BioWare Unoriginal?

[Something Amyss]

Is it just me, or has Bioware became completely unoriginal?

As an example: DA2 seems to "borrow" quite a few parts of it's gameplay and storytelling from Alpha Protocol. One or two of these wouldn't be a massive thing, but when you start doing the entire thing and putting it together you have to scratch your head.

Examples: The conversation system is taken pretty much directly from AP. The three conversation choices instead of two aligned and one neutral was a major factor of AP's design, where it's the "suave, aggressive and professional" choices determining what kind of spy you are.

The framing device of a person being interrogated on past events is taken pretty much directly from AP (although it's done far better, in my opinion, in Alpha Protocol). This alone set me off on hunting for more similarities.

Rivalry bonuses are taken, once again, directly from AP. If the handler you were using hated you, you got a completely different bonus than if they liked you. In fact, it was often beneficial to make a handler hate you if their bonuses weren't of much use to you since the opposite bonuses could be far more useful.

I've noticed this with other elements of BioWare's games (like the Dragon Age setting as a whole seems to be "inspired" by the Prince of Nothing trilogy).

Comments?

I don't see any of these as having screamed AP enough to merit a complaint that they're taking or even borrowing from the title.

Now, I found DAO so boring I didn't finish and DA2 isn't even on my "to do" list, so don't take this as fanboyism. In fact, the more people who get off Bioware's jock as some brilliant company that can do no wrong, the happier I'll be when I log on to the Escapist. BUT, that doesn't mean I'm going to slag either unfairly.

AP's "style" system is still just a morality system with a slightly different name and slightly different options. Expansion of an idea can make it unique, but this certainly does NOT take the steps needed to do so.

The "Framing" device is a common one in both movies and books, and has been used before in gaming as well. It's another way to tell a story in media res (One of the recent Extra Credits gave some good coverage on why they are used, though amnesia specific). While not the most common method, it's not unique enough to AP to call it : borrowed" from a specific source.

The rivalry system? I have to at least half-concede this one, because while I could swear I've seen it before, I can't think of where. However, it does seem like a natural extension of DAO's friendship/relationship system to some degree.

 

[ph3195k9]

I have always thought that Obsidian and Bioware worked fairly close together as far as developers go. I mean after all when Bioware could not work on KotOR 2 they passed on to Obsidian because they were too busy at the time with Jade Empire at the time so I guess in my opinion it kind of seems natural that their styles are similar.

 

[DevilWolf47]

I'm not particularly focused on it at the moment. I'm ignoring EA games until they grow up and stop trying to sell games by coming up with their own controversy, and i wasn't interested in Dragon Age anyway. I don't know if i'm a tactical genius or if Origins was meant to be played by people who are severely autistic, but i always found Dragon Age: Origins to be too easy and was turned off when i saw an announcement that Dragon Age 2 replied to that "Steep difficulty curve."

That's like toning down the difficulty for the casual mode of Mass Effect 2 by making all enemies Vorcha and letting tech and biotic abilities recharge instantly.

 

[Axolotl]

I'm sorry, is the entirety of the fantasy genre not one big clichéd unoriginal copy?

Good guy is happy - evil comes and makes good guy unhappy - good guy kills evil - good guy happy again.
Hell, IT'S NOT EVEN JUST FANTASY. EVERY GAME OUT THERE IS ABOUT THE GOOD GUY TO STOP THE EVILZ! (Except of course simulators and the like, but you get my point.)

Just because the Fantasy genre and videogames as a medium a bereft of creativuity doesn't excuse Bioware from being unoriginal.

Since you obviously are a much better writer than anybody Bioware could ever hope to hire, please give me a story I could make a game with, that involves killing people but has nothing to do with good vs. evil AND will sell.

Why does it have to involve killing people? But even then, stories that aren't a simplisitc Good guys vs Evil guys are fucking everywhere. The majority of novels, films and plays manage to create plots that aren't like that, hell even fucking comics can get beyond that. Why do you think games can't?

 

[ImSkeletor]

Both of these were done in the 90's by other RPG developers. You could just as easily argue Obsidian is ripping off Black Isle.

Well Obsidian did spawn from Black Isle so much of the team would just be taking from past work and not really ripping off.

OT: I have played 2 Bioware games. 1 Dragon Age: Origins. Probably the single least original game I have played and probably the worst gameplay I have ever had to work with. 2. Mass Effect which is fairly original and fairly fun.

 

[Devour]

You obviously understand the concept of a framing device - does that not mean that both AP and DA have plagiarised from Citizen Kane? No.

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

The style, concept and execution of both AP's and DA2's framing devices are ALMOST EXACTLY THE SAME. Ambiguous interrogation of a lone person in a room on past events to allow the player to effect the story without causing too much trouble in forcing him down a linear corridor.

I wouldn't blink if it was different or in a different medium, but the simple fact that the framing device is almost exactly the same in exactly the same medium is what gave me pause.

LOL Alpha Protocol stole that conversation wheel idea from Mass Effect, which is Bioware's other current RPG series. The only differences are that 3 different styles of response instead of Paragon-Neutral-Renegade (read: good-neutral-evil), and the conversation usually continues with whichever you choose until you change it again. DA2's system is more like Mass Effect's without the morality meter anyway.

So, you're saying that the "silly, angry and mediator" conversation system isn't at all like AP's "suave, aggressive and professional"? Yeah... You're talking out of your arse, really.

I'm not saying Obsidian didn't take some of Bioware's concepts, but the way BioWare did it was blatant rip off. There's a considerable difference. Obsidian tried to improve on the concept, BioWare just said, "OH THAT'S PRETTY LET'S TAKE IT".

 

[TilMorrow]

LOL Alpha Protocol stole that conversation wheel idea from Mass Effect, which is Bioware's other current RPG series. The only differences are that 3 different styles of response instead of Paragon-Neutral-Renegade (read: good-neutral-evil), and the conversation usually continues with whichever you choose until you change it again. DA2's system is more like Mass Effect's without the morality meter anyway.

Hahaha, claiming Bioware is copying Obsidian... oh the irony

^This. I agree. With.

Also I'm laughing as I just quickly check who made KOTOR 1 then 2. Take a guess...

Spoiler

KOTOR was made by Bioware and KOTOR2:TSL was made by Obsidian Entertainment.

Now I quickly check which was made first: ME or AP?

Spoiler

Mass Effect by Bioware was made first of course with Alpha Protocol by Obsidian coming some time after

and finally I decided to go off on a tangent and check out the last two fallout games...

Spoiler

Fallout 3 by Bethesda was before New Vegas by Obsidian

[sub]Okay the last example isn't much as they were kinda of paid to do it but still...[/sub]

I think we can see who the actual copy cats are if someone decides to point fingers. But back to the point of unoriginality. Unoriginal? At the moment the gaming industry seems to be reusing the same genres over and over without creating an entirely new one yet so its kinda hard to argue that Bioware is being unoriginal. Also they made Mass Effect. Enough said.

 

[CrashBang]

Bioware is a fantastic dev, my favourite, in fact, but that doesn't mean they're wholly original. Playing and learning from other games is a sign of a thorough development process. Another example is Naughty Dog; they always take inspiration from other games and use that to make their own masterpieces. It's learning and growing, it's not lacking originality

 

[4173]

This is only tangential, but man was the alignment system in Baldur's Gate terrible. Player really only had two options 20/20 or 19/20 if you wanted evil characters in the party.

(Yes, I know a person could roleplay and have low reputation, but I think the penalties for evil were too severe to be a good mechanic overall.)

 

[Buizel91]

Bioware take the RPG genre and add little things here and there, and try things that have been done before but better.

For me, every Bioware game has had Likeable/Relatable characters (Carth Onasi, Atton Rand, T3M4, HK47 Alistair and Morrigan, (haven't played ME or ME2 but I've seen people mention Characters, i believe one character from the first actually has Carths Voice Actor) also a few Characters from Jade Empire.

They have good and engaging stories (the amount of times i have replayed DA:O is ridiculous) and usually keep you hooked, kinda like a Pokemon, you play at 1, and don't realise you ahve been on the game for about 5 hours...

What they do, they do right, but when they try new things, people complain (DA2 for example) hell every dev does it, why Bioware should be different is beyond me, i admit it needs the odd patch, but many people calling the game "Broken" is stupid.

Sorry, got carried away at the end there

 

[helsinki]

I've been lurking a long time, but this discussion got me to finally create an account.

The notion of "originality", in a medium that's 30 years old and with tens (hundreds?) of thousands of titles, is absurd. There are occasional leaps and bounds (innovations), but for the most part, it's a matter of finding (or trying to find) the right combination of elements and mechanics that have already been proven successful.

In ME2,I found the combat system derivative of Freedom Fighters. Multiple other games use the same sort of weapon selection wheel. If the "conversation system" was unique to Mass Effect or Alpha Protocol, all it did was tweak the age old response system of displaying your potential response(s) as complete sentences and you selected one. The Paragon/Renegade system has been reiterated dozens of times, to varying degrees of success, for the past ten years.

Anyway, a driving factor in producing game sequels is to appeal to a fan base that's already established. Madden, Super Mario Bros., Street Fighter, Metal Gear - everyone that buys these games know what to expect. It's just a matter now of tweaking elements in the system to make it better without taking away its strengths.

Complaining about originality is short sighted. It's the formula that matters, now.

 

[lacktheknack]

Name a game released in the last year that has been entirely original.

I doubt you can name three.

 

[Choppaduel]

The industry is practically built on ripping off ideas from other games. Not suprising. The important issue isn't whether it's original, it's whether its fun/challenging.

 

[James Joseph Emerald]

Reminds me of this:

Spoiler: Chart of Bioware Clichés

I mean, people have been making fun of Bioware for their lack of imagination in plot/story for years. The only thing they're really good at in terms of writing is world-building.

 

[Zhukov]

Quite frankly, Bioware have never been original.

Don't get me wrong, I love their games. They've produced some of my all time favourites. But their strength has always been in the detail and execution, not the originality of the core concept.

I'm not so sure about them ripping off Alpha Protocol though.
- The DA2 conversation system clearly owes its design to Mass Effect. That is to say, it's almost exactly the same. You can hardly accuse them of ripping off their own game.
- The friend/rival thing is just an extension of the Dragon Age system.
- Lastly, the interrogation as a framing device isn't exactly rare.

Then again, if they did rip off Alpha Protocol, at least that would mean something good came out of that turgid piece of crap.

 

[Le_Cable]

Is it just me, or has Bioware became completely unoriginal?


The framing device of a person being interrogated on past events is taken pretty much directly from AP (although it's done far better, in my opinion, in Alpha Protocol). This alone set me off on hunting for more similarities.

Bioware didn't steal that from alpha protocol. That is a story structure called Frame Narrative. It's been used for hundreds of years, by countless authors prior to the existence of video games.

 

[Xannieros]

I think as long as the game is good, who cares if its unoriginal?
You can say they borrow ideas, but they add on to the game. Its like saying the game is unoriginal for using swords because another game used them.


I think someone said this but...
Your Example to Alpha Protocol is wrong, the conversation system isn't too different from 2 other games they have made. Also Alpha Protocol was released AFTER those 2 games.

Mass Effect 1: May 28, 2008
Dragon Age: Origins: November 2009
Alpha Protocol Release: June 1, 2010

 

[Devour]

Then again, if they did rip off Alpha Protocol, at least that would mean something good came out of that turgid piece of crap.

AP probably has the most cinematic gameplay of any game I've ever played.

Bioware didn't steal that from alpha protocol. That is a story structure called Frame Narrative. It's been used for hundreds of years, by countless authors prior to the existence of video games.

"DERP DERP DERP DERP DERP DERP"

EDIT: Seriously, this shit is as bad as BioWare's "the only thing you're seeing is the Hero's Story, no cliched trite here". You're saying that what I'm seeing is the narrative framing when I'm saying I'm seeing a specific narrative framing that seems to be taken from another game in the same genre of game that was recently released.

If the framing was a grandfather telling his grandchildren about his adventures, I WOULD HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH IT. It is, instead, on both sides of the fence, a person being interrogated by a person they are pretty much against to tell the story.

I think as long as the game is good, who cares if its unoriginal?
You can say they borrow ideas, but they add on to the game. Its like saying the game is unoriginal for using swords because another game used them.


I think someone said this but...
Your Example to Alpha Protocol is wrong, the conversation system isn't too different from 2 other games they have made. Also Alpha Protocol was released AFTER those 2 games.

Mass Effect 1: May 28, 2008
Dragon Age: Origins: November 2009
Alpha Protocol Release: June 1, 2010

Okay, look at it this way. This is how the inspiration goes:-

Mass Effect conversation system + 1 option and no real morality system = Alpha Protocol's system = Dragon Age 2's system.

As you can see, inspiration happens between Mass Effect and Alpha Protocol. Why is this so difficult?

 

[Falseprophet]

Do these chicken-and-egg arguments really matter? In the AAA video game industry, when one game introduces some innovative mechanic that seems to work, you can bet every game for the next 5 years will try to copy it whether it makes sense or not. Every third-person shooter since Gears of War has tried to copy its cover system. Every hack & slasher since God of War has incorporated QTEs. Every FPS since Halo has tried to be Halo. It's just par for the course.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

I do not mind biowares story's I do mind them turning gameplay into uninspired crap....