Black Gods and Female Space Marines; A Sexy Study

[Ultrajoe]

why would they choose women to undergo the procedure when women are 52 percent weaker in the upper body and 66 percent weaker in the lower, have a basal metabolic rate that is 10 percent lower, have weaker bones, tendons, and ligaments, have smaller hearts, have 30% lower lung capacity in relation to body mass and a 10% lower red blood cell and haemoglobin count reducing their circulatory systems oxygen-carrying capacity. have lower circulating clotting factors (vitamin K, prothrombin and platelets) all of which adds up to the faster healing of wounds and higher peripheral pain tolerance ?

oh ye the fantasy world thing...ours and theirs...go for it i guess /shrug

just don't ever make the mistake of thinking real world women are as physically strong or as physically resilient as men.
they aren't. if you believe that you are entertaining a fallacy likely to lead to incorrect jugements and views.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_dimorphism#Humans

alternatively, if you don't want to take the science onboard, we could just have a mixed sex Olympics one year...

that'd be a laugh.

The thing here is that the trials set down by most Space Marine legions don't have a blood test to determine gender. They just throw lots of deadly shit at you and you try to survive. Greaseballs of either gender wouldn't make it. I know some damn fine women who would put many of the men I know to shame and who could do what it takes to reach the legion gates. This isn't about maximum potential of a person's gender, this is about making the grade.

What so many eager proponents of the 'Sexual Dimorphism As A License To Exclude' idea fail to remember is that even allowing for a genetic disadvantage, any challenge that is too hard for any woman no matter how hard she tries is also going to be too damn hard to let a fair portion of the male sample through as well. The point here is that if you set a challenge, it is in the human condition to try to best it. Women feel this, they strive for achievement with all the fire of a male filled with the same passion. People, unaided, will do some truly astonishing things.

But in this case, they're also not unaided. If accepted into a Chapter, an initiate is stuffed with so many extra organs and hormones that they become a copy of a warrior-template down to their speech pattern. Unless you accept the utterly laughable premise that a society capable of doing this can't account for the difference of males lacking a bit of chromosome, the final product is a sexless clone anyway.

All that's required is for a female child (remember the age of indoctrination, here) who is at this point the same as their male rivals, to make it through the legion's tests. Even accepting that they have a harder time of doing that, which I do question, them getting there means they're ready to be flesh-engineered into an Angel of Death and forgo whatever 'male advantage' they lack for the advantages of being a goddamn Astartes.

Males, as far as I know, don't spit acid and suck knowledge out of dead brains.

Also, it's fiction in which hell is real, Orkz exist and magic abounds in the garden of space elf ninjas. Derp?

you want to test the point run off and ask for equality in the sporting arenas.

The woman you're quoting frequently finds sporting equality on a Judo mat. She slams the boys down just as hard as the women, I assure you. Depending on how short you are, she'd likely have few issues launching you over her head, regardless of whether you have a fleshy handhold between the thighs or not. I should know, I have the bruises.

Not between the thighs, mind you. That's Shido.

ALSO; I actually read your source, you know. Did you?

'The greater gender difference in upper body strength can probably be attributed to the fact that women tend to have a lower proportion of their lean tissue distributed in the upper body'
'No significant gender difference was found in the strength to CSA ratio for elbow flexion or knee extension, in biceps fiber number... or in any motor unit characteristics'
'A significant correlation was found between strength and muscle cross-sectional area '
'Eight men and eight women'

People with more muscles are stronger? Gee.

Thanks for that.

I wouldn't have guessed.

Next time try a sample size larger than 16, then it might actually be science!

 

[Valkyrie101]

Fair enough, it doesn't explicitly state that they can't become Astartes. However, the total lack of them does suggest that it doesn't happen. Furthermore, from a biological point of view, men generally are stronger, tougher e.t.c. than women. Some women can be stronger than guys, but the very strongest will always be men, and only the very strongest are capable of even surviving the creation process.

As to their image: can you even imagine a female Marine? Astartes have a certain... feel to them, a sort of psychotic Spartan Knight Templar aesthetic. All of the virtues that they embody are masculine ones. There are hard women in the universe, but none of them can be as hard or as other as the Astartes, much in the same way that men wouldn't really fit the Sisters of Battle theme.

The people taken to become Sphess Muhrens are pre-pubescent children. I don't see how male/female toughness factors into it at age 8 or 9.

As for imagining female space marines, you missed the bit where I brought up just how fundamentally changed the physical form would be, regardless of their starting gender. Here's a quote just for you.

Of course, the catch all of "Well, chicks just can't handle that, bro." gets in the way here as Ultrajoe said. It's a cop out, and a shitty one at that. There's no reason that a male body could handle the amount of chemicals pumped through them to produce space marines, yet the fluff allows it. Hormone treatment of F to M transsexuals is evidence that it would no more kill women than it would men. Of course they wouldn't be feminine afterwards, they would be as grotesquely mutated and bloated with muscle as the male space marines.

I'm not asking that they produce space marine models with breasts. Not only would that be an integrity flaw in the armour, but it wouldn't fit the pseudo-science.

Of course, if Games Workshop were really going to change things, they'd just cut all this shit out and do it. There's nothing to prevent female space marines popping up in relatively unknown chapters, or even new chapters. As I said fluff is malleable.

Even if it were possible, which I doubt, female Space Marines just don't work. Don't forget, they're essentially a monastic order, and how many of those contain women? They're an entirely masculine concept, and ought to stay that way.

 

[Ultrajoe]

Even if it were possible, which I doubt, female Space Marines just don't work. Don't forget, they're essentially a monastic order, and how many of those contain women? They're an entirely masculine concept, and ought to stay that way.

My name is Ultrajoe. Look at my original post, now back to yours. Now back at the OP, now back to yours. Sadly, mine isn't yours. But if you stopped repeating mantras we've worked out are bogus you could post like it was yours.

Look down, now back up. Where are you? You're in a thread with the Joe you soon could post like. What's this? It's a post with several arguments you should read. Look again... the Post is now DIAMONDS. Anything is possible when you take part in discussion instead of repeating baseless statements.

I'm on a Board.

Serious Business; I also think there shouldn't be Femarines, but that doesn't stop your argument from being silly.

 

[Ninjamedic]

snip

I never thought of it that way, You're completely right Joe, I would support this idea.

However I have a few Thoughts:
1: How would this effect the Chaos Legions?
2: Should the Blood Angels be Changed accordingly?
3: Could the IG be viewed in the same way?

 

[Ninjamedic]

My name is Ultrajoe. Look at my original post, now back to yours. Now back at the OP, now back to yours. Sadly, mine isn't yours. But if you stopped repeating mantras we've worked out are bogus you could post like it was yours.

Look down, now back up. Where are you? You're in a thread with the Joe you soon could post like. What's this? It's a post with several arguments you should read. Look again... the Post is now DIAMONDS. Anything is possible when you take part in discussion instead of repeating baseless statements.

I'm on a Board.

Serious Business; I also think there shouldn't be Femarines, but that doesn't stop your argument from being silly.

Sir, I am making this Post MY POST OF THE YEAR.

 

[Ultrajoe]

snip

I never thought of it that way, You're completely right Joe, I would support this idea.

However I have a few Thoughts:
1: How would this effect the Chaos Legions?
2: Should the Blood Angels be Changed accordingly?
3: Could the IG be viewed in the same way?

1) Chaos legions are largely based on 30K marine legions plus marines turned or recruited after that. There would likely be few (or none) 30K femarines if a retcon was made, but after that females like power just as much as men... chaos provides. Hell join Slaanesh and you'll get more sex organs than you can shake a stick... at.
2) I don't know, really. This is all just to say there's no technical reason it wouldn't work and if there is it can be rubbed out easily. Is there a narrative reason? Debatable.
3) Imperial Guard take any warm body. They are frequently female in current fluff.

/snip

i said "go for it i guess /shrug"

Derp?

While I applaud your easy out, you've come into a thread waving 'Real World Science' about when the thread is talking about Norse Gods, Marvel films and Spess Mehrens. 'If I go for it' is kind of a given and a fairly solid assumption of this thread, pretending you don't know this doesn't reflect well on you.

 

[7Horns7Eyes]

The universe of 40K has never been static, the fiction of this world has been changing since it was released. New armies, new races, new guns, new characters. Nearly every addition to this galaxy of hate and conflict comes with a rich history, full of places, dates and descriptions about how it was gleefully employed to kill millions of Whoeverites on day Humbeldy-Boo of the Blady-Blort conflict. Nearly every one of these additions didn't exist in the fluff before becomming a codexed unit. Take the Thunderfire Cannon for example, apparently this ancient weapon was only ever in use in places we've never heard about in the fluff, because screw you, that's why. Either that or the STC plans for it were in a box marked "Do not open until 41st millenium -Love, The Emperor".

My point is that aside from making sure everyone has an adequate supply of shoulder pads, GW doesn't really care about the integrity of the universe as far as new additions are concerned. Unless you're messing with the main points of the fiction, they actively encourage you to make up your own stories. I could field a giant Penis instead of a Thunderwolf Cav. As long as I keep it on the same base size and remember that my Penis Shall Know No Fear, it's fine for the most part.

If someone ever tries to tell you that they care about what genitals their 7 foot tall, acid spitting, ass kicking, name taking, dead emperor loving death machine may have had, then you hit them in their god damned face. You keep hitting whilst reciting every ridiculous ret-con that GW has ever shoved down our throats. If there's anything left after this, ask them why they're not playing Rouge Trader if the sanctity of the fiction is so bloody paramount. Oh, what's that? You don't mind fiction changes as long they don't put used-to-be-female-200-years-ago super humans into space marine armour? OH, WELL THAT'S ALRIGHT THEN.

This whole argument is tinged by chauvinism and on the whole just rather silly.

 

[RagnorakTres]

...I could field a giant Penis instead of a Thunderwolf Cav. As long as I keep it on the same base size and remember that my Penis Shall Know No Fear, it's fine for the most part...

That, sir or madam, is going on my quote wall. Seriously.

 

[Valkyrie101]

Even if it were possible, which I doubt, female Space Marines just don't work. Don't forget, they're essentially a monastic order, and how many of those contain women? They're an entirely masculine concept, and ought to stay that way.

My name is Ultrajoe. Look at my original post, now back to yours. Now back at the OP, now back to yours. Sadly, mine isn't yours. But if you stopped repeating mantras we've worked out are bogus you could post like it was yours.

Look down, now back up. Where are you? You're in a thread with the Joe you soon could post like. What's this? It's a post with several arguments you should read. Look again... the Post is now DIAMONDS. Anything is possible when you take part in discussion instead of repeating baseless statements.

I'm on a Board.

Serious Business; I also think there shouldn't be Femarines, but that doesn't stop your argument from being silly.

Hey, calm down. I was giving my opinion in a nutshell, because I have neither the time nor the inclination to write an essay on a topic that isn't really that important to me. If that bothers you, just ignore the post like everyone else.

 

[Ultrajoe]

Hey, calm down. I was giving my opinion in a nutshell, because I have neither the time nor the inclination to write an essay on a topic that isn't really that important to me. If that bothers you, just ignore the post like everyone else.

I do have the time, and the inclination. I did, in fact, write a lengthy (relatively) piece which set out the terms of this thread and the matter for discussion. When I see somebody acting as if they never read it before leaping into my thread, can you understand why I might be a little bit... sardonic?

I apologise for being snarky, but not for my intention; I am upset you would disregard my efforts so in favour of releasing your opinions regardless of the work I had done. If you don't have the inclination to take part properly in a discussion... why take part at all? It's not like this thread determines whether we get Femarines or not.

Goodnight (or morning, depending on where you are) and sleep well.

 

[TimeLord]

I myself do not have an endless understanding of 40k fluff but from what I remember, Sisters of Battle are women given power armour, bolters and not much else. Therefore, (if I remember) Sisters of Battle are not genetically enhanced, or at the very least, not as much as your average Space Marine. This is the reason given for the fact that Sisters of Battle have a lower toughness value in the game rules than generic marines (unless that has changed, I haven't played the actual board game in a year or so).

My point being that the sisters are portrayed as a fighting force that is not necessarily weaker because they are women but their lack of genetic manipulation. But I am unsure whether their lack of genetic manipulation is established because they are women but that is a fluff issue that should really be dealt with, if it hasn't already. If the Sisters were more established as a powerful force on par with the general marines then this wouldn't be so much of a problem. But as Ultrajoe said; the games is based mainly on a male audience.

I'll admit, when I played the game, I always assumed by default that Space Marine were male and Sisters of Battle were (obviously) female by default.

 

[Valkyrie101]

Hey, calm down. I was giving my opinion in a nutshell, because I have neither the time nor the inclination to write an essay on a topic that isn't really that important to me. If that bothers you, just ignore the post like everyone else.

I do have the time, and the inclination. I did, in fact, write a lengthy (relatively) piece which set out the terms of this thread and the matter for discussion. When I see somebody acting as if they never read it before leaping into my thread, can you understand why I might be a little bit... sardonic?

I apologise for being snarky, but not for my intention; I am upset you would disregard my efforts so in favour of releasing your opinions regardless of the work I had done. If you don't have the inclination to take part properly in a discussion... why take part at all? It's not like this thread determines whether we get Femarines or not.

Goodnight (or morning, depending on where you are) and sleep well.

The post you were quoting wasn't my whole argument, I was just re-emphasising a point I had already made, which was similar (though more concise and less well-expressed) to the one you espoused in the OP. Namely that regardless of whether or female Astartes are biologically possible, they are utterly at odds with both the theme of the universe and the Imperium, and the medieval nature and attitude of the Legions/Chapters.

 

[BonsaiK]

I think we're all missing an important, highly relevant point here.

I'd like to see female space marines in.... whatever this thing is, or anywhere else for that matter, simply because I'd like to see female space marines. For a thread labelled "a sexy study" there isn't much acknowledgement yet from either side of the argument that female space marines would probably look stylish and hot and this alone is ample justification for their inclusion, certainly all the justification that I require. Most science fiction isn't a bastion of extreme realism where the capabilities of men, women and things that float and squirm are carefully physically rationalised, nor should it be. I think we can let a few things slide, so why not let a few women slide into a space marine uniform?

And before anyone calls "sexist" I'd just like to say Sigourney Weaver is a feminist icon and the subject of umpteen gender studies theses, thanks to the Alien films, in particular the second one where she's pretty much a space marine.

if you don't want to take the science onboard, we could just have a mixed sex Olympics one year...

that'd be a laugh.

Three words for you: Chinese swimming team.

It's called "science fiction" for a reason, anyway. But if we must use lame-o "realism" justifications for everything, one could argue that because women are more flexible than men that this might prove to be more of an asset after being injected with drugs or whatever because they're better able to move all that drug-induced bulk gracefully and efficiently. Of course there's no way of proving that, but it is a work of fiction after all, so it can be anything it wants to be.

If you'll excuse me I'm now off to try and talk my girlfriend into some cosplay...

 

[Disaster Button]

It seems that people are forgetting that a lot of the lore will be written from the point of view of the Imperium itself and they are notoriously decietful. Hell, they even chained up their own Emperor and forced him into eternal stasis just so consume his life energy to power their empire. The priests dominate the Imperium and they call the shots. All they do is weave tangled webs about the Emperor and how he wants humans to dominate the galaxy when in reality, he was completely opposed to that ideal. The Imperium is based on Dark Ages style premise, if a little hyperbolic, where biggotry, oppresion, and all kinds of -"isms" are normal. Maybe women really can't survive the mutation process, or maybe the priests just don't want women to be Space Marines because they just don't like women very much. We just don't know. I can see how some consider this sexist but I don't think I do, I'm not entirely certain. But I do know that whatever the reason is for women not being indoctrinated into the Space Marines, it will be kept closely guarded by the Imperial priests.

Edit: Come to think of it, I feel that it is a bit unfair that only the Space Marines are having the accusation of sexism thrown at them when there are plenty of other Mono-Gendered batallions focusing just on men or women.

 

[TimeLord]

I think we're all missing an important, highly relevant point here.

I'd like to see female space marines in.... whatever this thing is, or anywhere else for that matter, simply because I'd like to see female space marines. For a thread labelled "a sexy study" there isn't much acknowledgement yet from either side of the argument that female space marines would probably look stylish and hot and this alone is ample justification for their inclusion, certainly all the justification that I require. Most science fiction isn't a bastion of extreme realism where the capabilities of men, women and things that float and squirm are carefully physically rationalised, nor should it be. I think we can let a few things slide, so why not let a few women slide into a space marine uniform?

There are female "marines" called Sisters of Battle they just aren't on par with the original Space Marines.

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/1/10459/840914-sister_of_battle_color_large.jpg

 

[Annulus]

why would they choose women to undergo the procedure when women are 52 percent weaker in the upper body and 66 percent weaker in the lower, have a basal metabolic rate that is 10 percent lower, have weaker bones, tendons, and ligaments, have smaller hearts, have 30% lower lung capacity in relation to body mass and a 10% lower red blood cell and haemoglobin count reducing their circulatory systems oxygen-carrying capacity. have lower circulating clotting factors (vitamin K, prothrombin and platelets) all of which adds up to the faster healing of wounds and higher peripheral pain tolerance ?

oh ye the fantasy world thing...ours and theirs...go for it i guess /shrug

just don't ever make the mistake of thinking real world women are as physically strong or as physically resilient as men.
they aren't. if you believe that you are entertaining a fallacy likely to lead to incorrect jugements and views.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_dimorphism#Humans

alternatively, if you don't want to take the science onboard, we could just have a mixed sex Olympics one year...

that'd be a laugh.

Male space marines are already artificially several times stronger, faster, smarter than the average joe. Females being weaker is a cop out.

The only valid argument in that respect is the nature of the creation of the gene seed.

The main reason there shouldn't be female space marines is stated in the OP: 40K is based on a grimdark future.
Heck, the first thing on the rulebook is, "In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only...WAR!"

Any deviation from the norm is treated with extreme distrust, with inquisitors having a "better safe than sorry" attitude.

The sisters of battle are already almost considered heretics.

Basically, the 40K universe is populated with nazis, forced to be that way because of the unimaginably terrible nature of their universe.

 

[Vampire cat]

-monstersnip-

No, I wouldn't care if they changed that backstory to allow female Space Marines, as I said. They do it a lot and it doesn't really bother me, they have to keep it up to date and fresh so...

And in the case of the Norse stuff: I haven't seen any movie such as you describe, nor have I heard of one, but no I wouldn't mind it. If they depicted the actual gods according to the mythology I would mind, but this is some sort of new blend. Similar to what Stargate does with all of the worlds gods I'd imagine.

 

[Veret]

Okay, I'm not terribly versed in 40k, and I think UltraJoe and Labyrinth between them have covered the topic to my satisfaction, so I apologize if it seems like I'm hijacking the topic. But I want to talk about this:

Very well said. I'm adopting a "wait and see" approach to this whole thing. I honestly don't care if the actor is black or not. As long as he's a good actor and does the role well, I'll be happy.

Exactly, the actor shouldn't matter, its ACTING that does.

Unless you're a Hobbit, then it will apparently ruin the story. >.>

In short, yes it will. Well..."ruin" is exaggerating more than a little, but hear me out.

Babies, in my experience, are not born arbitrarily black. They are black because their parents are black, and their parents' parents were black, etc. If you put a black (or asian, or hispanic, or sylvan) character in your story, then you accidentally create an entire race of people along with them. Where are they now? Do the rest of them also live in the area? They must have migrated there from someplace far off, or they never would have evolved to be different in the first place. What brought these two races together? There's a story there, and you're ignoring it.

Or what if your token black guy left his homeland and journeyed to where he is now? There's certainly a story there, and you're still ignoring it. Is he the sole survivor of some cataclysm or genocide that wiped out his entire race, save one? There's a story there too, and I'm willing to bet it's more interesting than the one you're about to tell me. Whatever handwaving explanation you choose, it makes a story, and you're just treating it as an inconsequential backdrop.

Universes like Tolkien's are great because of their attention to detail, and because they don't just leave this stuff unanswered. Adding an out-of-race character for the hell of it destroys that consistency. Worse still, it demands that every foreign setting reflect the exact composition of the American melting pot--which is, ironically, more bigoted than just having an all-white cast to begin with.

Okay, I'm done now. You can go back to your regularly scheduled discussion.