anyway), and drank heavily all around that time. That can result in serious memory loss, which is where the gaps come in. When he was transferred to comstock's universe, his memories start to jumble.

4: Constants and variables. The moment in time was a constant, and who Booker became after it was also constants. By killing the Booker who accepts baptism, he kills comstock.

5: He became a different man, and used his influence and charisma to draw people to him. This eventually led to him drawing Lutece, who built a device that allowed him to see into the future, which increased his flock even more.

6: By Booker? Booker wasn't made sterile by the Luteces' machine. Comstock was.

7: As I said before, he could see the future through the Luteces' machine, before it was destroyed. He obviously looked far enough ahead to figure out what was going to happen, but he doesn't have the power of clairvoyance, and neither does Elizibeth (for most of the game, anyway).

8: Set right their wrongs, stop the apocalypse, and reverse their status as inter-dimensional ghost people.

 

[BreakfastMan]

By killing the Booker who accepts baptism, he kills comstock.

I know someone will likely quote this and say something like "But in many other different universes Booker DIDN'T drown, and still went on to become Comstock, so it was all for nothing!"

I'm preempting someone saying this because it's not actually correct.

The scene where all the Elizabeths are drowning Booker is showing how they're making sure that none of the Bookers that go through with the baptism ever emerge from it alive. Thereby ensuring that Comstock never exists, and by extension, Columbia never exists either. (In fact, Elizabeth as we know her, with her tear ability, never exists either. Which is a bit paradoxical, but anyway...)

The point is, any Booker in the multiverse that DOESN'T go through with the baptism, lives on as normal. Whereas any Booker that DOES go through with the baptism, drowns in it.

Eh, I thought that one of the constants was that if Booker goes through with the baptism, he becomes Comstock, and they were cutting off that constant by drowning him at the moment in time and stopping the other universes from ever being created, but that works too. Basically, cutting down the base of a tree to remove the branches.

 

[Joccaren]

1. I'm assuming the many 'alternate realities' represent Bioshock's take on the multiverse theory. So what IS a tear? And how is Elizabeth actually able to not only open them but analyse several (if not all) alternate realities simultaneously? Is she just 'remembering' them, like the minor characters throughout the game who were driven crazy in the timelines where they hadn't died?

"Apparently the universe doesn't like its peas mixed with its porridge" - R. Lutece.
The quote goes something like that anyway. Basically, Elizabeth exists in multiple universes at the same time - the universe she originally came from, where her finger is, and the universe she is taken to by Comstock. Because of this the universe isn't happy, and allows her to open tears between different universes. It does kinda skip a step in the way of "Why is the universe unhappy, and how does this cause her to be able to open tears", but that's something that we don't know. There may well be an in-universe explanation for it, but nobody has figured it out. The universe just does that.

2. How are Comstock and Booker both in the same reality? At which point did one of them switch over? It HAD to be before the part when Anna loses a finger, as they were both present in Robert Lutece's New York at that moment in time.

My bets on when the swap over occurs is at the boat ride in the beginning. The Luteces likely take you from the original Booker Universe to the Comstock/Columbia Universe. Another contender for when this happens is during the lighthouse sequence. The whole both of them being there earlier is kinda irrelevant as a) That was a different universe, I'll touch on this later, and b) it happened in the past.

Or was that scene a result of Booker being transferred INTO that reality by Elizabeth at that specific point in time? My memory is a little hazy.

This.

3. Why couldn't Booker remember giving away Anna, or her losing half a finger? He thought she'd died. Was this a result of his brain synthesising artificial memories in order to fill in the gaps?

If so, why did he have those artificial memories in the first place again? Why were there gaps to begin with?

Because the Booker we play never had Anna to give away. She did die during childbirth. At least in his universe. Note how the first time Comstock mentions Anna Booker bleeds. He probably didn't even have an Anna that died during childbirth in his memory until that point. When he moved to a different universe where such things happened, his mind synthesised new memories of what happened in each of those universes, having him become the Booker that gave away Anna, as opposed to the one that never even had her.

4. In relation to the whole drowning thing, in hindsight how does that actually prevent Comstock or fix anything? Isn't he just a single version of Booker killing himself AFTER the aforementioned pivotal point in his life (accepting the baptism or walking away)?

Or are we playing as the old Booker AT that pivotal point in his life, who is able to 'remember' the future realities but hasn't actually fulfilled any of them yet? If so, then why can he suddenly remember them? Shouldn't everything have been exactly the same as the 'first' time it happened? I don't understand how that one predecessor reality could have been affected by one or more of its subsequent realities.

The game transforms our Booker into the Booker at that point, and Elizabeth opens the door to that point in time when Booker would have accepted the baptism. Basically, you free Elizabeth, allowing her to master her powers and use them, and whilst doing so you become a substitute for the Booker at that time. Elizabeth shows you what happened to create her, then lets you choose what to do about Comstock. Its your choice, and that's an important point. You aren't forced into any of it. However, once you've made your choice she inserts you into that timeline, replacing the Booker that was there with you, and drowns you after you accept the Baptism. This part is largely more symbolic than anything else, seeing as its more meant to be that the priest drowned you during the baptism rather than an assortment of random women appearing and drowning you, but for all Bookers that accept the Baptism, they are drowned.

5. Moving onto another subject, how was Booker DeWitt even able to found Columbia and become "the Prophet"? As far as I know this isn't explained, it's not like we see him as a sufficiently successful, wealthy or religious figure in any alternative realities, just a man in colossal debt...

Those are all realities in which he turned down the baptism. In these realities he decides to take responsibility for what he's done, and drinks and gambles to try and forget the horrors he committed at Wounded Knee.
In the universes where he accepts the Baptism, he treats it as a get out of sin free card. Its not his fault that he did those horrible things at Wounded Knee. Hell, they weren't even horrible things. They were great hero tales. He becomes charismatic and influential, and begins rallying people to his cause - building a flying city in the sky he supposedly saw in a vision with the Angel Columbia during his baptism. He began searching for people that could make this happen, and found R. Lutece - a brilliant Quantum Physicist. Not only did he get Lutece to help him build Columbia and make it fly, he also used a machine made by Lutece to look into other realities and see what happened there, using that to make prophecies about what would happen in his reality. When these prophecies became true, more people heralded him as a prophet and worshiped him, following his word. He also used this machine to take Anna.

6.Where was Anna conceived again? And by who? Booker was sterile. I forget exactly what Rosalind Lutece said on the voxophone recordings, but I'm assuming the Luteces had something to do with it?

Anna was conceived in the Booker universes where he turned down the baptism. In these universes Booker never became influential, never founded Columbia, and never met Lutece. Having never met Lutece, he never used the machine that Lutece made. The Lutece recording states that Lutece believes constant exposure to other universes weakens the traits of the one visiting those universes, or removes them entirely - in this case making Comstock, who used the machine, sterile. Since Booker never used the machine, he never became sterile, got a woman pregnant, had baby Anna, and sold her to get out of gambling debt, or she died during childbirth, or he never had her at all all dependent on the universe.

7. How did Comstock predict that Booker would reach Columbia? Could he perceive alternate realities via Elizabeth?

Assuming that Comstock could predict everything, why did he have such a hard time stopping Booker? And couldn't he have foretold his fate at Booker's hands? More to the point, why the hell couldn't Elizabeth herself?

Comstock used the Lutece's machine to see the future, not Elizabeth [At this point he didn't even have Elizabeth]. In viewing some of the other realities he would have noticed that Booker DeWitt had come to those realities to get Anna back, so he came back and foretold that it would happen.
Neither Comstock nor Elizabeth have the power of Clairvoyance though. Another Lutece Voxophone recording sums it up perfectly "What Comstock fails to realise is that it isn't prophecy, but probability" - or something like that anyway. In each of these universes there is something different. What happens in one will not necessarily happen in another, its all just probability. There is a high likelihood of it happening in his universe, but it isn't perfect. Hence why another voice recording says that the Prophet foretold the coming of the False Shepard, but was wrong about the day. In the universe he saw where DeWitt came it was that day that he came. In this universe its another day. Probability, not prophecy.
As to why Elizabeth can't see the future and stuff before the end of the game; the Siphon. The thing you destroy at the end of the game in her tower, after which she teleports you to Rapture. That harnessed her power, stopped her from having its full potential, and allowed Comstock to use it as he saw fit.

8. Last of all, what were the Luteces actually hoping to achieve? It was them who tasked him with getting back his daughter (not that he knew it) in the first place after all. Right?

Was it just an experiment? Was their overarching plan just to stir the pot and observe how things progressed? Which occurrences are constants (the coin toss) and which are variables (the pendant)? Going by the tally on Robert's chalkboard they'd been going at it a long time.

I'd argue that it was part experiment, part not.
There are a series of Voxophones where Rosalind Lutece makes it clear that Robert is unhappy about having helped Comstock get Anna, and that if they do not try to right this wrong he will leave her. She wants to stay with her "Brother" forever, so she obeys and helps him undo what they had done.
At the same time, they both refer to it as an experiment at the start of the game, so it is likely that whilst undoing what they had done they were treating it as an experiment into constants and variables, and how slight changes make universes very different from one another.

 

[I am Harbinger]

Saw it come up a couple of times here, thought I'd give my two cents: the answer to your last question is actually that Mr. Lutece wanted to set things right, Ms. Lutece didn't seem to care much, and only went along with her 'brother' because he threatened to leave her, forever, if she didn't. I know I found a voxophone that explained that, but I can't blame anyone for not finding it too. Just wanted to set the record straight that it was Mr. Lutece specifically who wanted to fix things, not both of them.

 

[Fishes]

I have a couple of questions to add.

Spoiler

Does the game actually say why only Elizabeth has such powers? Other then the pinky thing of course, because we all leave parts of ourselves everywhere we go. That is why you can use forensic science to catch bad guys.

That, and it seems to me that a megalomaniac might be willing to part with a finger in exchange for absolute power. Or you know, some hair.

Second question: Does the game actually say why there is no 'evil' version of Elizabeth? I can buy that one girl who was neglected, abused, and traumatized might still end up a hero if they suddenly inherit omnipotence. Times that by infinity however, and it seems dubious.

 

[Robot Number V]

1. I actually have (what I think is) my own take on this. My theory is that there is actually only one universe at any given time. All the other infinite realities dont' actually exist until somebody observes them. Think about Shrodinger's Cat. While the box is closed, the cat is both dead AND alive, until someone opens the box and observes it in either state. At this point, one of the realities collapses, leaving the cat in the state it's observed in. The Lutece's essentially discovered a way to view the cat in both states simultaneously. Elizabeth's powers take this one step further. She can not only see the cat in both states, but choose which state will collapse, and which one will become "real". She can see that cat as both alive and dead, and choose which state she prefers. This how the "wish fulfillment" part of it works. She's not choosing from an infinite amount of realities, she's just kind of creating the particular universe that she wants. Until the siphon is destroyed, then she actually IS seeing every single possible reality.(I can only assume this, since she finds Rapture) She's basically a god at that point.

2. Uh, the Lutece's grabbed him ad pulled him into Comstock's universe after Comstock tried to have him killed. This is actually explained pretty thoroughly in the game.

3. Because, as seen by the "dead and alive" soldiers after Elizabeth takes you both through a tear, existing in the same universe as your alternate self tends to mess with your brain. Why were the gaps in Booker's memory so conveniently selective? Because we need a plot twist later, that's why.

4. This is where we get a little metaphysical, although it makes more sense if my "There's only one universe until you observe the other ones" thing is true. That would mean that there really is only one Booker and no Comstocks prior to the baptism, so they CAN just kill one Booker and solve everything. (Except for the paradox of Elizabeth using her powers to prevent the events that gaver her powers)

5. Booker spent twenty years being depressed. Comstock spent 20 years throwing himself into religion and politics. He became a pretty prominent figure even prior to founding Columbia. Booker lost money, Comstock made money.

6. Booker wasn't sterile, Comstock was. The sterility happened as a result of exposure to tears, an experience that Booker never had until long after Anna's birth. He was busy gambling and being depressed while Comstock was screwing with tears.

7. Yes, he did. He could also open tears without her, (since a tear is how he got her in the first place) but it was easier with her around. And secondly, the tears only showed him possible futures, something he didn't understand. He thought his "visions" were set in stone, but they were each just one of infinite possibilites.

8. Honestly, this is a bit ambiguous. At the very beginning of the game, Rosalind refers to whole thing as 'thought experiment", but at the end of the game she also refers to Booker as their "hair shirt". A quick google search told me that hair shirt is a deliberately uncomfortable garment worn my monks as a mark of penance. So it's likely a combination of the two: They wanted to conduct an experiment involving paradoxes and tears, but they also felt guilty about giving Comstock all his power and essentially stealing a baby, and wanted to undo their past mistakes.


It's also important to keep in mind that this game is not perfect, and not everything lines up perfectly, especially where the multiverse is concerned.

 

[Kal-Adam]

The following is a really good, and lengthy, explanation of what happens before, during, and after the events of the game.

Lots of reading here, but I highly recommend reading through it. It should answer all your questions.

Spoiler: Part 1

Spoiler: Part 2

Spoiler: Part 3

This is easily the most helpful and coherent explanations I've seen so far! Thank you!

 

[Karoshi]

Does the game actually say why only Elizabeth has such powers? Other then the pinky thing of course, because we all leave parts of ourselves everywhere we go. That is why you can use forensic science to catch bad guys.

That, and it seems to me that a megalomaniac might be willing to part with a finger in exchange for absolute power. Or you know, some hair.

Well, usually we don't leave those pieces of us in different dimensions.

As for the reason why Comstock didn't do it... He was able to look in the future after all, and perhaps he saw that it wouldn't do him any good. Besides, he was rather old and he planned to fullfil his plan through Elizabeth. He had his "ideals" and he'd die for them.

Second question: Does the game actually say why there is no 'evil' version of Elizabeth? I can buy that one girl who was neglected, abused, and traumatized might still end up a hero if they suddenly inherit omnipotence. Times that by infinity however, and it seems dubious.

But there is an evil version and you even met her! The old Elizabeth is the one that lobotomized almost half of the population and bombed the rest. She regretted it in the end, but in that dimension she is the closest thing to Hitler.

At the end all the Elizabeth's become one. She knows every single path and knows, that if she embraces her powers, she will in the end know nothing but sorrow.

 

[Fishes]

Does the game actually say why only Elizabeth has such powers? Other then the pinky thing of course, because we all leave parts of ourselves everywhere we go. That is why you can use forensic science to catch bad guys.

That, and it seems to me that a megalomaniac might be willing to part with a finger in exchange for absolute power. Or you know, some hair.

Well, usually we don't leave those pieces of us in different dimensions ~snip snip snip~

Spoiler

You do if you go into a different dimension. In your life time you have left an incredible amount of organic matter laying around this world. Step into another dimension, and you are now in one dimension, while a ton of you is in another. Similarly, the act of going to another dimension would mean you leave things like skin and hair and so forth behind. So when you come back home you would still be in two dimensions.

And by evil, I mean acting counter to the efforts of our Elizabeth and Booker.

 

[Karoshi]

Does the game actually say why only Elizabeth has such powers? Other then the pinky thing of course, because we all leave parts of ourselves everywhere we go. That is why you can use forensic science to catch bad guys.

That, and it seems to me that a megalomaniac might be willing to part with a finger in exchange for absolute power. Or you know, some hair.

Well, usually we don't leave those pieces of us in different dimensions ~snip snip snip~

Spoiler

You do if you go into a different dimension. In your life time you have left an incredible amount of organic matter laying around this world. Step into another dimension, and you are now in one dimension, while a ton of you is in another. Similarly, the act of going to another dimension would mean you leave things like skin and hair and so forth behind. So when you come back home you would still be in two dimensions.

And by evil, I mean acting counter to the efforts of our Elizabeth and Booker.

About Comstock: I am not entirely sure how he used the Lutece tears. It may well be that he merely looked through most of them without entering. And mentioned once again - power wasn't his end-goal. His end-goal was creating an Arch and killing everybody "unworthy".

I think when people hear "infinite possibilites" they always assume that absolutely everything is possible. It doesn't have to.

Let's take a math example: There are an infinite amount of number between 1 and 2, if we take such numbers like 1.222 or 1.999999 or 1.763555. We can't take the 9 or 17, but we still got an infinite amount of numbers.

The same is with Bioshock Infinite. Some numbers are constant and some are variables and are prone to change. Elizabeth may be slightly different in each dimension, but some things never change and thus she isn't inclined to stop herself from drowing Booker.

 

[Longstreet]

The following is a really good, and lengthy, explanation of what happens before, during, and after the events of the game.

Lots of reading here, but I highly recommend reading through it. It should answer all your questions.

Spoiler: Part 1

Spoiler: Part 2

Spoiler: Part 3

That was one hell of a read, but totally worth it. Also, makes perfect sense and clears up a lot. Thanks mate.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

And by evil, I mean acting counter to the efforts of our Elizabeth and Booker.

Infinite doesnt mean that everything is possible. For example NO outcome between booker and comstock ended well for everyone which is why booker has to die. Some things are certain in every infinite reality. For Elizabeth to be evil comstock would have to break her because Elizibeth, in ALL versions, is innately good as a teenager. However the breaking process leaches her powers and binds them to make creating a tear painful. We meet an Elizabeth who had this done to her. Basically ALL versions of Elizabeth fit these two roles:

Good with free powers
Evil but leeched powers

So no evil Elizabeths have the means AND the motivation to stop their version of booker and Elizabeth.

 

[Fishes]

Does the game actually say why only Elizabeth has such powers? Other then the pinky thing of course, because we all leave parts of ourselves everywhere we go. That is why you can use forensic science to catch bad guys.

That, and it seems to me that a megalomaniac might be willing to part with a finger in exchange for absolute power. Or you know, some hair.

Well, usually we don't leave those pieces of us in different dimensions ~snip snip snip~

Spoiler

You do if you go into a different dimension. In your life time you have left an incredible amount of organic matter laying around this world. Step into another dimension, and you are now in one dimension, while a ton of you is in another. Similarly, the act of going to another dimension would mean you leave things like skin and hair and so forth behind. So when you come back home you would still be in two dimensions.

And by evil, I mean acting counter to the efforts of our Elizabeth and Booker.

About Comstock: I am not entirely sure how he used the Lutece tears. It may well be that he merely looked through most of them without entering. And mentioned once again - power wasn't his end-goal. His end-goal was creating an Arch and killing everybody "unworthy".

I think when people hear "infinite possibilites" they always assume that absolutely everything is possible. It doesn't have to.

Let's take a math example: There are an infinite amount of number between 1 and 2, if we take such numbers like 1.222 or 1.999999 or 1.763555. We can't take the 9 or 17, but we still got an infinite amount of numbers.

The same is with Bioshock Infinite. Some numbers are constant and some are variables and are prone to change. Elizabeth may be slightly different in each dimension, but some things never change and thus she isn't inclined to stop herself from drowing Booker.

No! I haven't beat it yet!

No!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyway, because we are constantly shedding bio-matter, any inter(extra?)-dimensional traveler would instantly exist into two separate dimensions the moment they stepped into dimension number two. If they spent any amount of time in the second one and stepped into a third, they would exist in three. One would have to walk around in an air tight suit to avoid existing in the state that gave her her powers. Booker, the twins, anyone 'banished' and so forth. As it gives someone the ability to move through time and alter history, the Bioshock world would be oozing with gods.

Heck, Neil Degrasse Tyson is already talking about the probability that humanity will one day step into another dimension as a whole in order to avoid the inevitable collapse of the universe by stepping into an alternate universe in which the big bang cycle isn't repeating it's self.

Wouldn't me hard to imagine a group of people acting to prevent tampering with the time line under such conditions or aspects of Elizabeth who didn't like how messing with the time line changed existence.

As for the existence of infinity between one and two, that is an intellectual construct. You can not not divide one by infinity. If you could, it would give infinity a value of zero. The mere act (state?) of existing means something is a value other then zero, as zero is just how we define perception void, and quantum mechanics denies the existence of void. (aka vacuum)

Infinity, or it's antithesis void, are just intellectual short cuts people use for to numerous to imagine, or too little to bother considering. This makes the question "How plausible is it that aspects of Elizabeth may have acted in different ways?" or some such.

Despite having an extremely traumatizing life, and experiencing and extremely traumatizing event, when Elizabeth is handed ultimate power she acts to preserve her captors/tormentors and diminish their suffering. Some might even say she sacrifices in the name of that incredibly altruistic cause. That is why her character is so powerful for so many. She is an avatar of human nobility, not just power.

Failing to live up to that ideal isn't just plausible, it is the human default. Just look at the existence of Bioshock in a nation that a:bribes farmers to prevent them from growing 'surplus' crops and b: is only a casual traveling distance from Haiti. We don't merely prioritize entertainment over the suffering of others, we actually consider growing extra food a negative, despite the fact that our neighbor starves.

A hero is someone who asks "What else could I have done?" A normal person is just someone who has a list of answers. Answers like "Get of my Dad!" certainly exist.

Man, over-analyzing games is fun! Thanks for taking part.

And by evil, I mean acting counter to the efforts of our Elizabeth and Booker.

Infinite doesnt mean that everything is possible. For example NO outcome between booker and comstock ended well for everyone which is why booker has to die. Some things are certain in every infinite reality. For Elizabeth to be evil comstock would have to break her because Elizibeth, in ALL versions, is innately good as a teenager. However the breaking process leaches her powers and binds them to make creating a tear painful. We meet an Elizabeth who had this done to her. Basically ALL versions of Elizabeth fit these two roles:

Good with free powers
Evil but leeched powers

So no evil Elizabeths have the means AND the motivation to stop their version of booker and Elizabeth.

Please explain this to me? I played most of the game, but I couldn't get through the whole thing and I had to youtube the ending. I think I may have missed the event in question. Perhaps you can tell me what happens before it? When I had to check out I watched a fairly comprehensive collection of the in game events, so if you point to what happened around it the event may click into place, or that may allow me to look it up.

More then understandable though if you you lack the time or inclination.

That said, evil was a very bad word choice on my part. Wishing to slaughter everyone is an act of evil. Resisting the efforts of 'another' who is acting to preserve and defend your tormentors by killing our father isn't.

For example NO outcome between booker and comstock ended well for everyone which is why booker has to die

Oh, and..: Well that really isn't infinity is it? Sounds binary to me.

Edits to avoid multi-posting and such.

 

[MrHide-Patten]

Also dont know to what degree of accuracy Comstock could see the future. Also Elizabeth's reality shifting powers probably threw his predictions a little off.

In a Voxaphone Rosalind says that Comstock percieves the visions as the future, but she correctly theorizes that is actually possibilities or one of many and Comstock took the one he saw as the absolute (his desperation in finding an heir is evident of this I think).
If somebody's already "corrected" you on this, then sorry.

I'd really like to make a thread based on all the nifty connections between Bioshock (the original) and Infinite.
Like a today as I was listening to some of the voice recordings fron the original, where Yu Schong explains the Telekinesis plasmid, he mentions something about not being able to "catch speeding bullets", and "Yu Schong just come up with new idea for plasmid." The Return to Sender Vigor.

But it's probably just a coincidence, but then...

Spoiler

hearing the Songbird screech in the original Bioshock blew my freakin' mind.

 

[Callate]

I finished the game yesterday (had to get a new video card so this was possible; it's been frustrating trying to avoid spoilers for the last couple of weeks, let me tell you.) And honestly, I'm a little disappointed.

Oh, I'm not about to start raving about "worst ending ever" or anything. It's still a beautiful game, and I'm not sorry I played it. The ending makes a kind of sense, I suppose.

Spoiler

But I guess I've played a few too many "tragic ending" games lately; it annoys me to see characters fight so hard and struggle so long towards an ending that amounts to their destruction. (And, yes, I saw the "stinger" ending- though that ending kind of highlights a willingness to "pull the trigger" on a tragic ending while leaving a potentially more positive ending vague.)

Two things in particular, though- one, it feels like the game's script was "spliced together" a few more times than was probably good for it, and the scenes we saw "demoed" that never show up in the game only serve to highlight this. Elizabeth trying to bring the horse back to life? Not there. Elizabeth getting a bloody nose from exerting her powers? Nope. The bell grinding through the city street? No. Pieces of Columbia falling out of the sky? No. Even the "saving Elizabeth from a lynch mob" scene that played recently in an advertisement is a complete fabrication. It seems almost certain this story has gone through multiple revisions, some fairly late in the process, to come to... this... Where moving through alternate realities can do almost anything, up to and including time travel, and with something not unlike a deus ex machina in play we still come to this ending. An ending where, with a nearly infinite number of possibilities, the choices the player makes never amount to anything much more than the cosmetic.

(Does anyone else wonder if that we're to accept the "inevitability" of certain happenings even in a multiple-reality universe lends a certain credence to Comstock's misanthropy?)

With all those possibilities, there was no way to restore Booker's hope for humanity before he made his fateful choice(s)? With the technology of infinite worlds available, there was no way to save the life of Elizabeth's mother? Or even to kill off the "Comstocks" without killing off the player's avatar? It's a little ironic that Infinite works so hard to re-make the point of the original Bioshock about a lack of real player choice in a setting that suggests there's almost nothing but choices; doubly so given that the original Bioshock actually had the main character "break free" of his constraints by the ending, and gave him the opportunity to choose an ending (say what you will of the binary good/evil ending choice.)

Two, and this may in part be a result of the aforementioned splicing- you're denied an awful lot of information in an arbitrary manner, in a way that serves the plot but not much else. Up to the point where you aren't even permitted to know the consequences of Booker's final, linear "choice" to destroy Comstock until just *after* he's made that choice. Of course Booker and Comstock are the same person; isn't that clear in how much alike they look? (No.) That they're voiced by the same person? (They aren't.) That people who know both immediately see the resemblance? ("Comstock wasn't there!", screams Slate.) The Luteces actually do have a pretty good idea what's going on, and even they can't be bothered to interrupt their vaudeville banter long enough to, say, explain the significance of "CAGE"...?

A single choice early on is enough to turn a man from a guilt-stricken would-be hero into a racist demagogue with plans to destroy most of the human race, but the only way "you" can have a similar effect on the plot is to die...? It's... not really the message I wanted to come away with, shall we say.

Call me a sap, if you must, but I want to play the reality where Booker just @#$%ing takes Elizabeth to Paris.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

Please explain this to me? I played most of the game, but I couldn't get through the whole thing and I had to youtube the ending. I think I may have missed the event in question. Perhaps you can tell me what happens before it? When I had to check out I watched a fairly comprehensive collection of the in game events, so if you point to what happened around it the event may click into place, or that may allow me to look it up.

More then understandable though if you you lack the time or inclination.

That said, evil was a very bad word choice on my part. Wishing to slaughter everyone is an act of evil. Resisting the efforts of 'another' who is acting to preserve and defend your tormentors by killing our father isn't.

For example NO outcome between booker and comstock ended well for everyone which is why booker has to die

Oh, and..: Well that really isn't infinity is it? Sounds binary to me.

Theres a scene where you cross a bridge and end up in another universe far into the future. You meet an old Elizibeth in a jail. She explains that she was broken because her powers were bound and since she had no means of escape (easily accessed via her powers) time wore her down until she agreed to unleash the cataclysm on the world below. At this point its clear that any Elizabeth who keeps her powers would just escape comstocks tortures and refuse to bend to his whims. There is no possible way for an evil Elizabeth to emerge with her full powers since she would use them (like she does in your universe when you visit the same jail around the time she first enters it) to rip the jail apart and escape with ease.

Its not so much that events are binary, its that sometimes, even in infinite universes, the odds are stacked against you and you cant win because all of a certain set of outcomes stem from ONE choice. Its like with the gunsmith. He died no matter what happened to him. You have to remember there are universes where booker is neither "booker" or "Comstock" because for example he doesnt join the army and fight at wounded knee. These bookers are irrelevant which is why booker isnt killed as a baby before these events, some of these outcomes are innocent (this is likely one of the bookers you see after the end credits, one who didnt even consider going to a baptism at all). Theres a point though were certain variables line up where some things are certain no matter the choices we make after that certain point. The baptism is this point. After the baptism, no matter what ANYONE does, the variables set up before hand that are necessary for the baptism to happen in the first place mean that the comstocks of the world are destined to exist and destined to win enough times to ruin everything since comstocks are able to screw with all other universes as well.

When an evil can access all realities it wants you have to kill EVERY version of it to properly destroy it or else (from Elizabeths perspective as an omniscient god) he basically is still alive. Thus the moment where EVERY comstock created can be created is the moment that they must be stopped. By drowning. Imagine it like a tree. All the branches represent the outcomes of choices but all connect to the base where the first choice links them all (the baptism). If you stop that first choice all resulting outcomes never happen. Zero comstocks exist. There is zero cross dimensional shenanigans. And so the world wont end in ANY reality at all because you stop it from happening. Of course there are almost infinite universes where the baptism takes place. But Elizabeth takes ALL of them and smashes them together so that ONE drowning kills EVERY booker at EVERY baptism. Its why theres lots of Elizabeths helping.

 

[Fishes]

Please explain this to me? I played most of the game, but I couldn't get through the whole thing and I had to youtube the ending. I think I may have missed the event in question. Perhaps you can tell me what happens before it? When I had to check out I watched a fairly comprehensive collection of the in game events, so if you point to what happened around it the event may click into place, or that may allow me to look it up.

More then understandable though if you you lack the time or inclination.

That said, evil was a very bad word choice on my part. Wishing to slaughter everyone is an act of evil. Resisting the efforts of 'another' who is acting to preserve and defend your tormentors by killing our father isn't.

For example NO outcome between booker and comstock ended well for everyone which is why booker has to die

Oh, and..: Well that really isn't infinity is it? Sounds binary to me.

Theres a scene where you cross a bridge and end up in another universe far into the future. You meet an old Elizibeth in a jail. She explains that she was broken because her powers were bound and since she had no means of escape (easily accessed via her powers) time wore her down until she agreed to unleash the cataclysm on the world below. At this point its clear that any Elizabeth who keeps her powers would just escape comstocks tortures and refuse to bend to his whims. There is no possible way for an evil Elizabeth to emerge with her full powers since she would use them (like she does in your universe when you visit the same jail around the time she first enters it) to rip the jail apart and escape with ease.

Its not so much that events are binary, its that sometimes, even in infinite universes, the odds are stacked against you and you cant win because all of a certain set of outcomes stem from ONE choice. Its like with the gunsmith. He died no matter what happened to him. You have to remember there are universes where booker is neither "booker" or "Comstock" because for example he doesnt join the army and fight at wounded knee. These bookers are irrelevant which is why booker isnt killed as a baby before these events, some of these outcomes are innocent (this is likely one of the bookers you see after the end credits, one who didnt even consider going to a baptism at all). Theres a point though were certain variables line up where some things are certain no matter the choices we make after that certain point. The baptism is this point. After the baptism, no matter what ANYONE does, the variables set up before hand that are necessary for the baptism to happen in the first place mean that the comstocks of the world are destined to exist and destined to win enough times to ruin everything since comstocks are able to screw with all other universes as well.

When an evil can access all realities it wants you have to kill EVERY version of it to properly destroy it or else (from Elizabeths perspective as an omniscient god) he basically is still alive. Thus the moment where EVERY comstock created can be created is the moment that they must be stopped. By drowning. Imagine it like a tree. All the branches represent the outcomes of choices but all connect to the base where the first choice links them all (the baptism). If you stop that first choice all resulting outcomes never happen. Zero comstocks exist. There is zero cross dimensional shenanigans. And so the world wont end in ANY reality at all because you stop it from happening. Of course there are almost infinite universes where the baptism takes place. But Elizabeth takes ALL of them and smashes them together so that ONE drowning kills EVERY booker at EVERY baptism. Its why theres lots of Elizabeths helping.

Thank you for taking the time to explain. I am not sure I am explaining my question very well, so I will try another method.

First, let me remind you of the scale we are talking about. A trillion times a trillion worlds is a huge understatement. A trillion to the power of one trillion is an understatement. While something may seem like an either/or to our limited perspective, nothing happens every single time in a trillion times a trillion cases.

Firearms are a good example given the game in question. If while I am sleeping in the United States someone fires a rifle and assassinates the first redheaded President of Uzbekistan, there is nothing in the world I can do to change the outcome. Sleeping people suck at foiling assassination attempts on the other side of the world. That rifle is however going to catastrophically fail and kill the assassin in at least one case. While the odds of a deadly backfire resulting from a catastrophic failure may be a trillion to one or even rarer, in a trillion times a trillion universes it is as close to inevitable as one can get.

The odd may be stacked against me, but in a multiverse, there are an infinite number of mes rolling the dice, and the life of each me unfolded differently.

And who knows, maybe in one of those universes I just happen to have a drinking problem, and work in a foundry manufacturing weapons commonly sold in Uzbekistan until it is found out many years down the line that I was not actually inspecting the weapons I was claiming to. I just signed off, too hungover to care.

The only way that rifle fires one trillion times a trillion times without a catastrophic failure is if someone loads the metaphorical dice. Predestination guided by a conscious will is required for one event to end in only two ways. In the world of Bioshock, there are a lot of possible explanations for that one. Mostly I am asking if Bioshock pointed to whatever was loading the dice to ensure "There is always a Man, and always a city..." and so forth.

Or if this is just a case of science fiction failing to be so perfectly crafted that even nerds can not pick it apart. I can more then accept that as the case, I am just curious if it isn't, and I won't be replaying it, so here we are.

 

[Mr.Squishy]

Spoiler

hearing the Songbird screech in the original Bioshock blew my freakin' mind.

Wait, what?? When/where?