Bioware characters

[Frozengale]

So it's that time of the week again. When there are both Mass Effect 3 AND Dragon Age 2 threads running around on the front page, causing little bouts of nerd rage to pop up.

So I wanted to take this opportunity, since Bioware is fresh in everyone's minds, to not talk about the games per say but rather the characters within them. Now I've heard many people sling criticism Bioware games for many reasons, but one that seems to come up quite often is that the characters are "One-Note" basically two-dimensional characters that harp on one certain aspect of the world or one certain emotion. And from what I've seen, I generally do agree with this. So often it seems like the characters don't have much depth beyond a very small handful of emotions, and even smaller range of things that they'll talk about.

But despite all this there always seems to be a few characters that people just cling on to and say "THIS IS THE BEST CHARACTER EVER!" I found myself doing this with Merrill in Dragon Age 2. I found her to be complex and interesting with an array of dialogue that showed she was smarter then she seemed, and at times incredibly funny. But then I got to thinking, what if it's just that she pushes my particular set of buttons and she is as one-note and terrible as the other Bioware characters. Or are all Bioware characters as interesting as Merrill is to me but I just never noticed it?

So with that in mind I have a few questions for the forumites.

* Are Bioware Characters really that generic/flat/one-note/one dimensional? Or is that just a lazy complaint we nerd-ragers make?

* What are your favorite Bioware characters and why? And this is open to ALL Bioware games, even MDK2 if you want (thought not THEIR characters they more then likely did all the writing for them in game)

* Do you think your favorite character is actually complex and interesting? Or do you think they just appeal to you for other reasons.

 

[tippy2k2]

I don't think Bioware characters are one-note characters at all. They START as one-note characters and if you don't interact with them at all, they stay that way because all you see is their surface and nothing deeper than that. They start out a lot of times as stereotypes but break beyond that if you have them in your party and consistently interact with them. Some of them are better at being multi-dimensioned than others but there are few who are just one-dimension and that's all.

My favorite Bioware character is the very model of a scientist Salarian; Mordin. This goes into my original point; he starts out as a hyper active brainiac stereotype but through interaction, you learn more and more about who he is and what he does. He turns out to be kind of a bad-ass mother fucker. Then he sings and shows that he's a giant nerd again...then he...well...you know what he does in Mass Effect 3 and I will not spoil it here for the 3 people who haven't played it yet.

Most characters are like this in Bioware games; one-note on the surface until you get to know them...kind of like people in real life

 

[Terminate421]

Most characters are like this in Bioware games; one-note on the surface until you get to know them...kind of like people in real life

Though there is Garrus who is my personal favorite because no matter what scene goes on he relatively remains the same "biggest badass in the galaxy". Also they probably spend more time finding the best lines for him to say because I enjoy every line that comes out of his mouth.

 

[tippy2k2]

Most characters are like this in Bioware games; one-note on the surface until you get to know them...kind of like people in real life

Though there is Garrus who is my personal favorite because no matter what scene goes on he relatively remains the same "biggest badass in the galaxy". Also they probably spend more time finding the best lines for him to say because I enjoy every line that comes out of his mouth.

It was a strong internal debate to determine which character would win my bromance: Garrus or Mordin. Both went with me on my missions but Garrus won by default due to being playable in all three games. However, winning my love is easy and cheap; winning my favorite character award takes more than being a badass.

Mordin was my favorite character due to how different and diverse he was. Garrus was a bad-mother-shut-yo-mouth! but that was kind of all he was (not a bad thing of course). If Mordin didn't sing I think Garrus would have won the best character ever in Mass Effect but instead Garrus will have to take "most valuable party member" to Mordin's "favorite character ever" award.

...I rambled a lot there didn't I? And that was BEFORE I went and cut out a bunch of stuff because I thought I was rambling; you should see what I wrote here before I erased some stuff

 

[Mikejames]

I wouldn't defend every character, and I'm sure you can find some archetypes, but I think uncovering more about them and watching them develop has been where a lot of Bioware's writing has shined.

Mordin Solus stands out for me. I think the weight of the issues he has to go through are probably better established than any moral dilemma Shepard has to deal with. Also, he's bloody hilarious, despite his genuinely tragic moments.

I'll admit that Garrus and Tali had a special place on my roster as well, being some of the best for establishing a whole trilogy's worth of development. Notable with Tali going from being a codex on Quarians in ME1 to an actual character in ME2.

I don't think Bioware characters are one-note characters at all. They START as one-note characters and if you don't interact with them at all, they stay that way because all you see is their surface and nothing deeper than that. They start out a lot of times as stereotypes but break beyond that if you have them in your party and consistently interact with them. Some of them are better at being multi-dimensioned than others but there are few who are just one-dimension and that's all.

Well said. I'm now trying to recall how short ME2 would be if you didn't take the option to talk to anyone.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

I despise Merrill as a character. She's all manic shy super powerful "look at me aren't I socially awkward?" pap that pisses me off from a personality standpoint alone. But it is her actions that make me truly loathe her. She consorts with demons, insists they are okay, and gets her Keeper killed because she was a stupid little idiot who never owns up for her actions. The game tries to play her off as not being all there, being from a sheltered society and nervous around people, but I found her obsession with the mirror and her flagrant disregard for safety as proof enough. She isn't a cute little damsel. She's an irresponsible, spoiled little brat who never thinks about the consequences and only ever reflects after they get people she loves killed.

And even that doesn't change her behaviour one bit. She's still all gigglesquee airhead even after this. She learns nothing, she contributes nothing, and all her actions lead to is pain and suffering. But the game wants us to treat her like this poor lost sheep who needs to be nurtured. No, not Merrill, she doesn't deserve that kindness for the actions she takes.

Most characters are like this in Bioware games; one-note on the surface until you get to know them...kind of like people in real life

Or in the case of Knights of the Old Republic Characters: One note until Obsidian got their hands on them (Revan, HK-47, T3, Darkside Bastila, Canderous)

 

[AD-Stu]

Tend to agree that they to fall back on the standard tropes/archetypes a lot. But when they pull their fingers out they can still do some good work.

One of my favourites is probably Admiral Anderson from Mass Effect, even though he's not hugely involved in the second game and you only spend a few minutes face to face with him in the third. But I like how his relationship with the player character grows, how he doesn't automatically like all the choices the player makes that affect him (the one about being masde Councillor in particular, if you choose that - after seeing how much he hated the job in ME2, I went with Udina every other time) and the way that he doesn't necessarily tell you the whole truth about stuff (particularly in ME2, regarding his prior involvement with Saren). Plus he's voiced by Keith fracking David *grins*

 

[Tragedy's Rebellion]

...They kinda are. The thing with Bioware characters is that they are one-note, but singing that note to perfection. Well developed is a strong phrase, maybe above average is more fitting. Of course that isn't much of a compliment because most game characters aren't *characters* at all, just mindless puppets. In fact you are right about certain characters pushing your correct buttons, I've noticed it too. While I view Merrill as an immature nerd-wank fan service you interpret her as "THE BEST CHARACTER EVER!" just because the *quality* she exhibits is annoying to me, but it isn't to you. I'm kinda sleepy right now and can't think straight so you'll excuse me if I don't elaborate further.

 

[Frozengale]

I despise Merrill as a character. She's all manic shy super powerful "look at me aren't I socially awkward?" pap that pisses me off from a personality standpoint alone. But it is her actions that make me truly loathe her. She consorts with demons, insists they are okay, and gets her Keeper killed because she was a stupid little idiot who never owns up for her actions. The game tries to play her off as not being all there, being from a sheltered society and nervous around people, but I found her obsession with the mirror and her flagrant disregard for safety as proof enough. She isn't a cute little damsel. She's an irresponsible, spoiled little brat who never thinks about the consequences and only ever reflects after they get people she loves killed.

Hmm, I think you miss the whole point of Merrill. She didn't kill the Keeper, the Keeper decided to imprison the demon in herself because she thought Merrill would mess up. If you look at Merrill's storyline she never actually does anything to harm anyone else, they all harm themselves because they are scared of her. That one guy runs off into the monster because he's afraid of her, though she's never harmed him or the other Elves. The Keeper similarly is afraid she won't be able to control the Demon so becomes it. Even though she's proved she can handle demons before. The Elves turn on her because the Keeper did something stupid and so they try to kill her. She's never harmed anyone with her blood magic, people harm themselves because they are afraid of her blood magic.

I think it unfair to say "She never thinks of consequences" when the last part of her story mission proves otherwise. The whole reason you are there is because she is actually thinking of the consequences and wants you to kill her if it comes to it. Pretty sure she thought through that one entirely.

Though I can understand how some would be annoyed by her "shy socially awkward" persona.

 

[IllumInaTIma]

You can call any character flat and find some corresponding stereotype if you wish, that doesn't mean that character is bad by any means.
As for characters, Garrus is probably my favorite just because he's my bro, as simple as that.
What I really like about BioWare characters is that they know they characters don't exist in real world and they use it! Grunt-badass with the mind of teenager who suffers existential crisis! Awesome! Legion-AI who seeks to find his purpose in life and meaning of soul! Coool! EDI-another AI who falls in love with Joker and in the end they form some sort of symbiosis! Amazing! And yeah, I know that all those kind of character existed before, but still, the way they're done is still amazing!

 

[IamLEAM1983]

I'll agree in saying that BioWare usually writes up pretend-folk that start out feeling a bit one-dimensional. Nowhere is this more apparent than with James Vega, in ME3. I started with an overt dismissal of the character because, hey, those pecs. He's obviously a Space Dudebro, right?

Well, there's a little meat inside that head after all... I don't have to favour James, but I can appreciate what he brings to the table.

As far as I know, Hudson and Karpyshyn both tend to work with really basic tropes and then layer things onto them. In Mass Effect 2, you're introduced to Mordin as the signature Eccentric Professor. From then on, it's your choice as to whether or not you'll dig deeper or stick with "LOL, NERD!" jokes.

BioWare characters are just sort of - there. There for you to pick up and play with and potentially peel open in a way that will ideally be more fascinating than gruesome. Considering, whomever your Shep leaves behind in his or her social pursuits is more or less doomed to remain a one-dimensional punching bag and/or twat, while whoever it is you focus on is almost guaranteed to end up in your pants...

 

[skywolfblue]

* Are Bioware Characters really that generic/flat/one-note/one dimensional? Or is that just a lazy complaint we nerd-ragers make?

I'd say a lot of them are kinda simplistic. I mean, half the loyalty quests in Mass Effect 2 boiled down to "Daddy Issues". Perhaps it stems from having too tight a focus on finishing a character's arc in only one or two quests, vs being a central component of the entire game (Elizabeth from Bioshock Infinite or Trip from Enslaved for an example).

* What are your favorite Bioware characters and why? And this is open to ALL Bioware games, even MDK2 if you want (thought not THEIR characters they more then likely did all the writing for them in game)

Mordin, singing + fast talking nerd = win
Wrex, I liked how over the top he was, would put rambo to shame
Varric, I loved his storytelling, plus the wisecrack comments he makes

* Do you think your favorite character is actually complex and interesting? Or do you think they just appeal to you for other reasons.

The only one that I'd say is actually "complex" is Mordin (because of how the whole story of the genophage so heavily involves him).

A character does not need to be "complex" in order to be liked.

 

[Lunar Templar]

In all honesty, I couldn't tell you. Only bioware game to hold my attention was DA1, and by that I mean not just finished, but a good chunk of side stuff to. And I cant say I remember anything about the game, save a thing here or there. Nothing stayed with me past finishing it. I sank some time into ToR as well and remember as much about that as well.

So I'm going to go with they have a writing problem.

 

[Souplex]

I absolutely despised Merril.
She was like if you took the already annoying, uninteresting character of Tali and made her so very dumb.
There were 2 good characters in Dragon Age: 2: Varric, and Avaline. You couldn't put the moves on either of them, yet you could put the moves on Fenris and Merril? Lunacy!

The best Bioware characters ever: 1. Legion. 2. Tie between Wrex/Mordin. 3. Shale.

 

[putowtin]

Most characters are like this in Bioware games; one-note on the surface until you get to know them...kind of like people in real life

Though there is Garrus who is my personal favorite because no matter what scene goes on he relatively remains the same "biggest badass in the galaxy". Also they probably spend more time finding the best lines for him to say because I enjoy every line that comes out of his mouth.

It was a strong internal debate to determine which character would win my bromance: Garrus or Mordin. Both went with me on my missions but Garrus won by default due to being playable in all three games. However, winning my love is easy and cheap; winning my favorite character award takes more than being a badass.

Mordin was my favorite character due to how different and diverse he was. Garrus was a bad-mother-shut-yo-mouth! but that was kind of all he was (not a bad thing of course).

What you say is true; Garrus is "bad mother-shut you mouth" and not much more if you play as male Shep. Play as female Shep and you see a different side to him, his insecurities and doubts. Also his dossier in the Shadow Broker's lair adds more. His love for his family and the risks he took sending Collector tissue to a science facility in the hope that they could save his ailing mother. These character developments are what changed him in my eyes from, "cool squad member" to "the only person in the galaxy for Amanda Shepard"

 

[LetalisK]

Bioware confuses me more than anything. They sometimes have really good characters and arcs with them and other times they completely drop the ball. I think this is most evident with the Liara and Ashley romances. In ME1, Ashley is a very engaging character with an interesting romance and Liara is a snore-fest. I'm leaving ME2 out of this one because they both didn't get time, with an exception of DLC where Liara was good. Then comes ME3 where Liara now feels like a character that isn't a robot and is actually interesting with some emotional depth and Ashley becomes a very unrewarding and boring love interest, even after the hospital. Actually, especially after the hospital.

Wrex and Mordin are total badasses though. In DA:O/Awakening, I always liked Allister(as a character, sometimes he annoyed me), Oghren, and Anders. Haven't played DA2, so can't comment on that.

 

[Delerien]

In my opinion Bioware really knows how to write characters. Jack in ME2 and Merill in DA2 annoyed the shit out of me, and i still haven't figured out why Wrex suddenly thinks we're friends. But they are good characters, it's only natural to not get along with everyone. They do however have their own motives and storys to tell.

 

[bug_of_war]

* Are Bioware Characters really that generic/flat/one-note/one dimensional? Or is that just a lazy complaint we nerd-ragers make?

Yes to a degree, however this is not bad. Most people in the world we live in are one note, so it makes sense that you'd find one note characters. The difference is whether or not that 1 note character has any development, and in this area I feel as though Bioware hit the nail on the head in regards to Mass Effect and Dragon Age.

I find it mildly annoying when someone simply says, "The characters were generic/one note/cliché" I just find that these things should not instantly mean boring or bad. Clichés can be good, same with generic and one note, it all depends on whether or not the character plays the role well. For example, Defiance (that new Sci Fi show) has many a cliché in it's plot. The main characters have been seen and done before but the universe they live in and their interactions make them interesting. With one glance yes they are generic, but through further observation they become more and more interesting.

* What are your favorite Bioware characters and why? And this is open to ALL Bioware games, even MDK2 if you want (thought not THEIR characters they more then likely did all the writing for them in game)

Dragon Age: Sten, Morrigan, Fenris.

I enjoyed Sten because he was interesting. His devotion to the Qun and background as being a soldier was interesting. I enjoyed how he interacted with the world, I enjoyed his blunt no nonsense attitude and his personal quest was quite interesting because it was almost as if you were re-attaching a lost limb.

Morrigan was interesting in the sense that her personality just clicked with mine. She wasn't about to follow every rule or order someone has imposed, but at the same time she wont go out of her way to be an asshole. Her backstory is interesting, her personal quest is quite tough but rewarding, and she is one of the few, "more than one note" characters.

Fenris was the only companion in DA2 that I really thought was most level headed. While he openly doesn't like Mages (and for good reason) he still follows Hawke even though he works with Mages. His anger is justifiable, his abilities are cool and following his personal quest is quite enlightening. He is the one character who has an opinion on the Mages and Templars that seems most realistic. He understands their power and danger but only kills those that have shown to be blood mages/hostile towards innocent people.

Mass Effect: Wrex, Grunt, Legion, James.

Wrex is the generic, "Soldier whom has lost hope" and it works perfectly. In the first game he has no hope for his people due to the genophage and his peoples tendencies to sell themselves as mercs/willingness to stab each other in the back. He's old, he's experienced, he's tough and he knows what's what. Then after the events of the first game he becomes inspired to save his people. He goes back to his home planet and dedicates himself to pulling his species out of the predicament they're in. By the third game everything starts coming together, and his character literally has the best reason NOT to join your squad. He has a species to rally and command, unlike Samara whom just doesn't join your team cause...I dunno.

Grunt was a typical beserk soldier, and while he remained 1 note throughout the whole series, it was a good note. His fire is inspiring, his ferocity is intimidating and the fact that by ME3 he fights his way bare handed through Rachnai after having lost his team tells me this is one tough son of a ***** whom has more than earned his place.

I enjoyed Legion for two reasons. Tali hated him, and he was actually one of the most level headed characters in the entire game. Everything that he does generally has good reasoning, and unlike Tali he does not annoy the hell out of me. His final moments were some of the best in Mass Effect 3, especially seeing as how he is basically the Jesus of his species.

James was a little odd at first. I thought he was just a jersey douchebag, but over time I got to understand his character. His bravado and rick taking was a side effect of all the crap he has done and seen whilst serving in the military.

* Do you think your favorite character is actually complex and interesting? Or do you think they just appeal to you for other reasons.

Sten, no. Morrigan, yes. Fenris, yes. Wrex, no. Grunt, no. Legion, yes. James, to a degree. Most of these characters appeal to me not because they are or are not complex, but because their personalities/actions are interesting to me and I tend to see fragments of my own personality/reasoning in some of these characters and am able to relate to them in a way.

 

[AwesomeWunderbar]

The Black Whirlwind from Jade Empire. I love the game and he was one of my favorite characters. At first he's seems to be nothing more than a killing machine who loves wine, but then as you take him along and learn more about him he becomes a fairly deep character.