Bioware Has Sequel Issues: ME 2 and DA 2
- Thread starter TheAmazingTGIF
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I think a part of the proplem is that people take dragon age 2 as a sequel when if you cosider the story was propable suposed to be a standalone game set in the world of dragon age origins. And the fault lies witj russhing on bioweres/eas part wich you can clearle see from how they reuse the sam dungeon way to often and also it had 2 in its name and i can agree with that they should have intruduced orsino and meredith soner so youd see soner the big picture with the templar vs mages. plus overall i think da2 was more of a sword and sorcere story with focus on the caracters rather than the classic biowere high fantasy aproche of saving the world in somwe way and ithink they did it peete good exept for it could have used a litel more polish
sorry about bad english its not my native languige
sorry about bad english its not my native languige
Haven't played Dragon Age(s), but I agree on the Mass Effect issue.
I'm interested in characters with purpose, history, and character. Saren fulfilled all three of those quotas. The collectors were too anonymous for me; I didn't understand what they were, where they were from, or why they wanted to destroy me, or everything, or whatever it was they wanted to destroy.
Saren on the other hand, you could think about as you ran to the Council Chambers--why was he doing this, what did he mean by what he said? And then the moral choices at the end--you could make Saren a tragic victim of power, who (spoiler). Or you could make him simply strengthen his resolve and fight him.
...short of it, I enjoyed Saren as a character. The collectors had no character. They're dull. They're boring. They're flat. They're assuming no control of my heart strings whatsoever.
I'm interested in characters with purpose, history, and character. Saren fulfilled all three of those quotas. The collectors were too anonymous for me; I didn't understand what they were, where they were from, or why they wanted to destroy me, or everything, or whatever it was they wanted to destroy.
Saren on the other hand, you could think about as you ran to the Council Chambers--why was he doing this, what did he mean by what he said? And then the moral choices at the end--you could make Saren a tragic victim of power, who (spoiler). Or you could make him simply strengthen his resolve and fight him.
...short of it, I enjoyed Saren as a character. The collectors had no character. They're dull. They're boring. They're flat. They're assuming no control of my heart strings whatsoever.
I enjoyed the plots in ME2 and DA2 precisely because they didn't capitulate to the typical "paint by numbers" cliches you find in most RPGs.
That's not to say the methods for telling these stories was ideal. Far from it...
That's not to say the methods for telling these stories was ideal. Far from it...
My issue with Dragon Age 2 is that it didn't go far enough in this direction. BioWare still wanted to present the player with an Epic Sweeping RPG crafted through Their Choice. But BioWare also wanted to tell a specific story with a specific ending, a sequel hook. That means the player can't matter all that much at the end of the game. And though Hawke didn't have a specific quest he/she was continually handed one to further this.J03bot said:
I think there could have been an even deeper connection with Kirkwall and the player group if BioWare simply dropped the pretense of being the "Champion" or even someone really important. Hawke can be a minor noble and then make the story about your group. Not just the existing quests involving their personal lives but having everyone dealing with things in reaction to the events in Kirkwall spiralling beyond anybody's ability to control. Give me more about the increasing pressure on Aveline having to not only satisfy her own desire to protect Kirkwall but also play a political game with the Templars and the Guard's overseers. Give me more about the increasing suspicion on the alienage elves due to their (perceived) greater aptitude for magic and how this not only effects Merrill directly due to her own magic (and blood magic at that) but also conflicts with her desire to help her people (at the increased risk of being found out). Give me more conflict about Isabela being a pirate in a town protected by Aveline, not just snappy banter when those two are in the same party. Problems with Fenris squatting in Hightown. Problems with Templars or anti-mage mobs harrassing Anders' clinic.
If I sat to think about it, and someone paid me, I could probably come up with pages and pages of conflicts and moral quandries that could adversely affect your party (beyond banter in dialogue sections) that would have been more interesting to experience than a lot of the side quests were and ultimately mostly meaningless main quests turned out to be.
As the game stands now the end of Dragon Age 2 should have been the middle of Dragon Age 2. With no end goal beyond setting up a sequel the player simply couldn't factor into the main story as much as BioWare presented they would. So instead of making the choice about the story, they should have made the choice about Hawke and the immediate world surrounding him/her.
Did you play a different Mass Effect 2 than me? Because I pretty sharply remember The Collectors doing things like abducting entire human populations and then melting them into goo.TheAmazingTGIF said:
In one instance this happens while you are present.
In another instance this is done to your own ship's crew.
This is kind of a far cry from "only being told they're evil without proof" and "picking pretty flowers".
I missed the vehicle sections too.. the Mako wasn't the problem for me... the planets weren't the problem for me... but the same buildings or mines over & over & over & over & over & over & over again... those were the problems... I actually kinda liked the Mako although vehicle controls were kinda weird sometimes...PatSilverFox said:
Here's how your argument works:
Yes for Dragon Age 2, no for Mass Effect 2.
So, you're half right, basically.
Yes for Dragon Age 2, no for Mass Effect 2.
So, you're half right, basically.
Kinda agreed? I mean yea, the collectors didn't have much of a personality, but that was kinda the point, the reapers stole their identity, culture, everything that made them an actual people, and turned them into a mindless army. And hell, I consider The Illusive Man to be almost as much of a villain as the damned reapers. He's constantly lying to you, seemingly trying to get you killed, etc. Hell, to REALLY get an idea for what kind of a person TIM is, you kinda need to get the "Worst" ending, where Shephard dies. He basically says "His loss is acceptable, now bring me back my ship, Joker".
I can't wait to kick his ass come ME3.
Not gonna comment on DA2, as I really just don't know how I feel about that game. I liked a lot of what it did, and disliked just as much. Definitely liked ME2 over ME, is just about every way. Suppose I liked Origins more than DA2, but at the same time, I only ever beat Origins once, and I've beaten DA2 twice, and I feel like there may be a third time soon. Really just don't know what to think about it.
I can't wait to kick his ass come ME3.
Not gonna comment on DA2, as I really just don't know how I feel about that game. I liked a lot of what it did, and disliked just as much. Definitely liked ME2 over ME, is just about every way. Suppose I liked Origins more than DA2, but at the same time, I only ever beat Origins once, and I've beaten DA2 twice, and I feel like there may be a third time soon. Really just don't know what to think about it.
Couldn't disagree more. I loved both games. And, in many ways, I felt both games improved upon the originals spectacularly. No more Mako, better moral choices, better take on character introspection, got rid of that god-awful inventory system from ME1, etc.
They both had their flaws. I.E., I really wish that DA2 didn't have rinse/repeat dungeons and landscapes. And I thought it was really lame that Laidlaw said "Well, you could have gotten crappy repetitive environments, or crappy repetitive story and quests. We made the right decision" Really? How about a longer development cycle?!
That said, I still have a special place in my heart for both games, and I think they both accomplished what they set out to do very, very well.
They both had their flaws. I.E., I really wish that DA2 didn't have rinse/repeat dungeons and landscapes. And I thought it was really lame that Laidlaw said "Well, you could have gotten crappy repetitive environments, or crappy repetitive story and quests. We made the right decision" Really? How about a longer development cycle?!
That said, I still have a special place in my heart for both games, and I think they both accomplished what they set out to do very, very well.
Uhh...? Not every game has to be the same. If each game had a malevolent villain whose name started with an S and sounded incredibly sinister, we'd get tired of if eventually. Saren having a face was essential to inching the player into the story while throwing boatloads of lore for them to absorb. However, part 2 didn't need to stuff you full of lore for you to understand anything, so this time they could get away with demonstrating the character of the enemy through actions and visuals as opposed to sinister laughing and mustache twirling. The collectors being relatively soulless and incredibly dangerous established more about the Reapers than the first game with atmosphere alone. They are cold, methodical, and damned hard to kill.
That Saren was a better villain? Agreed. 100%TheAmazingTGIF said:
That ME2 was a worse game? No, not really.
ME2 really shined, in my opinion, in its secondary events. Fleshing out the Geth, the whole character and backstory of Mordin, weaving a larger philosophical conflict (mostly ends justifying the means type things, but also more about humanity's maverick role in galactic society and whether that's good or bad.)
I really think ME2 made the mass effect universe much more compelling.
DA2 did indeed fall flat. I think it had a shitton of potential, but it squandered the huge interconnected story it built on a magic macguffin. I mean, the amount of stuff from Act I that carried through the whole story was incredible. Almost every side quest contributed to the overall story, which was amazing. It's just, the overall story, which in abstract sounds good, was poorly executed.
RhombusHatesYou said:
Seriously, I understand that I'm the "Champion of Kirkwall", but since when does that entail I have to deal with political squabbles? " Oh thanks for saving us, by the way could you solve every single problem in the city? Maybe make a nice political decision for us all too? KTHX!"
What was up with DA2 spanning 10 years? It certainly didn't feel like it at any point in the game. The only moments I'd realize that a few years had gone by would be when the characters blatantly referred to it. No one remotely aged in that time, Kirkwall didn't change in appearance and it seemed like Hawke just kind of sat in limbo during those years until he was a playable character again.
I've only played through DA2 once as a two handed warrior and I chose to side with the mages at the end. As sad as it is to say, one of the two biggest reasons I did it was because I wanted to keep Anders as my healer. If I had to play a second time around, I would certainly side with the templars to get a different perspective but when the end is ultimately the same, what's the point?
I've only played through DA2 once as a two handed warrior and I chose to side with the mages at the end. As sad as it is to say, one of the two biggest reasons I did it was because I wanted to keep Anders as my healer. If I had to play a second time around, I would certainly side with the templars to get a different perspective but when the end is ultimately the same, what's the point?
You opinion matters less than mine for the obvious reason(it's internet after all). ME2 and DA2 are improved versions of the originals,if you like that or not nobody cares really. There are people that loved them and that's what Bioware cares about.
Thing is there are so many game companies that make those kind of games you like why can't you let Bioware(for same reason Bethesda) make games that people like me(whatever that means)love to play?
Thing is there are so many game companies that make those kind of games you like why can't you let Bioware(for same reason Bethesda) make games that people like me(whatever that means)love to play?
Meh.
I agree with DA2. But that game's narrative was all over the place anyway.
ME2 not so much. The collectors were present and visible right from the start. Hell, as someone else pointed out, the very first thing that happens is you getting killed by them. That's about as dramatic an entrance as you're ever going to get. Also, Harbinger in particular makes numerous appearances with that possession shenanigans.
Also, for the record I think ME1 and DA1 both had weak villains. They both appear briefly at the beginning then vanish for the vast majority of their respective plots. Then they turn up again just in time to get curb-stomped before you move on to the real threat. And I found both of them rather boring and one-note up until their final entrances.
At least Saren had slightly more complex motivations than Loghain.
I agree with DA2. But that game's narrative was all over the place anyway.
ME2 not so much. The collectors were present and visible right from the start. Hell, as someone else pointed out, the very first thing that happens is you getting killed by them. That's about as dramatic an entrance as you're ever going to get. Also, Harbinger in particular makes numerous appearances with that possession shenanigans.
Also, for the record I think ME1 and DA1 both had weak villains. They both appear briefly at the beginning then vanish for the vast majority of their respective plots. Then they turn up again just in time to get curb-stomped before you move on to the real threat. And I found both of them rather boring and one-note up until their final entrances.
At least Saren had slightly more complex motivations than Loghain.
I feel that the collectors were only a threat because they had the tech 1-up before Sovereign was reverse-engineered. Without the omega-4 relay, and the technological advantage, the collectors were barely autonomous. As for the last boss, he was unfinished you know... its no surprise it was that week, its like the second deathstar without the force-field... potentially dangerous, but not if your careful.
I eagerly await ME3
I eagerly await ME3