Black Ops Swastika Emblems Will Earn Xbox Live Ban

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Toulouse is calling for respect on Xbox Live?

Is anyone else reminded of Moses trying to part the Red Sea at this point?

 

[Shadeovblack]

IT's idiocy, plain and simple.

 

[Rajin Cajun]

Well the game has a premade Hammer and Sickle, should I be banned for using that seeing as Communism has killed more than Fascism.
(I'm on PC so it doesn't matter)

My thoughts exactly. Just look at the bodycounts of the USSR, China and Cambodia. That shit is over the top yet it is premade....go figure.

 

[imnot]

Stupid Nazis. Why did you have to ruin the swastika for everyone else?

and they ruined charlie chaplions mostashe!

 

[zHellas]

Shiny-Snip

Or maybe the Black Lanterns, since you keep coming back from the dead a lot... You know, respawns?

 

[Thirsk]

So the world can't tell the difference between this [http://www.google.dk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.odinic-rite.org/img/fylfot.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.odinic-rite.org/fylfot.html&usg=__p8tJpv2AopKOanYWb6uiCMzcbN4=&h=219&w=235&sz=23&hl=da&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=M07AbVoDRK_sjM:&tbnh=154&tbnw=165&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfylfot%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dda%26biw%3D1440%26bih%3D785%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=414&ei=vpPqTMv2BoLssga78dmrCw&oei=vpPqTMv2BoLssga78dmrCw&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=28&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0&tx=61&ty=84] and this [http://www.google.dk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.knowledgerush.com/wiki_image/e/e9/Naziswastika.png&imgrefurl=http://www.knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclopedia/Fylfot/&usg=__M8Oh2SYNLF5JqnS0xWqgtMmYdKA=&h=200&w=200&sz=2&hl=da&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=z7sdwYfE5-WzWM:&tbnh=154&tbnw=160&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfylfot%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dda%26biw%3D1440%26bih%3D785%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=217&ei=vpPqTMv2BoLssga78dmrCw&oei=vpPqTMv2BoLssga78dmrCw&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=28&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:0&tx=58&ty=64]? That's what the clever Xbox-guy says, as I read it.

Sigh, the world is stupid.

EDIT: As a fun side-note, I'm pretty sure I saw the former (non-nazi) variant on a shield design in Dungeons and Dragons Online. No outrage about that, as far as I know.

 

[WestMountain]

To be fair, the Nazis only committed one of the most heinous crimes in recorded human history.

really? I would say thee most notorious, I mean how many people were killed due to Alexander and his army? what about Stalin?

Stalin for the most part killed his own people so did Mao and several dictators today. But Hitler and the Nazi party oversaw the systematic persecution, collection, and attempted eradication of an entire race. Not for political difference or any crimes other than the fact they were a specific race or an "undesirable."

The swastika is an ancient symbol but the tilting at an angle and putting it on a white and red background makes it clear they were thinking of Nazism when they made it. I can see how it'd be offensive and I just find it annoying and unimaginative, but I don't think an insta ban is that necessary could just put a lock on their layers to like 3 so they couldn't make anything that ornate.

Well the Nazis did the killing for the greater good they thought, in their minds they were saving mankind from the "evil" jews.

Stalin and the rest of the dictators that killed loads of people did it for power and control over people for their own selfish needs.

Therefore I think that what the Nazis did is more "okay" than what Stalin & co did.

 

[stdragon]

It's depressing how stupid people are.

If you want to ban the swastika, just admit that you are against free speech, even for pure symbols, not speech where you are instructing people to murder, or speech whose production directly harmed someone like child porn. Just a symbol. You are against it. So man up and admit it.

There's no difference between the swastika and the hammer and sickle.. except that liberals who control the PC police have a hardon for communism.

There's no difference between the swastika and a Christian cross being painted onto a gun.

There's no difference between the swastika and the Islamic crescent popping up after being blown up.

Except they would lose too many sales from the inevitable boycotts if they targeted any more mainstream stuff.

Ohhhh waaaaaa there's not enough context to explain your symbols.. yeah well that should cut both ways shouldn't it. It's retarded to get offended by a tiny symbol with no context.

 

[I_am_acting]

It's depressing how stupid people are.

If you want to ban the swastika, just admit that you are against free speech, even for pure symbols, not speech where you are instructing people to murder, or speech whose production directly harmed someone like child porn. Just a symbol. You are against it. So man up and admit it.

There's no difference between the swastika and the hammer and sickle.. except that liberals who control the PC police have a hardon for communism.

There's no difference between the swastika and a Christian cross being painted onto a gun.

There's no difference between the swastika and the Islamic crescent popping up after being blown up.

Except they would lose too many sales from the inevitable boycotts if they targeted any more mainstream stuff.

Ohhhh waaaaaa there's not enough context to explain your symbols.. yeah well that should cut both ways shouldn't it. It's retarded to get offended by a tiny symbol with no context.

exactly, you know i'm often asked why i don't use consoles at all and it's stupidity like this that is the reason, come on, if you don't like the symbol or people who use it then don't play with them, plain and simple, of course that's probably easier on the PC due to the whole dedicated severs thing

 

[TerribleAssassin]

I thought the Swastika was a backwards version of the Buddhist symbol. Is that not right?

Swastika was already Buddhist symbol, doesn't matter which way round, the Nazi Swastika was at 45 degree incline, that's the way you tell them apart.


Also, ban them if they use the Nazi Swastika, if they use any other version they have done nothing wrong.

 

[JDKJ]

To be fair, the Nazis only committed one of the most heinous crimes in recorded human history.

really? I would say thee most notorious, I mean how many people were killed due to Alexander and his army? what about Stalin?

Stalin for the most part killed his own people so did Mao and several dictators today. But Hitler and the Nazi party oversaw the systematic persecution, collection, and attempted eradication of an entire race. Not for political difference or any crimes other than the fact they were a specific race or an "undesirable."

The swastika is an ancient symbol but the tilting at an angle and putting it on a white and red background makes it clear they were thinking of Nazism when they made it. I can see how it'd be offensive and I just find it annoying and unimaginative, but I don't think an insta ban is that necessary could just put a lock on their layers to like 3 so they couldn't make anything that ornate.

Well the Nazis did the killing for the greater good they thought, in their minds they were saving mankind from the "evil" jews.

Stalin and the rest of the dictators that killed loads of people did it for power and control over people for their own selfish needs.

Therefore I think that what the Nazis did is more "okay" than what Stalin & co did.

Damn. I gotta thank you. What you just posted and I therefore was able to read has completely justified my time spent here. It's kinda like if I spent all day up in a deer stand and didn't see a single deer but did see a chupacabra running across a field, then my time spent in the deer stand wasn't at all a complete waste of time.

Thanks.

 

[ShadowKirby]

I have to admit first thing that comes to my mind when someone mentions word "swastika" are Nazis and then Buddhist symbol. However I don't find it offensive . Would it be wrong of me if I said ppl should just move on? Yes you should forgive but not forget, but seriously does dwelling on it help anyone? Nazism, racism, and violating people rights in any way should be condemned, hell it should be rooted out. We all know that people tend to jump to conclusions, and using swastika as an emblem is provocative despite your intentions. Give ppl ability to put anything on their emblems and of course they're gonna misuse it. It surprises me that ppl can still take anything attention seeking individuals do on internet seriously; much less let it affect them in any way.

If "using [a] swastika as an emblem is provocative despite [the user's] intentions," then it would seem to me that the root of that problem lies not with the user but, rather, with those who would be provoked. If so, then it would seem to me that the solution lies not on the user's side of the equation but, rather, on the side of the provoked.

Xbox's decision to ban the user and ignore the provoked is a lot like America's War on Drugs. Target the drug-producing countries outside of America and ignore the demand for drugs inside of America. That strategy hasn't worked very well, I don't think.

But then you promote a society where poeple don't give a sh!t about others' feelings or well-being simply because it's "your problem". Western culture has been taking a steady dive towards this self-centred attitude for a long time. The idea is that people have the right to do what they want. Fair enough, and you do. However people also have the right not be confronted if they don't wish to be. It isn't any of our right to dictate to others what they should and shouldn't be upset about. If they are, then they no doubt have good reason. Forcing such things upon them and then telling blaming them for being offended (while legitimising the action with trite assertions of pesonal freedom), is against human decency. XBL does constitute a public space, and like any other, common courtesy should be observed.

"If they are, then they no doubt have good reason."

If being a hyper-sensitive whiner is what you call a "good reason" to be upset, then you've got a point. But if that's the case, then I suspect we may need to go far beyond the mere banning of swastikas in order to ensure that the hyper-sensitive whiners of the world aren't upset. I suspect that the list of things likely to upset them is long. Very long.

And while we're at it and if we're taking requests, can we ban the whinings of hyper-sensitive whiners? There's nothing that upsets me more than the whinings of hyper-sensitive whiners. I'd like to exercise my "right not be confronted [by their whinings] if don't wish to be."

Yes, all those Jewish families that were broken by the Holocaust are such hyper-sensitive whiners... :\

What about that makes them so special? Any more special than the Armenians, Rwandans, Bosnians, Sudanese, Native Americans, etc., etc., etc., who have also had their families broken by their own Holocaust? There's no monopoly on misery. And those who would think there is are, in so doing, only moving closer to my inclusion of them among the class of hyper-sensitive whiners.

There isn't anything special about them over all those other nations that suffered Holocausts, but it doesn't make the use of the swastika any better does it?

 

[RIOgreatescapist]

Stupid Nazis. Why did you have to ruin the swastika for everyone else?

They ruined it for martial arts back then why not keep the tradition alive.

 

[Elementary - Dear Watson]

They should just ban all religious symbols all together and make it fair for everyone!

No Crosses, Stars of David, Stars, Moons, Triangles, Circles, animals, military emblems, anything that depicts anatomy, anything that depicts furniture, cutlery, weapons... or anything with colour. Hopefully that will not offend anyone then...?

 

[rsvp42]

Apparently some people are being willfully ignorant of the swastika's current symbolism. It symbolizes Nazi germany, white supremacy and racial hatred. That's what it means now. It doesn't matter what obscure or ancient group used it here or there, NOW it means what Nazis and white power assholes turned it into.

Wait.. what? Ancient and obscure? Right. Yes. You're totally correct. Nothing exists beyond the narrow western interpretations you are aware of. Good job. Have a banana.

The modern swastika is a hate symbol. We of course can't pass judgement on anyone that used it prior to the Nazis, but now it's a hate symbol. When people use it in an online game, they are not making a statement about the shifting perceptions of society, they are being assholes. They're toeing the line and pushing the limits. It's like seeing a "keep off the grass" sign and running out onto the grass even though there's nothing on the other side. It's not noble, it's seeing how far you can push it. Well now, on this game, the line's been drawn. It's better they ban it than be all wishy-washy about because of some pre-WW2 use of the symbol that half the players are barely aware of.

There are currently eight pages of discussion about this now. Just on this one story. Clearly the symbol is controversial, so I see no reason to allow it to remain. We can wax philosophic on forums all day, but people trying to run this game have a job to do.

In all fairness, I think you are taking a very narrow and Western-driven view of the possible symbolism behind a swastika-like depiction. Its use isn't at all ancient or obscure or necessarily always that of a hate symbol. As has been pointed out here before, its use in numerous Asian cultures is quite current, prevalent, and bears no association at all with hate of any kind. As one poster has pointed out, the packaging of his favorite brand of noodles is festooned with swastika-like symbols. Are we to conclude that those noodles are Nazi, Jew-hating, Aryan-supremist noodles?

I think you're also taking an absolutist view of its use online as necessarily indicating assholery in all cases. But it could well be just as possible that some online gamers who would choose to employ a swastika-like symbol aren't intent on pushing any envelopes or promoting hate or trolling, etc. They could just as easily be using it as symbolic of any one of the purely benign things it represents in Asian cultures. And you're not equipped in any way that I can discern to definitively say that they aren't using it in an entirely benign manner. At best, you're conjecturing and speculating.

Now, I don't say any of this in support of or opposition to Xbox's decision to ban its use. That's their prerogative. Rather, I say all of this to say that your view is, in my opinion, misinformed, poorly supported, and terribly one-sided.

Well we are talking about Microsoft, an American company. You can't expect them to allow its use to continue just because a few folks think it's not so bad. Besides, the ONLY Asian countries that even have XBOX Live are India, Japan, South Korea, and Singapore. Microsoft has 31 other countries to worry about. You have to think realistically about it. Just because some countries have a few innocuous uses for a variation on the symbol does NOT erase its past and current stigma for all the other countries. You accuse me of taking a narrow Western view, but I'm taking a view that accounts for a much larger part of Live's player base.

Right now I feel like I'm just debating people who are playing Devil's advocate with me. Does anyone out there honestly have a non-Nazi use for the Swastika that is so near and dear to their heart that this ban means anything at all? We're talking about banning the symbol for Nazis and everyone's getting uppity on principle for the sake of countries they've never been to, nor even get XBOX Live, nor would even care (possibly) if they did. The lack of pragmatism is disheartening.

 

[JDKJ]

I have to admit first thing that comes to my mind when someone mentions word "swastika" are Nazis and then Buddhist symbol. However I don't find it offensive . Would it be wrong of me if I said ppl should just move on? Yes you should forgive but not forget, but seriously does dwelling on it help anyone? Nazism, racism, and violating people rights in any way should be condemned, hell it should be rooted out. We all know that people tend to jump to conclusions, and using swastika as an emblem is provocative despite your intentions. Give ppl ability to put anything on their emblems and of course they're gonna misuse it. It surprises me that ppl can still take anything attention seeking individuals do on internet seriously; much less let it affect them in any way.

If "using [a] swastika as an emblem is provocative despite [the user's] intentions," then it would seem to me that the root of that problem lies not with the user but, rather, with those who would be provoked. If so, then it would seem to me that the solution lies not on the user's side of the equation but, rather, on the side of the provoked.

Xbox's decision to ban the user and ignore the provoked is a lot like America's War on Drugs. Target the drug-producing countries outside of America and ignore the demand for drugs inside of America. That strategy hasn't worked very well, I don't think.

But then you promote a society where poeple don't give a sh!t about others' feelings or well-being simply because it's "your problem". Western culture has been taking a steady dive towards this self-centred attitude for a long time. The idea is that people have the right to do what they want. Fair enough, and you do. However people also have the right not be confronted if they don't wish to be. It isn't any of our right to dictate to others what they should and shouldn't be upset about. If they are, then they no doubt have good reason. Forcing such things upon them and then telling blaming them for being offended (while legitimising the action with trite assertions of pesonal freedom), is against human decency. XBL does constitute a public space, and like any other, common courtesy should be observed.

"If they are, then they no doubt have good reason."

If being a hyper-sensitive whiner is what you call a "good reason" to be upset, then you've got a point. But if that's the case, then I suspect we may need to go far beyond the mere banning of swastikas in order to ensure that the hyper-sensitive whiners of the world aren't upset. I suspect that the list of things likely to upset them is long. Very long.

And while we're at it and if we're taking requests, can we ban the whinings of hyper-sensitive whiners? There's nothing that upsets me more than the whinings of hyper-sensitive whiners. I'd like to exercise my "right not be confronted [by their whinings] if don't wish to be."

Yes, all those Jewish families that were broken by the Holocaust are such hyper-sensitive whiners... :\

What about that makes them so special? Any more special than the Armenians, Rwandans, Bosnians, Sudanese, Native Americans, etc., etc., etc., who have also had their families broken by their own Holocaust? There's no monopoly on misery. And those who would think there is are, in so doing, only moving closer to my inclusion of them among the class of hyper-sensitive whiners.

There isn't anything special about them over all those other nations that suffered Holocausts, but it doesn't make the use of the swastika any better does it?

Assuming the use of the swastika is somehow intended to relate to the Jewish Holocaust in some negative way, then, no, that use isn't made any better. But to single out that use and that particular Holocaust while ignoring all the other symbols which can be used to somehow negatively relate to all the other Holocausts (e.g., the American flag and the Native America Holocaust) strikes me as unfairly selective. And if done as part of some attempt to cater to the concerns of a particular class of victims while ignoring the concerns of all other classes of victims, strikes me as elevating that particular class of victims to the status of hyper-sensitive whiners.

 

[MoNKeyYy]

I'm not going to sift through eleven pages of comments to see if this point has already been made but does anyone seriously thing that more than one percent of people using the swastika are actually doing it because of it's ties to buddhism? All of the retarded jackasses who are using it are doing it just because they're 12 year old minds think "Hey lok im usin da nazi syml lol im so funnnny =P". Everyone just says 'Nah man, I'm using for it's ancient history' as justification so they can avoid looking like a ****.

 

[Hamster at Dawn]

I hope that if they're going to start banning people for this then they'll give a fair warning so that people can change it. I can understand why they don't want the swastika in the game because it might offend some people (not saying I completely agree but I see their reasoning) but you can't just go banning people en masse because you feel like it. There's nothing offensive about the swastika itself, just the things associated with it.

 

[JDKJ]

Apparently some people are being willfully ignorant of the swastika's current symbolism. It symbolizes Nazi germany, white supremacy and racial hatred. That's what it means now. It doesn't matter what obscure or ancient group used it here or there, NOW it means what Nazis and white power assholes turned it into.

Wait.. what? Ancient and obscure? Right. Yes. You're totally correct. Nothing exists beyond the narrow western interpretations you are aware of. Good job. Have a banana.

The modern swastika is a hate symbol. We of course can't pass judgement on anyone that used it prior to the Nazis, but now it's a hate symbol. When people use it in an online game, they are not making a statement about the shifting perceptions of society, they are being assholes. They're toeing the line and pushing the limits. It's like seeing a "keep off the grass" sign and running out onto the grass even though there's nothing on the other side. It's not noble, it's seeing how far you can push it. Well now, on this game, the line's been drawn. It's better they ban it than be all wishy-washy about because of some pre-WW2 use of the symbol that half the players are barely aware of.

There are currently eight pages of discussion about this now. Just on this one story. Clearly the symbol is controversial, so I see no reason to allow it to remain. We can wax philosophic on forums all day, but people trying to run this game have a job to do.

In all fairness, I think you are taking a very narrow and Western-driven view of the possible symbolism behind a swastika-like depiction. Its use isn't at all ancient or obscure or necessarily always that of a hate symbol. As has been pointed out here before, its use in numerous Asian cultures is quite current, prevalent, and bears no association at all with hate of any kind. As one poster has pointed out, the packaging of his favorite brand of noodles is festooned with swastika-like symbols. Are we to conclude that those noodles are Nazi, Jew-hating, Aryan-supremist noodles?

I think you're also taking an absolutist view of its use online as necessarily indicating assholery in all cases. But it could well be just as possible that some online gamers who would choose to employ a swastika-like symbol aren't intent on pushing any envelopes or promoting hate or trolling, etc. They could just as easily be using it as symbolic of any one of the purely benign things it represents in Asian cultures. And you're not equipped in any way that I can discern to definitively say that they aren't using it in an entirely benign manner. At best, you're conjecturing and speculating.

Now, I don't say any of this in support of or opposition to Xbox's decision to ban its use. That's their prerogative. Rather, I say all of this to say that your view is, in my opinion, misinformed, poorly supported, and terribly one-sided.

Well we are talking about Microsoft, an American company. You can't expect them to allow its use to continue just because a few folks think it's not so bad. Besides, the ONLY Asian countries that even have XBOX Live are India, Japan, South Korea, and Singapore. Microsoft has 31 other countries to worry about. You have to think realistically about it. Just because some countries have a few innocuous uses for a variation on the symbol does NOT erase its past and current stigma for all the other countries. You accuse me of taking a narrow Western view, but I'm taking a view that accounts for a much larger part of Live's player base.

Right now I feel like I'm just debating people who are playing Devil's advocate with me. Does anyone out there honestly have a non-Nazi use for the Swastika that is so near and dear to their heart that this ban means anything at all? We're talking about banning the symbol for Nazis and everyone's getting uppity on principle for the sake of countries they've never been to, nor even get XBOX Live, nor would even care (possibly) if they did. The lack of pragmatism is disheartening.

It's kinda ironic that you would use pragmatism to sell your position. It was also pragmatism that was used to sell, from among the competing proposed solutions, the Final Solution. It's tangential at best, yes, but nevertheless noteworthy.