Blaming the victim

[RelexCryo]

Of course dressing provocatively does not justify rape, the officer never said that. He said that dressing conservatively might prevent rape. It is obvious that rape is morally wrong and horrible to normal people, but rapists are not normal people. The perception that raping someone is justified by sexy clothing is an opinion held by rapists, who are horribly twisted individuals in the first place.

I am more concerned with people getting arrested for self defense. People were legally required- and still are in some areas- to run away when they get attacked instead of standing ground and defending themselves. People who stood their ground got arrested, and in some areas, still do. The problem with this is that your chances of survival are much lower if you run. Criminals generally choose to attack victims who cannot outrun them. On top of this, women are much slower than men. Drawing and aiming a gun at an attacker is much more likely to help you survive than running away.

 

[dementis]

I think a lot of people overestimate the decency of human beings on this forum.

 

[Craorach]

RelxaCryo, I'm curious where you get statistics for self defense being more effective than running.

I'm not saying that running is always a good idea, however in my experience people who are going to hurt someone else are almost always physically stronger.. in the case of muggings or street attacks them are also both prepared and accustomed to violence. While a weapon and the training and willingness to use it might help defense, in most cases it is going to end up being used against the person carrying it or stolen and used against someone else.

 

[alandavidson]

This idea that the victim is somehow to blame leads to dismissal of cases, non-reporting of crimes, and an overall idea that the people who commit these acts are untouchable.

1 in 4 women are victims of sexual assault.

1 in 6 men are victims of sexual assault.

None of them are to blame.

 

[Rayne870]

I am sorry, but the 2 are NOT the same. In Iceland where I live almost everyone gets drunk during the weekends and a very considerable portion of the sex that occurs during that time of the week is drunk sex. If you were to tell an Icelander that sleeping with a woman because she walked up to you drunk and asked for sex is abuse, then you would be laughed out of the room.

Granted that this probably varies from one culture to the other, but as far as I (and as far as I can tell, the overwhelming majority of Icelanders) am concerned, everything that happens after you are drunk is on YOU. The only exception I can think of at the top of my head is if the woman is so drunk that she is more asleep rather then awake in which case she can't really agree to have sex by her own will anymore then she could agree to anything else.

Seriously, the whole "its your fault for taking advantage of me" is just a shitty excuse for not wanting to take responsibility for anything that you do, something which appears to be a trend these days.

That is a really different culture than mine, I'm half impressed and half appalled.

Off topic: i just thought of the only instance that someone should ever blame a victim. And that is someone whom has their account "hacked" on WoW. I mean seriously how hard is it to not fall for phishing emails and have an authenticator?

 

[cobra_ky]

Consent should not be a complicated concept. If someone says "stop", you stop. If they physically resist (and not as part of a prearranged scenario), you stop. If they are unconscious or otherwise incoherent to the point that you can't tell whether or not they consent, you stop. If they consent but lie about it after the fact, then you simply tell the truth.

You're right, it should not be a complicated concept, for either side.

Stop is Stop, No is No.

Yes is Yes.

As it is now, it is possible for someone agree, and then to change their mind during.. or worse entirely after the fact... and have their "attacker" treated as if they went out and raped some random person in the street.

yes, they can change their mind during. if you're having sex with someone, and they change their mind and ask you stop, you pull out and stop. sucks, i know, but it's the lesser of two evils.

after the fact though, you're right; revoking consent isn't fair.

 

[Craorach]

Actually that is fairly on topic.. as its probably the biggest case of "blaming the victim" we see online.

And like any "Blame the Victim" scenario its entirely dependant upon the indivudual.

Person who buys wow gold/powerleveling/accounts = buyer of stolen goods complaining when the seller steals it from them again.

Person who should "know better".. computer savey experienced MMO and internet user = someone taking a dumb shortcut and getting attacked.

"Casual" Gamer who pretty much knows nothing about the internet's darker side = older person who lets someone with ID into their home to "read the meter" and they turn out to be fake.

 

[Blindswordmaster]

There's always some psychos out there. some people blame an 11-year-old girl for getting gang rapped, some people roll their shit into little balls, and some people are Nazis. You can't take these people seriously. Just use the 'chicken fucker' argument. When someone brings up an exceptionally radical minority, merely respond with this statement:"Yeah? Well some people like to fuck chickens." Works every time.

 

[Shadowsole]

the victim is never to blame.

but dressing slutty will put you more at risk. the rapist is still 100% to blame but the reason the victim was chosen may have been affected by the clothing she (or he) wears.

the victim is at no fault for causing the rape, but may have affected their chances of being a rape victim.
unfortuanley dressing 'slutty' can be a risk. it shouldn't be but it is

 

[Cadren]

I just want to raise up a point real quick.


In the story about the girl from texas...

It says it wasnt the first time she was sexually assaulted, and that it had happend a few other times during the last year.


Now, Im not sure about anyone else, but if you get snapped by a mouse-trap the first time, chances are you wouldnt put your hand back in it again.


I mean, no offense, but I havent ever heard of anyone until reading that story, of ever being a victim of multiple sexual assaults... during a single year.

This is not actually that uncommon. Most rapes happen from a person the victim knows and are not reported- so the ability to happen again is likely. For example, I work with a handicapped girl (cerebral palsy) who at her previous job was raped by her old boss multiple times- she never reported it because she thought she would be fired and was ashamed of the ordeal.

 

[Craorach]

yes, they can change their mind during. if you're having sex with someone, and they change their mind and ask you stop, you pull out and stop. sucks, i know, but it's the lesser of two evils.

after the fact though, you're right; revoking consent isn't fair.

Of course you stop... but also, the "victim" doesn't get to go "I said stop twice, he didn't stop till the second time so he raped me" or.. and I'm trying to not get to explicit here... lets face it many guys don't last long and waiting till the last moment to change your mind and tell the drunken guy to stop isn't likely a good idea or fair to them.

See, it gets incredibly messy when you're talking about people changing their mind during the act itself. When you agree to do something and then change your mind later its hardly fair to bring the other party up on criminal charges that will haunt them for life.

 

[DrOswald]

Has nothing to do with the comment, really. It's almost as if you never read my post. I was just pointing out that sexy clothes attract attention to a woman's body.

And ... rape has nothing to do with clothes ... so why even bring it up in the first place?

Was it just a comment? Aye ... there are various articles of clothing that quite rightly are form fitted for men and women. Doesn't change the fact that where women are expected to dress head to toe in bedsheets are the same places where rape is most likely to occur.

In fact there's good argument that a society's perseverance to free women from such social bonds decreases rape. because people learn to appreciate that expression and artistic licence from convention is one way a society improves itself.

So what point we're you trying to make? I am lost...

I never said that muggers and rapists are similarly motivated, or that rapists are always muggers or such. Only that anyone could be a potential rapist OR mugger. Be it a close friend, trusted mentor, or a complete stranger.

No ... they aren't. you're assuming everyone has the capacity to mug someone or be a rapist (or presumeably both)...

No ... they aren't.

Well, I don't suggest hiding in your house cowering in fear or never expressing yourself, and the victim should never be judged for such violence committed against them. I am simply against rape, and I want to help people prevent being victims of such a horrible crime. And I think it is possible to take basic steps to prevent becoming a victim without a significant negative effect to their life. It is simple really.

Such as? Dressing as a penguin? Or what? What 'simple steps' is there?

Everyone carrying guns? Because that wasn't true in my own living experience when they had (fairly) unrestrictive gun laws in Australia.

Everybody being taught kung fu in schools? well given that everybody would know kung fu, kinda makes it a moot pooint really ... because then you're merely training people sufficiently vile and violent enough to rape and that they then have to be far more violent and horrible to potential victims if every person can kick and punch like Bruce Lee.

If you don't want to get hit by a car, don't play in the highway. If you don't want to be mugged, don't flash $100 bills while in an area known for violent crime.

Right, because playing in the street is totally the same as wearing something sexy to go clubbing...

Even if clothes and cosmetics were part of the equation, sorry, rather tear down society then have dickheads tell me how to dress.

And if you don't want to get raped, don't make yourself excessively vulnerable to rapists. None of these precautions will prevent all such tragedies, but they can help reduce the risk.

How so? In what way am I vulnerable?

The only 'vulnerable nature of women' I'm sensing is allowing women to feel as if there is merit in people like you telling them how exactly to look and act, and I thought we got over this type of shit 60 years ago.

I think I may not have been be clear enough. Let me summarize the points I am trying to make:

1. Not everyone is capable of being a rapist, but you cannot tell the difference between a rapist and a normal individual with 100% certainty.

2. Certain basic protective measures can be taken to reduce the risk of being raped without serious inconvenience.

3. I believe it is wise to take preventative measure against rape.

I have previously linked 2 documents outlining some ways to reduce the risk of rape. I will again link them for your convenience. (If anyone knows of a federally approved rape prevention document, I would appreciate the link)

http://cityofdavis.org/police/investigations/rapeprev.cfm
http://www.kevincoffee.com/women_safety/rape_prevention_tips.htm

 

[Agayek]

Please explain to me how it can possibly be the victim's fault if they are drugged with rohypnol.

Alright, random scenario time:

Person A, let's call her Sally, is at a big party (meaning more people than she is readily familiar with). At this party, they are serving beer in those little red cups. Sally has to go somewhere. She sets her drink down on a table in the middle of the room and walks off. Person B, let's call him Ted, walks up and drops a roofy in the cup. Sally comes back and drinks it. Ted comes by and takes advantage.

Ted is clearly a complete fuckbag and deserves castration via weedwhacker. I think we all agree on that.

Sally on the other hand is an idiot. She's the victim yes, but that doesn't make it any less stupid.

Common sense dictates that one would either keep their cup with them or find a new cup. She did neither. Thus, she acted stupidly.

-snip-

You're taking what I'm saying and twisting it.

THERE IS NO BLAME TO BE HAD ON THE VICTIM FOR BEING ATTACKED. THERE NEVER HAS BEEN AND NEVER WILL BE.

In certain situations, however, there is fault to be had by the victim for acting stupidly. Exposing oneself to situations where bad things can happen is a dumb idea. The fact that they are in a situation where they can be taken advantage of is their fault. It is by no means every instance, stop trying to portray it as otherwise.

People have a responsibility, nay an obligation, to act sensibly. If they cannot do so, it's no one else's fault that they've acted like an idiot. It's terrible for people to take advantage of said stupidity, and any attackers should rightly be punished to the fullest extent humanly possible, but that doesn't change the fact that the victim acted foolishly in the first place and could have avoided the scenario relatively easily.

Long story short, anyone who can feasibly envision a rape scenario they perpetrate should be shot. Stupid people should also be shot.

 

[cobra_ky]

yes, they can change their mind during. if you're having sex with someone, and they change their mind and ask you stop, you pull out and stop. sucks, i know, but it's the lesser of two evils.

after the fact though, you're right; revoking consent isn't fair.

Of course you stop... but also, the "victim" doesn't get to go "I said stop twice, he didn't stop till the second time so he raped me" or.. and I'm trying to not get to explicit here... lets face it many guys don't last long and waiting till the last moment to change your mind and tell the drunken guy to stop isn't likely a good idea or fair to them.

See, it gets incredibly messy when you're talking about people changing their mind during the act itself. When you agree to do something and then change your mind later its hardly fair to bring the other party up on criminal charges that will haunt them for life.

yeah, obviously you need a little bit of time to react. the point is that if she changes her mind and says no, you can't say "Sorry, too late" and keep going.

 

[Korolev]

The criminal is solely responsible for the crime, no matter which way you look at it. Even if a woman ran stark naked in the street, you don't have a right to rape them. As a human being, you SHOULD be able to resist urges. If you can't resist urges..... well, I don't know what to tell you.... I guess you're an animal, because animals can't resist urges. Monkeys can't resist urges. Chimps can't resist urges. As human beings, we SHOULD be able to RISE ABOVE OUR NATURE and resist urges. So even if a woman is very attractive, you SHOULD be able to resist your urges, because that's what civilized, intelligent beings should be able to do.

Having said that - it is not wise to get drunk and wear loose clothing at night. If you get raped, it isn't your fault, but it was a silly move to make.

Let me put it this way: If I went to Afghanistan and wore a shirt that said "I LOVE GEORGE BUSH" in both Arabic and English, whilst carrying and waving a gigantic US Flag, while also carrying a radio blaring out "Stars and Stripes Forever", what do you think would happen to me? I would probably be killed or kidnapped-then-killed. It would still be a crime if I WAS killed or kidnapped, and it wouldn't justify them murdering me, but it would have been a STUPID thing for me to do.

Likewise - if a woman goes out alone, very late at night, to a bad part of town, wearing very revealing clothes, and then tries to walk home at night.... it's NOT A VERY SMART THING TO DO. It DOESN'T justify the attack - NOTHING justifies the rapist's actions - but it's still not a terribly bright idea to leave yourself vulnerable.

So to sum up - rape is never justified, but certain actions and behaviours, which in NO WAY justify rape, RAISE your chances of BEING raped, and it's pretty damn stupid to engage in those behaviours. NO ONE deserves to be raped, EVER - BUT people should be intelligent enough to avoid risky places. Rapists exist - that's a fact of life. Rapists are scum, they're awful, awful people - but they exist and they always will, sadly. So.... don't raise the risk of being raped. That's all I'm saying. If you go out alone and night and get drunk, realize, PLEASE, that you are raising the risk of being targeted. It doesn't justify what's done to you, but it was mighty foolish to do it.

 

[Acting like a FOOL]

Oh how very 'black and white'.

A person who would rape is probably a bad person anyway.
The last thing they need is to be provoked.
If you covored yourself in bacon, then got mauled by an animal, then alot of the blame does rest with you.

Sure, yeah, prancing around in front of a bear wearing a bacon onesie is not going to be the smartest idea, no, but the key point is that bears are animals, and we are not.

No, you know what? Let's roll with this.

So "bad people" are now just a type of animal. They can't be held responsible for their actions, and their victims should all have known better than to provoke the dangerous animal. But there's really no difference between a "good person" and a "bad person" aside from their actions. So we can't really hold the victims responsible for their actions either, because they're just animals as well, doing the things THEY'RE inclined to do anyway. So rape, murder, all that, it's no one's fault, really, it's just a bunch of animals doing what animals do. Congratulations! You've just reduced all crime to a form of natural selection. Aren't you proud of yourself?

That might actually go under the entire human experience,darling.
given the circumstances of our existence.

 

[bushwhacker2k]

Blaming the victim is basically the polite version of saying "I fully support the perpetrator."

I don't care what kind of excuses victim-blamers will make to tell me I'm wrong, and I'm looking at it too black-and-white, and it's not fair to make it a dichotomy like that, but you know what you fucking, you just don't. You just don't do that.

Rape especially. Something like assault you could almost get away with saying the victim deserved it if the victim was well known as a gigantic asshole but rape, no, never.

Oh how very 'black and white'.

A person who would rape is probably a bad person anyway.
The last thing they need is to be provoked.
If you covored yourself in bacon, then got mauled by an animal, then alot of the blame does rest with you.

Well, I'd like to think most people have a bit more self-control than a hungry animal who doesn't really view hurting humans as a moralistic offense

If we're talking falsely-accusing or some odd situation where the victim leads them on and then is suddenly prudish (I'm trying to think of situations where I wouldn't be totally against the aggressor) then I can see why the victim might be blamed somewhat, but most of the time it really does seem black and white.