Bioware Has Sequel Issues: ME 2 and DA 2

[TheAmazingTGIF]

I recently finished Dragon Age 2 for the second time, and I came across an issue. I thought about this issue for a little while and why it bothered me so much. Then I realized what it was, it was the same issue I had with ME 2.

Spoilers for both games of each series. You've been warned.

Bioware's sequels don't have good villains.
Dragon Age: Origins had a clear villain, so did Mass Effect. The entire game you basically can shake your fist and curse at Loghain or Saren and when they are defeated you can basically assume that the Big Bag (i.e. the archdemon, Sovreign) is defeated. These villains had faces, they were actively screwing with the main character. You spent the entire game waiting to take them down and enjoying it when you finally got there.
The sequels however... Sigh... Mass Effect 2, you spend the entire game tracking down the mysterious Collectors. The whole point of the game is that you don't know who they are, but you have been told that they are sooo evil and must be destroyed. Unlike the first one where you see Saren killin dudes and trying to blow you up. The Collector's had no face, you couldn't shake your fist at them and be angry at them. For all you knew, they were trying to gather pretty flowers. Dragon Age 2 has the exact same issue. The arishok starts off as an actual villain. We see him, he is weird and angry, and it is clear that there are going to be issues. Then all of a sudden, the guy there have been issues with through acts 1 and 2 gets killed and replaced with two people that you literally have not seen until the absolute end of the second act. And yet I can see that the issues with Meredith and Orsino and the mages was supposed to be the main storyline. So why did we not see any of this before hand?

Long rant over.

I hope ME3 and DA3 have better villains. It isn't fun killing the small people unless the big guy is a guy you actually want to be killing.
Thoughts?

 

[Phlakes]

Unlike the first one where you see Saren killin dudes and trying to blow you up. The Collector's had no face, you couldn't shake your fist at them and be angry at them. For all you knew, they were trying to gather pretty flowers.

Um, except for the fact that they killed Shepard, destroyed the Normandy, and completely wiped out dozens of human colonies.

And then captured the second Normandy's crew, but whatever.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Unlike the first one where you see Saren killin dudes and trying to blow you up. The Collector's had no face, you couldn't shake your fist at them and be angry at them. For all you knew, they were trying to gather pretty flowers.

Um, except for the fact that they killed Shepard, destroyed the Normandy, and completely wiped out dozens of human colonies.

And then captured the second Normandy's crew, but whatever.

This.

The Collectors are scary. They're scary because they're mysterious and powerful and hardly on screen at all.

 

[TheAmazingTGIF]

Unlike the first one where you see Saren killin dudes and trying to blow you up. The Collector's had no face, you couldn't shake your fist at them and be angry at them. For all you knew, they were trying to gather pretty flowers.

Um, except for the fact that they killed Shepard, destroyed the Normandy, and completely wiped out dozens of human colonies.

And then captured the second Normandy's crew, but whatever.

Granted, ME2 did a better job. However, the collectors were still just a bunch grunts that could very easily be replaced with the LOKI mechs and you wouldn't loose a single thing.

 

[Tanfastic]

I must've missed the the collectors being not seen at all when I turned every corner and heard "THIS HURTS YOU!" by one of them being controlled by the big baddie...

Throughout all of Act 1 and 2 of DA2 there are heavy mage vs. templar quests, most have major tie ins with the last act (even the idol at the end of the first act has a direct tie in to the last boss.)

 

[TheAmazingTGIF]

Unlike the first one where you see Saren killin dudes and trying to blow you up. The Collector's had no face, you couldn't shake your fist at them and be angry at them. For all you knew, they were trying to gather pretty flowers.

Um, except for the fact that they killed Shepard, destroyed the Normandy, and completely wiped out dozens of human colonies.

And then captured the second Normandy's crew, but whatever.

This.

The Collectors are scary. They're scary because they're mysterious and powerful and hardly on screen at all.

See Heroes season 1, specifically the first half. You never see Sylar's face. He is some unknowable, unseen face that goes around and kills a shit ton of people with bizarre powers. You have no idea who he is, but you know that he can be anyone. The Collectors on the specifically one group, you know who they are, you may not know when they are coming, but you know who they are more or less. Being off screen can be super effective for a villain, but if it isn't done right than your villain has no character.

 

[Irridium]

Yeah, the lack of a solid... antagonist I guess is the right word, really hurt DA2 and ME2. I really hope this changes for future titles.

With Saren, he was there to oppose you every step of the way. And in the end, you understood why he did what he did, you know why he did it, and you basically come to understand him. As a result, he is a damn good antagonist.

The collectors are just your standard bland, evil race of evil bug-like aliens. Yeah there was Harbinger, but every time the collectors are around, you end up schooling him about a dozen times, which completely removes all sense of fear and danger he's supposed to have. That, and his constant taunts being said OVER AND OVER got really old, really fast.


I mean yeah, ME1 had a generic robot army that only started getting interesting in ME2, but Saren made them seem more interesting then they actually were. The Collecters are just bleh.

I blame The Old Republic for sucking up all of Bioware's best writers. Which means The Old Republic should have damn amazing characters. Hopefully.

 

[Zantos]

I think you're pretty much on the dot for ME2, the collectors were a bit of a faceless featureless enemy. Hopefully we'll get to see Harbinger in person in ME3. And he'll look exactly like Christopher Lee or Sir Ian McKellen. Wouldn't it be great if all the reapers were voiced by British Shakespearian actors?

Actually a few games have been doing this recently. Fable had a fantastic villain but in 2 and 3 it's like they phoned in sick.

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

I still haven't finished DA2. And I have ENDLESS free time. Act 3 is so boring...I've been doing pro-mage actions for 2 acts...I saw this coming, god.

 

[GiantRaven]

If it weren't for ME2 and DA2, I'd say Bioware were almost completely incapable of telling different story to the one they tell in every game they ever make.

 

[Irridium]

I think you're pretty much on the dot for ME2, the collectors were a bit of a faceless featureless enemy. Hopefully we'll get to see Harbinger in person in ME3. And he'll look exactly like Christopher Lee or Sir Ian McKellen. Wouldn't it be great if all the reapers were voiced by British Shakespearian actors?

Actually a few games have been doing this recently. Fable had a fantastic villain but in 2 and 3 it's like they phoned in sick.

Fable 3 had a good thing going for it, with your brother's motives being more than "I am a dick, OBEY ME!"

But Lionhead being Lionhead, cocked it up...

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

I think no one at Bioware wants to take the time to write villain monologues anymore.

 

[Irridium]

As something of a Bioware fanboy I am still forced to agree with you. Both sequels had enemies but there was no clear, individual leader enemy that I was fighting against.

But I believe that this is partially due to "Middle child" syndrome. ME2 is definitely the 2nd in a trilogy and I wouldn't be surprised if DA turned into a trilogy (i mean there's definitely a sequel, but who knows if that will be it)

It follows tried and true story telling arcs -

1st part is where they meet the enemy and defeat them, only to find that he is a small fish in a big pond and now you see the TRUE enemy.

2nd part is realizing you're not strong enough alone, so you gather your party.

3rd part is the showdown, what you've been preparing for and fearing since part 1.

DA2 stumbles a bit on part 2, rather than doing anything useful its pretty much just trying to distract you until they can roll out part 3, but the general feel remains the same.

Not sure if rambling but tl;dr I agree with OP. I hope ME3 has an enemy with a face.

But thats basically every Bioware game, more or less.

1st part is finding your enemy, 2nd part is gathering party members(after getting accepted into a special order), and then fighting the big bad guy. Not saying its bad, Bioware does this style well, but seeing ME1 and 2 both follow this setup, and ME3 will seem to also be this setup, it just seems... odd.

 

[TheAmazingTGIF]

As something of a Bioware fanboy I am still forced to agree with you. Both sequels had enemies but there was no clear, individual leader enemy that I was fighting against.

But I believe that this is partially due to "Middle child" syndrome. ME2 is definitely the 2nd in a trilogy and I wouldn't be surprised if DA turned into a trilogy (i mean there's definitely a sequel, but who knows if that will be it)

It follows tried and true story telling arcs -

1st part is where they meet the enemy and defeat them, only to find that he is a small fish in a big pond and now you see the TRUE enemy.

2nd part is realizing you're not strong enough alone, so you gather your party.

3rd part is the showdown, what you've been preparing for and fearing since part 1.

DA2 stumbles a bit on part 2, rather than doing anything useful its pretty much just trying to distract you until they can roll out part 3, but the general feel remains the same.

Not sure if rambling but tl;dr I agree with OP. I hope ME3 has an enemy with a face.

It is so true. But this doesn't really hold up for DA2 I feel. This is because the only real connection it has with the first game is a few threads that connect them (Anders, Isabela [sort of], Merrill [sort of], the world it is set in). So I wouldn't really call it the middle child really. A cousin, maybe.

 

[Hosker]

I think ME2 is more character driven. It works in my opinion. Dragon Age 2, not so much. It could have done with something arching over and connecting the three stages, in which a good villain could have worked.

 

[AlternatePFG]

Well, the only reason the Collectors even seem like a threat to Shepard in ME2 is because you keep on being screwed over by the Illusive Man by sending you into either obvious traps or not telling you the whole story. Sure, they're kidnapping colonies left and right, but after the opening scene where they kill Shepard they just seem like generic mooks. I mean, the Geth and Saren were actually a threat a ME1, they nearly destroyed the Citadel. What did the Collectors do at the end of the game? Build a giant, stupid robot ... thing.

DA2's mage vs. templar thing was novel at first, but by Act 3 I just had enough of it. Seriously, Anders constantly reminds you of the "war" between mages and templars, and you can't simply say both sides are idiots. I do agree Meridith and Orsino came out of nowhere, especially Orsino, I mean Meredith was at least mentioned. And you still fight them both in Act 3 anyway, so matter which side you choose it matters little.

Edit: I also forgot to mention Loghain from Dragon Age: Origins. I thought he was a damn good villian, mostly because you actually get an idea of who he is before you actually confront him. Seriously, Saren and Loghain were both great, and the villians in the sequels were just bad. The Arishok was okay I guess, but he should have been the final boss.

 

[badgersprite]

Unlike the first one where you see Saren killin dudes and trying to blow you up. The Collector's had no face, you couldn't shake your fist at them and be angry at them. For all you knew, they were trying to gather pretty flowers.

Um, except for the fact that they killed Shepard, destroyed the Normandy, and completely wiped out dozens of human colonies.

And then captured the second Normandy's crew, but whatever.

Granted, ME2 did a better job. However, the collectors were still just a bunch grunts that could very easily be replaced with the LOKI mechs and you wouldn't loose a single thing.

This isn't a Bioware thing. It's a second-sequel-in-a-trilogy thing. The idea is that you can back off on the villains, because the midpoint of the trilogy is where you really need to focus on your characters, developing them, explaining things that weren't explained in the first part, and set up for the real confrontation in the third act. You can see that this was the plan in ME2 - that game was all about the protagonists and your team, so you had lots of minor villains and minor stories going on to develop the characters, and a more tertiary enemy force that really just had the role of setting up the final act.

I'm not saying they couldn't have done better, but I'm kind of willing to give them some slack. Second sequels in a trilogy are always going to leave things feeling unfinished and meander a bit. You can't bring out Emperor Palpatine in The Empire Strikes Back, and likewise you can't bring out the main villain until ME3. Blowing up the Death Star every single movie would have been boring as hell. Even The Lord of The Rings does this.

DA2 really does the same thing, focusing on main characters instead of on villains, but in this case it was really to its detriment story wise because it kind of had no plot. It had three important subplots but no main villains = no real plot. I'm still in the "DA2 is not a bad game, it's just not excellent" camp. But I will agree that the lack of a clear villain was the worst aspect of the game and singularly detracted from everything it was trying to be.

But, yeah, this is far from something that's exclusive to Bioware. It's just kind of how things work. First part establishes characters and villains. Second part follows main characters in different circumstances, develops them beyond initial characteristics. Third part resolves conflict and completes characters' journeys. That's just story structure.

 

[RatRace123]

For the most part I agree, especially in regards to Mass Effect.
Saren is a way better antagonist than, I guess Harbinger takes his place in 2.

The lack of villain didn't really bother me in DA2, as I felt the story was sort of a different thing. It didn't bother me as much as ME2 anyway.

 

[Zantos]

I think you're pretty much on the dot for ME2, the collectors were a bit of a faceless featureless enemy. Hopefully we'll get to see Harbinger in person in ME3. And he'll look exactly like Christopher Lee or Sir Ian McKellen. Wouldn't it be great if all the reapers were voiced by British Shakespearian actors?

Actually a few games have been doing this recently. Fable had a fantastic villain but in 2 and 3 it's like they phoned in sick.

Fable 3 had a good thing going for it, with your brother's motives being more than "I am a dick, OBEY ME!"

But Lionhead being Lionhead, cocked it up...

How I imagine conversations at Lionhead studios.

LH Worker - "Peter, there's only a month until release, shall we go onto putting in the gripping plot with deep and enjoyable characters?"
Peter Molyneux - "No you fools! You will keep working on the relationships and marriage system until they are both perfect! People WILL care about marrying the NPCs!"

They couldn't even be bothered to keep Scythe in. And what about if you became Jack of Blades? Surely he'd still be around! And wasn't there an option to kill Theresa? I didn't do it the first time but I'm seriously considering it after her little "Congratulations on saving the world! Now I'm bagsying this tower so fuck off." business in 2. They didn't think that through at all.

I think no one at Bioware wants to take the time to write villain monologues anymore.

That's probably the most reasonable explanation I've ever heard on the matter. That explains why Sovereign was well scripted for that one conversation you have with him whereas Harbinger only had about 4 lines.