Blaming the victim

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scar_47

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There are some situations where the victim should have been more aware of their surrounding and taken precautions this may have prevented the incident from occurring but it's never the victim's fault they were attacked, robbed ect.
 

Flare Phoenix

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NinjaDeathSlap said:
Flare Phoenix said:
NinjaDeathSlap said:
Just to counter balance what I am about to say I will clarify that their are no people more disgusting than those who will blame their sick twisted attitudes towards women on somebody else's fashion sense! However...

The laws that surround what actually constitutes rape are very convoluted and not very fair. I have a family friend (nicest man you'll ever meet btw) who has been to prison for 5 years for rape. The details are that his wife (who was having an affair and looking for a way out of their marriage behind his back at the time) gave him oral one night. She later claimed in court that for 5 seconds (yes, 5 fucking seconds) of the act that it wasn't consenting.

And he went to prison...
for 5 years...
WTF!
Yeah, I heard in some countries if a woman, at any time, decides she was raped it is considered raped. That means a woman can consent, they can have sex, and afterwards she can go "Well that wasn't very good. I was raped!". Now tell me that is not unfair.

I did a short course a few weeks back, and this girl was going on about how she was going to claim her ex-boyfriend had raped her because they had had sex when she was 17 (she is 25 now). She said outright it would be purely for revenge, and that she had consent at the time. You want to know the sick thing: all of her female friends agreed that it would be the right thing to do...

No one deserves to be raped, but my god some deserved to be punched in the face...
Luckily I don't think many people are that vindictive, but, yeah...

Out of interest, what did the ex do that made her want to fabricate a rape charge to get revenge? Couldn't she just have broken a load of his stuff, or taken a shit on his bed like normal insane ex-girlfriends do?
She gave no indication he'd done anything to deserve the rape claim aside from the fact they had dated and broke up after a couple of years. It was the way she said it too: I COULD get him charged with rape, rather than I SHOULD get him charged with rape, or other girls need to be protected (or something like that). She really just wanted revenge because the relationship didn't go well.
 

cobra_ky

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Agayek said:
The second type is one more commonly found in colleges/frat houses and the like. This type is purely about the sex. It's usually assisted with some form of chemical, be it alcohol, rohypnol or whatever else you want to use. This instance is generally (and nowhere near always) one of shared blame. Obviously most of it lies with the attacker, and they are the one who should be punished severely. That said, the victim is at least partially responsible.
Please explain to me how it can possibly be the victim's fault if they are drugged with rohypnol.
 

Flare Phoenix

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cobra_ky said:
Agayek said:
The second type is one more commonly found in colleges/frat houses and the like. This type is purely about the sex. It's usually assisted with some form of chemical, be it alcohol, rohypnol or whatever else you want to use. This instance is generally (and nowhere near always) one of shared blame. Obviously most of it lies with the attacker, and they are the one who should be punished severely. That said, the victim is at least partially responsible.
Please explain to me how it can possibly be the victim's fault if they are drugged with rohypnol.
In the case of rohypnol no, but I believe is someone goes out, gets completely wasted, they should be held responsible for their actions. But if someone slips something into their drink, hell no.
 

Flare Phoenix

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RT-Medic-with-shotgun said:
NinjaDeathSlap said:
RT-Medic-with-shotgun said:
NinjaDeathSlap said:
RT-Medic-with-shotgun said:
NinjaDeathSlap said:
Just to counter balance what I am about to say I will clarify that their are no people more disgusting than those who will blame their sick twisted attitudes towards women on somebody else's fashion sense! However...

The laws that surround what actually constitutes rape are very convoluted and not very fair. I have a family friend (nicest man you'll ever meet btw) who has been to prison for 5 years for rape. The details are that his wife (who was having an affair and looking for a way out of their marriage behind his back at the time) gave him oral one night. She later claimed in court that for 5 seconds (yes, 5 fucking seconds) of the act that it wasn't consenting.

And he went to prison...
for 5 years...
WTF!
*clicks the button that says 'Would you like to know more?"*
I'm sorry this is probably me being stupid but I don't understand?
I want to know more of that case and i stated it as though i were clicking the more info button on the news terminal in the (god forsaken piece of shit) Starship Troopers movie.

A dorky way of saying i want to know more of how the court got to that standing.
tbh with you I really don't know how it came to that, I wasn't at the trial and he doesn't like to talk about it much (He was lucky the judge could have given him even more time but I think he took pity). Without wishing to be cynical I honestly think that when most juries hear the word "rape" they literally stop listening to anything the defense has to say. Such is the stigma that surrounds a crime like that the countries greatest defense barrister could offer all the proof of innocence he liked but as far as the jury is concerned the guy's as guilty as sin and deserves to spend the rest of his life nervously watching his back in the showers.
Look mate me and Google are going to find out about this so maybe some key words to find a news article?

Also the idea that a few seconds during sex can justify it as rape is bull shit. That judge had better have been disbarred, that jury fined, and his wife(sorry if shes family but she is a **** if she pursued charged for that) and she deserves jail time for wasting court time and resources, worsening the gap on what is consent and rape.
The laws seem designed to allow women to criminalize sex they regret because its so fucking easy and so many get away with it.

And apparently in Marryland it is 100% legal for a woman to say 'Get the fuck out of my snatch or i yell rape" and if he doesn't register what she said, pull out and get off/out from under her within 5 seconds it is legally rape.

How can a law like that even get passed?
Well it's like the law that says if a robber breaks into your house and cuts himself on a knife you had left lying around, he can sue you for injury.
 

NinjaDeathSlap

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Wow, I gotta say I'd be tempted to warn off any guys she might have lined up for the future if I were you.
 

cobra_ky

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Arizona Kyle said:
Did you even bother reading this before you <a href=http://tailerag.blogspot.com/2009/08/there-is-discussion-between-me-and.html>copy and pasted it?

if you don't have anything original to contribute then stop wasting our time.

Arizona Kyle said:
before i'm label as a sexist, please let me explain. i'm not saying guys can't control themselves and that everytime they see some skin that they go "OH MY GOD!!! LET'S RAPE!!! XD

but it is a fact however that seeing sexily dressed women stirs a reaction in them. Come on guys, be frankly honest, just what sort of thoughts enter your mind when u see a really scantily-clad woman? i hardly doubt that your thinking, "oh wow, that SO makes me wanna read a book?"
Yes, heterosexual men are often sexually attracted to women. What's your point?

Arizona Kyle said:
the difference is, guys like you and me have self control, we don't go act out what we are thinking cause we understand that it's wrong; either that or we haven't got the guts, lol i of course am going with the latter =P
Anyone lacking self-control to that degree has no place in a civilized free society. Guts have nothing to do it; forcing yourself onto a defenseless woman is pretty much the most gutless thing you could possibly do.
 

Flare Phoenix

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NinjaDeathSlap said:
Wow, I gotta say I'd be tempted to warn off any guys she might have lined up for the future if I were you.
She already had another partner... and two girls (which she had gotten from her ex-boyfriend who she was claiming "raped" her). I feel bad for the girls if they're going to grow up believing they can get what they want through rape claims.
 

NinjaDeathSlap

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Feb 20, 2011
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Flare Phoenix said:
NinjaDeathSlap said:
Flare Phoenix said:
NinjaDeathSlap said:
Just to counter balance what I am about to say I will clarify that their are no people more disgusting than those who will blame their sick twisted attitudes towards women on somebody else's fashion sense! However...

The laws that surround what actually constitutes rape are very convoluted and not very fair. I have a family friend (nicest man you'll ever meet btw) who has been to prison for 5 years for rape. The details are that his wife (who was having an affair and looking for a way out of their marriage behind his back at the time) gave him oral one night. She later claimed in court that for 5 seconds (yes, 5 fucking seconds) of the act that it wasn't consenting.

And he went to prison...
for 5 years...
WTF!
Yeah, I heard in some countries if a woman, at any time, decides she was raped it is considered raped. That means a woman can consent, they can have sex, and afterwards she can go "Well that wasn't very good. I was raped!". Now tell me that is not unfair.


I did a short course a few weeks back, and this girl was going on about how she was going to claim her ex-boyfriend had raped her because they had had sex when she was 17 (she is 25 now). She said outright it would be purely for revenge, and that she had consent at the time. You want to know the sick thing: all of her female friends agreed that it would be the right thing to do...

No one deserves to be raped, but my god some deserved to be punched in the face...
Luckily I don't think many people are that vindictive, but, yeah...

Out of interest, what did the ex do that made her want to fabricate a rape charge to get revenge? Couldn't she just have broken a load of his stuff, or taken a shit on his bed like normal insane ex-girlfriends do?
She gave no indication he'd done anything to deserve the rape claim aside from the fact they had dated and broke up after a couple of years. It was the way she said it too: I COULD get him charged with rape, rather than I SHOULD get him charged with rape, or other girls need to be protected (or something like that). She really just wanted revenge because the relationship didn't go well.
wow, I gotta say I'd be tempted to warn off any guys she may have got lined up for the future if I were you.
 

cobra_ky

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Flare Phoenix said:
cobra_ky said:
Agayek said:
The second type is one more commonly found in colleges/frat houses and the like. This type is purely about the sex. It's usually assisted with some form of chemical, be it alcohol, rohypnol or whatever else you want to use. This instance is generally (and nowhere near always) one of shared blame. Obviously most of it lies with the attacker, and they are the one who should be punished severely. That said, the victim is at least partially responsible.
Please explain to me how it can possibly be the victim's fault if they are drugged with rohypnol.
In the case of rohypnol no, but I believe is someone goes out, gets completely wasted, they should be held responsible for their actions. But if someone slips something into their drink, hell no.
ok. so if get completely wasted and somebody steals my wallet, i should be held responsible for my actions? what if i pass out drunk and someone kidnaps me and steals my kidney? i'm just trying to get a handle on the ground rules here.
 

DrOswald

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Spot1990 said:
DrOswald said:
Spot1990 said:
It's kinda like saying if you don't want to be robbed don't own nice shit.
It's kinda like saying if you don't want to be robbed don't take your nice shit and wave it in front of potential muggers.
Except that mentality implies we should treat everyone as a potential mugger. If a girl wears sexy clothes she's not waving it in anyone's face. Unless, as you said, she goes somewhere that is known for that kind of behaviour. But even still a person shouldn't commit rape. The victim may not have acted in the smartest way, but no one is making the rapist be a sick fuck. The rapist is the one who chose to commit the horrible act. There's nothing wrong with wearing sexy clothes, rape is decidedly bad.
I agree with everything you said, with 2 exceptions:

1. Sexy clothes are designed to show off a woman's body. It is showing off their nice, ahem, "shit." (I apologize for the unfortunate wording, it made sense when I made that last post.)

2. Everyone is a potential mugger/rapist, unless you actually know them and trust them, and even then it is not 100%. We live in a dangerous world.

I am not saying women should not wear sexy clothing.

I am saying it is wise for women to take precautions to protect themselves from rape, at least until we live in a world where rapists don't exist.
 

cobra_ky

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old post but it bears a response:

RT-Medic-with-shotgun said:
So because you said we don't need to we shouldn't inform the person they did a foolish act? We should let them go on living in ignorance so it happens again? Should someone that dresses provocatively, behaves in such a manner, and gets raped by her date not be told she did somethign stupid?
Yes. That is absolutely correct. You should not tell a rape victim that she did something stupid.
 

Addendum_Forthcoming

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Feb 4, 2009
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Agayek said:
Okay, first off, there's two different "types", for lack of a better term, of rape cases. The first is an aggressive power struggle between the attacker and the victim, wherein the attacker is seeking to prove their own virility and dominance over another human being via sex. This is abhorrent, and is always the fault of the attacker. Every. Single. Time.
Glad we agree on something. Even if it is only common sense.

The second type is one more commonly found in colleges/frat houses and the like. This type is purely about the sex. It's usually assisted with some form of chemical, be it alcohol, rohypnol or whatever else you want to use. This instance is generally (and nowhere near always) one of shared blame.
And ... this is where similarities of opinions break down. No ... No .... No ... blame by common sense should not be the status quo, but one of the protection of ideals. There is no sharing of 'blame' ... someone put somthing in someone's drink ... sure someone should have known better, butyou're talking about someone who has merely done exactly as another from the above paragraph ...

With malicious aforethought and deliberate action has committed an atrocity.

Not only this but it is entirely culturally specific. Nobody, who goes to a pub watches every drink they drink ... if you're with a group of firends and someone yells "my shout!" you don't instantly refuse the beer because "oh, that drink left my sight so can't have that..."

Might be the 'common sense' (culturally mind you) thing to do, but it certainly isn't something you would do around your boss, and it's damn near rude to friends. You're still talking about a place where an aggressor with little regard for human dignity when met with a challenge for sexual conquest.

Also, where the fuck did all this cultural bullshit set in? I have never said, or implied, that there should be limits on what people want to do. All I'm saying is that there are some instances where the victim is indeed at fault. These instances are when the victim could have avoided the whole thing if they took sensible precautions. They shouldn't be punished or held accountable for being attacked, but the fact of the matter is, they did something stupid. Washing that away just because they were attacked doesn't help anyone.
As opposed to fear and paranoia on the sake that you're likely to be called stupid by the first police officer that picks you up right? And bull fucking shit it's in anyway the victim's fault. You're describing as if "Oh, I failed to see that car speeding past that red light before making my turn ... I'm partially at fault" ...

If I get mugged while wearing nice clothes in a bad neighborhood, I'm partially to blame, because I made myself a target while vulnerable. People, at their core, are animals, and they will take advantage of such vulnerability. All it takes is to take reasonable precautions and it's extremely unlikely you'll be a victim. And if you are unlucky enough to be a victim, you'll at least have the knowledge that you did everything you could.
Right, because ghettoization is a natural part of society. Heaven forbid if society and judicial services allowed for gentrification with the movement of people with money through poor neighbourhoods. That's kinda like opening up a store in a bad part of the city to promote jobs and then blaming the owner when it gets looted. And once again ... it's a purely social problem.

"You know you shouldn't have opened a store there ... you'll get no sympathies from us! You should have known better."

If people are actively mugging others then it requires social solutions ...

Besides, it's a moot point... it's nowhere comparable to mugging someone to feed themselves and a chronic psychological impairment that causes one to derive pleasure from sexually assaulting a person.

I call bullshit, a rapist is a rapist is a rapist. How a person dresses means as little to the reasons why they rape when compared to the profoundly foul and disgusting minds that allow them to do so without suicidal bouts of self-contempt that would afflict any sane, rational individual.

You're taking a mole hill (self expression) and turning it into a mountain (fuel for psychological instability) ... and the fact of the matter, as I said before, the places where women's sexual liberalization is most curtailed is the world's rape capitals by the very same people who espouse what you spout now.
 

Cadren

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Some links to bring to the discussion:

http://www.usu.edu/saavi/pdf/myths_facts.pdf
http://www.crisisconnectioninc.org/sexualassault/rapestatistics.htm
http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~ad361896/anne/cease/rapestatisticspage.html
http://www.paralumun.com/issuesrapestats.htm

Many people here seem to have incorrect ideas about how rape occurs in America. The majority of rape cases will be by someone known by the victim. Also, there is little statistical evidence to show that dressing provocatively increase chances of rape in any form. The idea that some one 'dressing like a slut' in a bar is more likely to be raped doesn't hold to the reality of rape in America- it seems to imply that being more attractive makes you more likely to be raped. This is simply not true. Old women, little kids, unattractive women, incredibly hot women- they are all victims of rape, with many statistics saying that around 50% of all rapes occur to women under the age of 18.

Dressing provocatively doesn't increase rate chances, so saying that it's dumb to dress provocatively because it increase your chances to be raped is simply wrong. The analogy of going into a crime ridden area with a ton of money in your hands increasing your chances of being robbed (or any similar analogy) doesn't hold.
 

OldGus

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AlkalineGamer said:
chowderface said:
Blaming the victim is basically the polite version of saying "I fully support the perpetrator."

I don't care what kind of excuses victim-blamers will make to tell me I'm wrong, and I'm looking at it too black-and-white, and it's not fair to make it a dichotomy like that, but you know what you fucking, you just don't. You just don't do that.

Rape especially. Something like assault you could almost get away with saying the victim deserved it if the victim was well known as a gigantic asshole but rape, no, never.
Oh how very 'black and white'.

A person who would rape is probably a bad person anyway.
The last thing they need is to be provoked.
If you covored yourself in bacon, then got mauled by an animal, then alot of the blame does rest with you.
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
Generic Gamer said:
RedEyesBlackGamer said:
That line of thinking is dangerous.
"You just shot that guy!"
"He was acting like a douchebag. He was asking for it."
Only if you're a deliberate idiot about it. Frankly it's been proven that rape is the fault of the perpetrator but in other cases yes, sometimes people get themselves into trouble. It's like walking into a road and expecting the cars to get out of the way.

Imagine if I walked up to you in a bar and told some guy I fucked his mother so hard I split her in half, he then understandably punches me. I am technically the victim of assault and battery...but by God I caused it!
I fail to see how wearing revealing clothing is walking by someone going "Molest me! You won't do it!".
I see the world very clearly now. Women who wear revealing clothing get raped, men who earn a lot of money get robbed, the way to a bear's heart is through bacon, people who bully others in school get shot, and someone who shoots someone else eventually wakes up to find themselves tied to the bed and slowly being flayed so they can be choked to death with a rope made from their own skin while they watch because why did you shoot me, Steve? why didn't you just put the gun down and walk away, Steve? just think, Steve, you could have prevented this if you hadjust walked away!
So, to sum up, Women should dress like men, people should spread the wealth, bears should be given more bacon, kids shouldn't bully each other, everyone should shoot to kill, and bad guys and bears should never mix because then they would become our bear-cavalry overlords and it would all be Steve's fault. I'm so glad we agree!

Ok, OT: There are some common sense things. I'm against violence, theft, and rape as much as the next human being, but there are some things you should avoid regardless. I'm not talking about wearing less revealing clothing though, I'm talking things like 1. For the love of all that is holy, PLEASE, have the common sense to travel in groups if you're in ANY way not confident of your safety. 2. Dark alleys with little access to the outside world = not safe. 3. Just having a stungun or a knife or mace doesn't make you safe. Drill yourself over and over so you're prepared to use it without hesitation. If this is beyond your ability and you're absolutely dead set on breaking rule 1 and/or 2, then maybe you should invest in one of those anti-rape traps that latches onto an offender's member with barbs that require surgical removal and injects a combination hallucinogenic neuro-toxin and muscle relaxant so you can call the police and report them while they lie on the ground trapped in nightmares and unable to move (ok, that last one may be a little extreme). If you don't follow any of these rules and end up getting raped, then the rape itself is still not your fault, but those rules are common sense for other things too, like mugging, theft, and violent crime of other natures. The only other common sense then is to potential rapists, namely being DON'T if for no other reason than so that innocent men don't get castrated.
 

Flare Phoenix

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cobra_ky said:
Flare Phoenix said:
cobra_ky said:
Agayek said:
The second type is one more commonly found in colleges/frat houses and the like. This type is purely about the sex. It's usually assisted with some form of chemical, be it alcohol, rohypnol or whatever else you want to use. This instance is generally (and nowhere near always) one of shared blame. Obviously most of it lies with the attacker, and they are the one who should be punished severely. That said, the victim is at least partially responsible.
Please explain to me how it can possibly be the victim's fault if they are drugged with rohypnol.
In the case of rohypnol no, but I believe is someone goes out, gets completely wasted, they should be held responsible for their actions. But if someone slips something into their drink, hell no.
ok. so if get completely wasted and somebody steals my wallet, i should be held responsible for my actions? what if i pass out drunk and someone kidnaps me and steals my kidney? i'm just trying to get a handle on the ground rules here.
If you actually bothered to read my post, I said a completely wasted person is responsible for THEIR actions. Which means, if you get completely wasted and agree to have sex with someone in your wasted state, you shouldn't be allowed to sober up and claim it was rape just because you did something you regret.

As for if someone steals your wallet or kidney, you aren't responsible for them doing it, but you sure as hell are responsible for lowering your defenses and making yourself an easy target.