Interesting companion characters are Bioware's bread and butter, what's the point of asking them to change the thing they're arguably best at? I reckon they've only gotten better at characters with recent games. The party members used to be kind of average (see everyone in KOTOR), nowadays they've gotten pretty good at creating characters outside the standard Bioware archetypes.
What was that "no obligations to be politically correct" comment about? Who complains about political correctness these days? It's basically fodder for hacky stand-up comedians and newspaper reading old farts at this point.
What bothers me more with companions these days is that the interaction with them... even the romantic relationships... are written like a bloody questline with a start, middle and finisher. And after that theres nothing to it anymore.
Once you bedded your companion thats it... no more meaningfull romantic or otherwise interaction between your the two characters. THAT is much worse then anything else discussed in this thread in my eyes.
Not only is this very poor gameplay and storytelling it is also boring an childish. YAY achievement! I bedded Morrigan! So lets never talk to her again and dont take her into the party cause wynne is a much better healer anyways! See you later morrigan when the plot says we prolly should make a baby!
The same for mass effect or DA2... once you "finished" the questline... there was nothing more to it... congratufuckinglations... you wont die a virgin... achievement unlocked!
their presence in any work of fiction does not need justification outside of fitting the stting, it does not need judgment aside from "have they totally fudged this up?" [i/]not from you of all demographics[/i]
[img/]http://i.imgur.com/5LasHJF.gif[/img] [footnote/]disclaimer: the use of the word "*****" in this context is not directed at any particual poster or meant to cause offence, its just the gif was perfect![/footnote]
yes I damn well said it and I'm sorry if it doesn't pander to some peoples self congratulatory "sit around the campfire and sing kumbya" version things but I am sooooo sick of the self appointed committee of what is and is not acceptable kicking a shit fit because they think THEY ONLY REASON PEOPLE WOULD INCLUDE FREAKS LIKE US IN THEIR ART IS BECAUSE SOMONE FORCED THEM
*deep breaths*....ok
[please ignore everything above this point]
Saetha said:
That being said, I do kinda agree with this. If the biggest draw to your game (Or any of the characters therein) is "They aren't straight white guys," then maybe you need to rethink your strategy. Good characters aren't defined by arbitrary values like sexuality or race, and you can't substitute those qualities for good writing. Unfortunately a lot of people nowadays seem to be forgetting that, and will jump on any AAA release if you change only one of the words in the phrase "straight white guy."
but why do we question the "other" and not what we accept as "normal"?
the books of Sara Waters or the show Orange is the new black wouldn't mean anything to me if they weren't already superbly wirtten/acted, but the fact that they feature lesbian relationships IS important, its integral, your damn right its one of the biggest reasons I enjoy them
Ambient_Malice said:
As for the political content in Bioware games, I would suggest that Bioware created a problem when their writers started expressing their own opinions a bit too strongly. Also, blatant pandering. A good example would be Mass Effect's Asari, and the wacky way homosexuality was retconned into the universe despite Bioware flat-out stating they didn't want to put gay relationships in ME previously.
so when its hetero its ok, when its gay its pandering? or are we talking about the asari themselves because....yeeeeaah the asari
I thourght homosexual relationships were actually originally planned but cut (why..who knows?_
[quote/]Asari were "monogendered"[/quote]
and a whale might be a kind of amamel...but it still swims in the ocean like a fish....as I was getting at before the Assari are...problemetic to me for a couple of reasons
[quote/]
Myself, I was always bemused by how Mass Effect 2/3 glossed over the fact sex with aliens is kinda... bestiality. AFAIK, there isn't a single human character in the ME universe who points this out. (I never read the novels, though.)[/quote]
besiality is defined by the "animals" inhability to give consent
alien races are sentient and intelligent, they might be different species but they are not animals in the same way a dog is
Bioware has always done the companion thing. Them having companions in all their games isn't a new direction; it's the direction they've always been heading in.
-Yeah the movement towards companions began long ago and some games, such as kotor 2 and BG2 have companions and are classics.
-but I feel when you make a game from the ground up around companions it doesn't work well, and that seems to be the approach these days.
They stated somewhat recently that their fans are clamoring for deeper companionship and so they oblige themselves, and I don't feel it's panning out well.
bluepotatosack said:
Is them including homosexual relationships the "need to be politically correct"? I'm kind of confused about that one.
I don't really see it as politics. People are diverse and many have different sexual orientations and likes. Making every companion straight just seems boring. I don't like it when every companion is bisexual but I like it when they have a couple of straight, bisexual, gay, and lesbian companions. It makes the companions seems like actual people that have different sexual needs and desires. They actually feel like living breathing people.
Bioware has produced epic fail games ever since they have been bought out by EA. The only decent thing they have managed to publish under their genius management was ME2 which already showed the direction the company is being forced to take - making everything as simple and as shiny as possible.
There is a problem with bioware and companions but it not what you stated. Bioware have moved further and further away from a group based gameplay and made more and more focus on the main character so it doesn't feel like a group of heroes going up against the odds to save the day. And more like you are the solo hero with a bunch of useless groupies.
I suppose you could make the argument that Neverwinter Nights wasn't party based, you could "hire" a single NPC and IIRC they did have a couple of related side missions but they were in no way essential, I didn't even realise they were a thing until about 2/3 of the way through. In fact as a thief type character I found their moronic AI more of a hindrance than a help. But basically I agree with you, I was just using this as an excuse to dribble on about Neverwinter Nights. Thanks!
OP...Yeah...I don't really know, the aforementioned NWN is the only Bioware game I've ever liked so I probably can't judge this very well, never got far enough into any of them to judge the companion type NPCs. Companions in FONV were the awesome though. Take from that what you will.
Ambient_Malice said:
Myself, I was always bemused by how Mass Effect 2/3 glossed over the fact sex with aliens is kinda... bestiality. AFAIK, there isn't a single human character in the ME universe who points this out. (I never read the novels, though.)
I may be wrong here but I think the "point" of bestiality is not the fact that it's a different species but that it's an "animal". Of course as far as we're concerned in reality there isn't any difference because we haven't come across another uhhh....whatever the word might be for something with human like intelligence that we can communicate with on a roughly equal level. I suppose it could be labelled as something like xenophilia maybe?
It's really obvious to me at times how influenced fantasy is by Tolkien the Victorian Prude. Thing is this; there's ALWAYS been people of all kinds of sexualities out there; people have ALWAYS been gay, bi, trans and all manner of queer; it's just that in the genre so influenced by Tolkien everyone expects rugged white straight guys (saving the princess) when in truth the ACTUAL medieval age had all manner of interesting queer folk. Obviously most of the records about them will be colored by some prejudice
Spoiler for Dragon Age Inquisition below
Krem in Dragon Age Inquisition is a good example. When I saw Krem I could only think "Oh I can't WAIT for the whine-fans beginning to shriek about "waah waah evil PC is tainting our gaaameees! [Transpeople] didn't exist back then!" Let me just say "Mulan". And that's not even the only example: among other there's a story in Sweden about how a woman dressed up as a man to join the army back in the 18th century.
So yeah, claiming the greater sexual diversity in Bioware games is just "politics" is outright ignorant. Fact is that it'd be even more political to ONLY have straight people in games, because reality doesn't look like that. Really, it doesn't. There's a great variety of "ways to be" and depicting one way ONLY is what's political, not saying "Yeah, he's gay" and move on. Bioware games depict a diverse reality rather than monolithic straightness (which still is the majority way in all the game worlds), if that's a problem then well; as harsh as it might sound you might very well have a problem with reality.
That being said, I do kinda agree with this. If the biggest draw to your game (Or any of the characters therein) is "They aren't straight white guys," then maybe you need to rethink your strategy. Good characters aren't defined by arbitrary values like sexuality or race, and you can't substitute those qualities for good writing. Unfortunately a lot of people nowadays seem to be forgetting that, and will jump on any AAA release if you change only one of the words in the phrase "straight white guy."
The fuck? Could you calm the offended savior act? I didn't say anything about how this shit isn't normal and thus, is obviously "other." I don't believe that at all. Hell, I'm not even mad at BioWare's writers for including diversity like they do. Mostly I'm just pissed at fans that'll dismiss any character as soon as they learn that they're straight/white/male without even knowing anything about them. They could be the best damn character in the game, but none of that matters because of the color of their skin or what they're packing in their pants. And then those who'll ignore any actual personality to a character to scream about how they're not straight/white/male, as though people are defined entirely by these values and not, you know, their morality or compassion or anything else. I'm pissed at those who treat characters like commodities, like clothing, where they're only valid if they come in the right shape, right color, right size - and not like people, who should be defined by who they are, not what they are.
If anything, I don't accept straight/white/male as normal, and everything else as an other. If anything, I think the exact opposite, to the point where lesbians, POC, women, whatever, are so completely and profoundly normal that their inclusion warrants no particular praise or even attention. They're just there. They're just people, same as everyone else, and I insist on treating them the same as I'd treat any other character.
Vault101 said:
the books of Sara Waters or the show Orange is the new black wouldn't mean anything to me if they weren't already superbly wirtten/acted, but the fact that they feature lesbian relationships IS important, its integral, your damn right its one of the biggest reasons I enjoy them
*Shrug* That's fair. Things get tricky when you get into romance and sexuality. I don't read really get into lesbian romance, mainly because I'm not a lesbian, and the lack of any attractive guys in a romance severely diminishes my interest in it. Call me shallow, but sexuality tends to be.
Good thing he said he was gay then, making this entire bitchfest an incredibly petulant and superfluous addition to the thread.
OT
Fukkin' Bioware and it's diversity! While I too am utterly appalled by the PC Brigade's insanity in character design, I feel that the actual companions themselves tend to be an entertaining and endearing lot and so I fully support Bioware's continuing plunge into the murky swampwaters of liberal game design.
Or something.
Although I will agree with the sentiments expressed about the Sims style approach to romantic and sexual relationships, i.e. just talk enough and anyone will let you in their pants. Kind of tacky and just a bit stupid, but I feel it's an inevitability of having a blank slate player character that can befriend anyone. If Shepard or the Grey Warden were fully characterised before the player got hold of them, then there could be room for more meaningful relationships, but that in turn would suck out some of the charm of Bioware games in my opinion.
After DA:I i want them to stay on the course they heading, game is one of the best they ever made, plus they said that Inquisition is template for all Bioware games to come, so i'm optimistic of what is to come and direction they are going. Game made around companions from ground up works well for me.
Bioware needs to hire someone who can write actual romances. The stuff I've seen from Inquisition all looks awfully childish. Not everything needs to be innuendo! And for god's sakes, the "hide the sausage" camera shots are just awkward.
At least it isn't as bad as the "let's fuck in the middle of camp while Sten watches" scenes from Origins.
Iron Bull's romance path actually seems to be pretty damn good, just because it's so funny.
OT: These are wish fulfilment games. That's just Bioware's thing. They make games where you can feel like "the man": Kicking ass, taking names, spreading your fame, and making all the lads and ladies swoon. It's silly and it doesn't hold much artistic value, but it's a fun fantasy and that's really all it needs to be.
I like how that stopped being about perceived bigotry about halfway down the list of apparently "offensive" portrayals and just turned into arbitrarily whinging about every other character in the past few Bioware games.
Don't get me wrong, mate; as a big-dicked alien soldier myself, I'm offended by the way Bioware writers depict my people.
You know what's cool about Dragon Age and Mass Effect? The fact that every now and then, you'll run into NPC soldiers that are female. They don't have to be named characters, but the fact they exist speaks volumes about the world. For all the complaints of tokenism in terms of race, gender and sexual orientation in party members, I'd say they earn the right to try and address those topics because of the level of diversity in the setting.
What bothers me more with companions these days is that the interaction with them... even the romantic relationships... are written like a bloody questline with a start, middle and finisher. And after that theres nothing to it anymore.
Once you bedded your companion thats it... no more meaningfull romantic or otherwise interaction between your the two characters. THAT is much worse then anything else discussed in this thread in my eyes.
Not only is this very poor gameplay and storytelling it is also boring an childish. YAY achievement! I bedded Morrigan! So lets never talk to her again and dont take her into the party cause wynne is a much better healer anyways! See you later morrigan when the plot says we prolly should make a baby!
The same for mass effect or DA2... once you "finished" the questline... there was nothing more to it... congratufuckinglations... you wont die a virgin... achievement unlocked!
Pretty much agreed, although i did think DA:O did it fairly well as there was still some (not enough imo, but some) developement after characters had sex, you could still mess it up by going after other characters or saying the wrong things, and you could improve it a little bit more.
I think the two worst things Bioware has done with campanions is making them available for talking at only certain times. Ok some things only coming up at certain plot points is fine and i even encourage that but completely preventing you from talking was stupid at best. And the dialogue wheel.... oh god.
Ok when the dialogue wheel first appeard in ME i liked it well enough but not anymore. I often find my self not reading what it says because i know what response i need for the out come i want. Top is good, bottom bad, every time. Gone are the days where i would read through the options and pick what seemed I thought would be the best option or want i want to say, thinking what the character im talking to is like and then what they would appreciate. This isnt exclusive to Bioware games though, look at Fallout 1 and 3 and compare convincing The Master to self destruct to convincing the big bad computer of Fallout 3. Its pathetic.
I mean we essentially have a romance button now rather than figuring out what it is the character wanted.
And on the topic of sexuality.... kudos Bioware. I think its fantastic we can have homosexual and bisexual characters. I'm not a fan of how it took until the third Mass Effect game to have same sex male couples but we finally got there. Inclusion is fine by me, it may not fit every setting but if it does i see no reason not to do it.... now if Bioware got some good writers again it would be even better.
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