Bioware Has Sequel Issues: ME 2 and DA 2

[Still Life]

tupid robot ... thing.

Mac Walters confirmed it as a Reaper 'core', and that 'cuttlefish' like appearance is the shell/body of a Reaper.

I think the issue people seem to have is that the Collectors aren't something people can easily relate to; they are essentially drones who are simply doing their master's bidding. I think Bioware took this route so that they could build up the other important characters and story arcs which, according to Casey Hudson, will be resolved in the conclusion, replete with varying endings which are determined by the player-nuanced choices made throughout the series.

It's essentially a case of middle chapter blues.

 

[Vault101]

ME2 was awsome....I dont care what anyone says

 

[Trolldor]

I recently finished Dragon Age 2 for the second time, and I came across an issue. I thought about this issue for a little while and why it bothered me so much. Then I realized what it was, it was the same issue I had with ME 2.

Spoilers for both games of each series. You've been warned.

Bioware's sequels don't have good villains.
Dragon Age: Origins had a clear villain, so did Mass Effect. The entire game you basically can shake your fist and curse at Loghain or Saren and when they are defeated you can basically assume that the Big Bag (i.e. the archdemon, Sovreign) is defeated. These villains had faces, they were actively screwing with the main character. You spent the entire game waiting to take them down and enjoying it when you finally got there.
The sequels however... Sigh... Mass Effect 2, you spend the entire game tracking down the mysterious Collectors. The whole point of the game is that you don't know who they are, but you have been told that they are sooo evil and must be destroyed. Unlike the first one where you see Saren killin dudes and trying to blow you up. The Collector's had no face, you couldn't shake your fist at them and be angry at them. For all you knew, they were trying to gather pretty flowers. Dragon Age 2 has the exact same issue. The arishok starts off as an actual villain. We see him, he is weird and angry, and it is clear that there are going to be issues. Then all of a sudden, the guy there have been issues with through acts 1 and 2 gets killed and replaced with two people that you literally have not seen until the absolute end of the second act. And yet I can see that the issues with Meredith and Orsino and the mages was supposed to be the main storyline. So why did we not see any of this before hand?

Long rant over.

I hope ME3 and DA3 have better villains. It isn't fun killing the small people unless the big guy is a guy you actually want to be killing.
Thoughts?

The problem with both sequels is the writing, not the base.

The base of a mysterious evil/conflict is not new, the delivery is just shit.

 

[A Curious Fellow]

Shit yeah they do. If you recall, they didn't even make KOTOR 2.

 

[Shoggoth2588]

Mass Effect 3 will have an army of Reapers.

Dragon Age 3...I would assume the God-Child your Warden could have had with Morrigan would be the best candidate for the main baddie. I mean, how could a God-Child raised by a witch with the soul of an Archdemon and, the added genetics of your gray warden would be on hell of a formidable opponent.

Shit yeah they do. If you recall, they didn't even make KOTOR 2.

Darth's Sion, Nihilus and, Treya were your main adversaries. Not so much the later but that trio was what you had to deal with in KotOR 2. Too bad they didn't have that HK factory though.

Also, back onto Mass Effect 3: Is Drew Karpyshyn still lead writer? Or rather, was he (as I assume the narrative portion of that game's development is long finished). If so than I'm sure he was saving the best for part three (and if not the best, a finale that will be bigger than that of 2)

 

[Trolldor]

How hard is if for people to realize that ME2 wasn't supposed to have a main baddie.

Excuse me?

Yes there was supposed to be a 'main baddie'. Harbringer and the collectors.

If there was no 'main baddie' then there was no point and no motivation. You're just mindlessly shooting things that aren't any real threat.

 

[Diablo27]

I don't think OP understands that it's a series. If you paid attention to the end of Dragon Age II you'll realise that the Seeker was trying to find the Champion to aid in "something" and this something is very important.

 

[CMDDarkblade]

Dragon Age: Origins didn't just have the Archdemon and Loghain as villians. It also had two important side villains depending on your origin story: Prince Bhelen (Dwarf noble) and Arl Howe (Human noble) and Bioware did a great job of making you hate both of them. I mean Arl Howe kills your family and is the brains behind most of Loghain's evil plans. With Meredith and Orsino you're inclined to think they're both just crazy idiots and take neither side and let them kill themselves. Hell, Anders was more of a villain than them and there is at least a rational justification to kill him, but I don't think party members count as villains just bad anti-heroes. Although I did like Flemeth in DA:2, I wish she had a greater role in that game.

 

[Frosted89]

I don't think OP understands that it's a series. If you paid attention to the end of Dragon Age II you'll realise that the Seeker was trying to find the Champion to aid in "something" and this something is very important.

I believe that's the main problem with Dragon Age 2, the whole game feels like a prologue to a much more interesting and epic story. Not an introduction like Mass Effect 1 or a New Hope for the Star Wars trilogy but a prologue, something that just gives bits of information before the main story begins.

I still liked Dragon Age 2 despite all of it's flaws, but it was no where near a quality game that I'd expect to see from Bioware, it seems more like something Lionhead Studios would cook up.

As for Mass Effect 2, in my opinion the game is solid, the Collectors may not be the greatest villains but they do serve a purpose in the story, investigating what the Collectors are and their motives, gives us new insight on the Reapers as to why they commit these acts of genocide and what uses they make of the races that are harvested after each cycle. Maybe it wasn't the best route to take the story, but I am satisfied with Mass Effect 2 as a whole and am looking forward to the conclusion.

 

[Nikolaz72]

Yeah, the lack of a solid... antagonist I guess is the right word, really hurt DA2 and ME2. I really hope this changes for future titles.

With Saren, he was there to oppose you every step of the way. And in the end, you understood why he did what he did, you know why he did it, and you basically come to understand him. As a result, he is a damn good antagonist.

The collectors are just your standard bland, evil race of evil bug-like aliens. Yeah there was Harbinger, but every time the collectors are around, you end up schooling him about a dozen times, which completely removes all sense of fear and danger he's supposed to have. That, and his constant taunts being said OVER AND OVER got really old, really fast.


I mean yeah, ME1 had a generic robot army that only started getting interesting in ME2, but Saren made them seem more interesting then they actually were. The Collecters are just bleh.

I blame The Old Republic for sucking up all of Bioware's best writers. Which means The Old Republic should have damn amazing characters. Hopefully.

*Shows the game to a friend* So anyway, here we are on Horizon an-- "I AM THE HARBRINGER OF YOUR DESTRUCTION!" Oh yea, thats some special guy that makes the normal units really reall- "I AM THE HARBRINGER OF YOUR DESTRUCTION". . So anyway, you kill him like this -boom- and if you dont kill the others fast eno-- "I AM THE HARBRINGER OF YOUR DESTRUCTION" that happends...

 

[Nikolaz72]

You know when they did this with the Empire Strikes back, it was considered brilliant. But when people do that today it's considered bad writing. *shakes head*

It's the middle act of a story. It has the disadvantage of having no beggining and no end, and considering those set-backs I thought it did a good job. Granted I haven't played DA2 (although I've been told by people the hate on it is undeserved), but ME2 worked. No villians? It's beaten into your head right off the bat that the Reaper's are behind the collectors. How is that having no villians?

There is no central figure. No rival, in a sense.
An enemy that is on the same footing as you, and someone with understandable motives.

Saren and Loghain were this, while Sovereign and the Archdemon were the big monsters, and the true evil.
You mentioned Star Wars and the Empire Strikes Back.
Darth Vader filled this role in that movie. The Empire/Emperor filled the role of the monster/true evil.
Sure, the Reapers as a whole are the villains. But there is no central avatar among them. Harbinger is the closest to this we have, but I think he failed at generating any fear/tension.

Dragon Age 2 doesn't really need a villain. It COULD have worked without one.
But it doesn't work. However, that is not the problem with the game.
It's about 1001 other things.
There was clearly some bold ideas behind Dragon Age 2 that got strangled by a mere 1 year of development time, and the lazy programmers.
I know it seems like people bash the game because its the hip thing to do, but it really was awful.
I've seen mods with better presentation and bug checks.

edit: It's probably also worth noting that Dragon Age 2 is not the middle child of a trilogy.
Its just a normal sequel. It needed to stand up on its own.
Bioware have said that the Dragon Age games are not following the same formula as Mass Effect.

I liked Dragonage 2. And yea, it did set up for a sequal. And please make a list of exactly one thousand and one problems and I'll agree with you.

 

[Still Life]

Also, back onto Mass Effect 3: Is Drew Karpyshyn still lead writer?

Mac Walters is lead writer.

My understanding is that the overarching narrative has been set since the early days.

 

[SNIPERFOX ft. Harry P.Ness]

* major ME2 plot spoiler*

before i found out the collectors were re purposed protheans, i was killing them for fun, but later on i was mercy killing them, like saren at the end of ME1

 

[TheAmazingTGIF]

Kinda agreed? I mean yea, the collectors didn't have much of a personality, but that was kinda the point, the reapers stole their identity, culture, everything that made them an actual people, and turned them into a mindless army. And hell

But if they have no mind of their own then the person, thing, entity, whatever controlling them should be important. We should see him, or not see him, but that thing should be a formidable opponent or be a master at manipulating events, so that even if they lose it is not that bad of a set back.

ker-snip

That Saren was a better villain? Agreed. 100%
That ME2 was a worse game? No, not really.
ME2 really shined, in my opinion, in its secondary events. Fleshing out the Geth, the whole character and backstory of Mordin, weaving a larger philosophical conflict (mostly ends justifying the means type things, but also more about humanity's maverick role in galactic society and whether that's good or bad.)
[/quote]
ME2 is not a worse game. It has a slightly worse story and gameplay element (but that is just opinion), but it is still better than 95% of the other games I own. I do think that the side quests were what made the game, but you should see the error in that. The SIDE QUESTS are the important part of the game?

I don't think OP understands that it's a series. If you paid attention to the end of Dragon Age II you'll realise that the Seeker was trying to find the Champion to aid in "something" and this something is very important.

Did I miss something? Didn?t I clearly make reference to the ?TO BE CONTINUED? hook as the very last sentence of the game in one of my posts?...

could have replaced saren with a LOKI too. Your logic is fundamentally flawed.

False, you can?t replace Saren with a mech, because then it would still be a rouge, UNIQUE mech that is doing things for a reason and is clearly leading the ground troops into battle for something or other. A LOKI Saren would still be the face of the antagonist force. For the Collectors you had the ASSUMING CONTROL annoying bastard. There was no leader, there was no command structure that you saw and could point at and say, ?Kill that one and all of the mindless drones will fall since they have no leader.? Hell, the Illusive Man was a better villain.

 

[Mr Dizazta]

How hard is if for people to realize that ME2 wasn't supposed to have a main baddie.

Excuse me?

Yes there was supposed to be a 'main baddie'. Harbringer and the collectors.

If there was no 'main baddie' then there was no point and no motivation. You're just mindlessly shooting things that aren't any real threat.

When I posted that I forgot to add a bit more. Mass Effect 2 cannot be compared to Mass Effect 1 because Mass Effect 2 (at least IMO) can be seen more as a TV series than a movie. Much like how Star Trek doesn't have a main villain, neither does ME2. Don't get me wrong, ME2 does have villains, however they aren't prominent as Saren was in ME1. IMO you can compare the Collectors with the Borg from Star Trek: TNG. I just see Mass Effect 2 as a large arch that is leading to the large final battle with the Reapers.

 

[Rayne870]

could have replaced saren with a LOKI too. Your logic is fundamentally flawed.

False, you can?t replace Saren with a mech, because then it would still be a rouge, UNIQUE mech that is doing things for a reason and is clearly leading the ground troops into battle for something or other. A LOKI Saren would still be the face of the antagonist force. For the Collectors you had the ASSUMING CONTROL annoying bastard. There was no leader, there was no command structure that you saw and could point at and say, ?Kill that one and all of the mindless drones will fall since they have no leader.? Hell, the Illusive Man was a better villain.

Remember the short dude with the really big head always on the computer that you obliterated with the bomb at the end. That's the Saren of ME2.

The basic fact of the matter is that you don't always need to take out the head honcho in direct fisticuffs (in this case the reapers) But you can fight the pawns for a bit as the big guy finally gets to you. Mass Effect was originally penned as a trilogy not just something that was decided as last minute due to success of the first game. Think of it as lord of the rings, the big baddy only gets killed at the end of the last movie, but the majority of the rest of the movies is essentially a hiking guide.

I think the big problem with gamers these days is they feel that they need everything to be overly epic all the time, that kind of just sets the bar at epic and gets old after awhile, I appreciate a change of pace and build up. Hence why the Political drama and civil war in DA2 drew me in rather than just going hey there's yet another big bad demon that we have to kill. If you want a prime example of this look at Dragon Ball Z, every new season is just another bad guy threatening to blow up the earth and it gets old after awhile.

 

[TheAmazingTGIF]

Remember the short dude with the really big head always on the computer that you obliterated with the bomb at the end. That's the Saren of ME2.

Did he even have a name? Did he have any lines? What distinguished him from the legions of his fellow collectors?

 

[Rayne870]

Remember the short dude with the really big head always on the computer that you obliterated with the bomb at the end. That's the Saren of ME2.

Did he even have a name? Did he have any lines? What distinguished him from the legions of his fellow collectors?

Here's where it gets complicated, he was a general being mind controlled by a reaper, which you speak to directly in Arrival, that general also acted as a relay point for mind controlling the really annoying morphed Harbinger collector and spewed taunts at you. While he doesn't dialogue much he is very much present as a commanding force behind the collectors and blatantly harassing you on the field.

I also added more to my previous response post that may be an interesting read, submitted for your consideration.