Book vs Show question for Game of Thrones (Spoilers, duh)

[happyninja42]

Ok so, someone who has actually read the novels more recently than myself (namely less than a decade ago), please clarify something for me.

Tyrion and Shae. I vaguely recall their relationship in the book, but it's pretty fuzzy. In the show, it seems to come across that she was always actually on the pay to basically appease Tyrion, but that she was more than willing to switch sides because she never had affection for him. Even though they took effort at other parts to show she did seem to have some affection for him. But during the episode of his trial, and the following murder bit of her, she seemed to be very mercenary with her behavior. She didn't try and talk to Tyrion, she didn't seem at all happy to learn that he wasn't executed, and instead went straight to trying to fight him, but ultimately losing the fight.

How did it play out in the book? I don't remember at all. Did they elaborate at all? Was it like that? Or was it more nebulous? I just really can't remember, it's been so long since I read those, and I'll be fracked sideways if I'm going to read through those damn things again.

Thanks.

Edit:

Got my answer, thanks.

 

[Glongpre]

They tried to give Shae much more than what was given in the book.

My memory isn't the best on this either, but I believe she was only with him because of the money. We never get her POV so we can't really say what her thinking was. She seemed to just be there for the extravagance. At least, that is what I got out of her character.

 

[Terminal Blue]

Basically, in the books it is kind of obvious to everyone but Tyrion that Shae is just using him. In fact, even Tyrion himself is consciously aware of it, but is so lonely and pathetic that he basically forces himself to ignore it. There's one scene where Tyrion basically tries to tell her he loves her and that he worries for her safety (I can't remember the precise context) and she seems to have this little pang of guilt or concern, but it's not clear whether that's genuine or just confusion on her part as to why he's showing affection to her.

The most revealing point in Shae's arc in the books, I think, comes when Tyrion disguises her as a maid to Lollys Stokeworth (in the TV show it's Sansa instead). Lollys was gang raped in the previous book, and is now pregnant. Shae basically finds Lollys really annoying and doesn't understand why she's upset because "they only fucked her". So yeah, basically for Shae there is literally no difference between sex and rape.

That's why I think Shae is one of the areas in which book fans have it completely right. The books give her relationship with Tyrion less development, but they also make it clear that women like Shae are the products of a truly, truly horrible world in which there's no room for genuine love or affection. In the TV show, I think they tried to make Shae more sympathetic and give her more development, but the result actually ends up being.. weirdly misogynist. It's like, "women gonna' say they love you, but in the end they just gonna' betray you and screw your dad because that's just what bitches are like, amirite fellas?"

Book Tyrion is also.. kind of a horrible person, particularly when it comes to how he treats women. Which I'm guessing they toned down for the TV show because they wanted him to be a more likeable character.

 

[K12]

The Tyrion and Shae relationship kind of gives you enough room to interpret her as a selfish money-grabber social-climbing wannabe who uses a naive love-starved Tyrion for her own ends before discarding him as soon as it suits her OR she developed some genuine affection for him whilst in his service and naively wanted to make a comfortable life as his Lady and she felt personally betrayed by his implicit refusal to acknowledge her. She then betryas her and lashs out because she's an idiot.

The book leans far harder on the first option and the show leans harder on the second option. The differences in the books are the little things. Shae being really sweet or seductive followed by putting on pressure to get more stuff or move herself into a better position. No scenes where she struggles with feeling like she's only Tyrion's whore. No scenes of her showing a protectiveness of Sansa or Tyrion. And importantly no scene where Tyrion dismisses her and says she's (just a whore) to make sure she'll leave for her own safety and she doesn't turn to Tyrion and say "I was just your whore" during her testimony

I prefer the book version because I like that Tyrion has a huge intellectual blind spot (this sweetness cancels out his slightly darker edge in the book). Book Shae is a great example of a non-violent character who has been made to be just as heartless and ruthless as lots of other characters but in a very different way. She's lived life as a whore being used and neglected and she.

I really wanted to believe the best about Shae in the book right up until the point when that became essentially impossible. The trial scene in the TV show made me think she was an idiot, the scene in the book made me feel that I was an idiot for giving her the benefit of the doubt the whole damn time. That second feeling gels with the overall theme of the story better.

 

[FirstNameLastName]

...

Book Tyrion is also.. kind of a horrible person, particularly when it comes to how he treats women. Which I'm guessing they toned down for the TV show because they wanted him to be a more likeable character.

Definitely. They kind of made him into a lovable genius who speaks almost exclusively in quips. Although, to be fair, pretty much every character in the show throws around quips like it's going out of style.

The Tyrion and Shae relationship kind of gives you enough room to interpret her as a selfish money-grabber social-climbing wannabe who uses a naive love-starved Tyrion for her own ends before discarding him as soon as it suits her OR she developed some genuine affection for him whilst in his service and naively wanted to make a comfortable life as his Lady and she felt personally betrayed by his implicit refusal to acknowledge her. She then betryas her and lashs out because she's an idiot.

The book leans far harder on the second option and the show leans harder on the first option. The differences in the books are the little things. Shae being really sweet or seductive followed by putting on pressure to get more stuff or move herself into a better position. No scenes where she struggles with feeling like she's only Tyrion's whore. No scenes of her showing a protectiveness of Sansa or Tyrion. And importantly no scene where Tyrion dismisses her and says she's (just a whore) to make sure she'll leave for her own safety and she doesn't turn to Tyrion and say "I was just your whore" during her testimony
...

I think you've got them backwards.

 

[Reiper]

I can't stand how they try to change certain characters to make them more or less sympathetic to suit the warped vision of D&D

Cersei: She's a crazy evil ***** in the book, but I hate how they try to make her more sympathetic to the audience for the show. It tries to hard to portray her as a "caring mother" because they think it makes a more compelling character

Example - When the gold cloaks start killing Roberts bastards, they make it so that Joffrey gave the order and the queen can't control him. In the book, Cersei gave the order


Stannis: Where do I even start on Stannis? To be honest I am not sure, and I absolutely hate how he is portrayed, as it is markedly different from the book. In the book, he is portrayed as borderline atheist, in the show, he is becoming a religious fanatic. In the book, he never performs a single action that I consider morally unjustifiable. For example, in the book he burns the Florent guy because he betrayed him to the Lannisters, in the show, he burns him because he is an "infidel". In the book, Stannis realizes that Davos was right about his Nephew, and he was glad he didn't make a horrible mistake, in the show, he is a sullen ***** that would do it again.

Honestly, this is only scatching the surface, but the Stannis changes piss me off the most. AND do not even get me started on his daughter and the siege of winterfel

They somehow managed to make the most just man in westeros less likeable than
Tywin: A man who uses rape as a punishment
Cersei: Nuff said
Ramsay: Hell, they even made him less likable than this asshole and his 20 good men

screw you D&D!

 

[K12]

snip

I think you've got them backwards.

Yeah i did thanks for pointing that out.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Ok so, someone who has actually read the novels more recently than myself (namely less than a decade ago), please clarify something for me.

Tyrion and Shae. I vaguely recall their relationship in the book, but it's pretty fuzzy. In the show, it seems to come across that she was always actually on the pay to basically appease Tyrion, but that she was more than willing to switch sides because she never had affection for him. Even though they took effort at other parts to show she did seem to have some affection for him. But during the episode of his trial, and the following murder bit of her, she seemed to be very mercenary with her behavior. She didn't try and talk to Tyrion, she didn't seem at all happy to learn that he wasn't executed, and instead went straight to trying to fight him, but ultimately losing the fight.

How did it play out in the book? I don't remember at all. Did they elaborate at all? Was it like that? Or was it more nebulous? I just really can't remember, it's been so long since I read those, and I'll be fracked sideways if I'm going to read through those damn things again.

Thanks.

As others have said, Book Shae is a canny prostitute who uses Tyrion's affection as a ladder for social advancement and material comfort. When his circumstances turn and he loses his power/position, she turns on him quickly...both out of avarice and necessity. Tyrion has moments of clarity about Shae's nature and the actual tenor of their relationship, but more frequently allows himself to fall into a delusional fog where he imagines it is love. Tyrion's insistence on buying affection (Shae, Bronn, the Hill Men) rather than accepting affection freely given (most prominently with Penny) is one of his most compelling character flaws, and the primary engine of his downfall between books 2-5. The show has vigorously white washed most if not all of Tyrion's flaws and nuances, turning him into an ambulatory quip, and also made an ill advised attempt to age-up and humanize Shae, and make it seem as if the affection between them was genuine so that her eventual betrayal would sting more. Rather than stinging more, it made her character seem bizarrely capricious and her motivations poorly explained, and placed Tyrion as the unfortunate victim of a woman's fickle loyalties...rather than falling victim to his own shortcomings. That's a common theme with Martin...Tyrion is undone by his desperate need to feel wanted/loved, Cersei by her vanity, Ned Stark by the rigidity of his "honor", etc. etc. I could go on to even more prominent examples, but I don't know how far along you are and don't want to be the shit head who spoils things.

TLDR - The show runners might be fans of the books, but they don't really understand them, which should be viewed as troubling because they're not particularly hard to understand. They make "small changes" that have huge narrative consequences because they believe they make things "more exciting", and the eventual result has been the equivalent of someone slowly pulling threads from a blanket over a number of years. It's a fucking mess, now.

 

[Glongpre]

Book Tyrion is also.. kind of a horrible person, particularly when it comes to how he treats women. Which I'm guessing they toned down for the TV show because they wanted him to be a more likeable character.

I never found him to be particularly horrible. My memory is fuzzy, what exactly makes him horrible and especially to women?

I remember him being nice to women, and fairly kind overall.

 

[Jute88]

Book Shae was a prostitute. The readers knew it, Tyrion knew it, everyone knew it. But she gave Tyrion a pleasant illusion that he had a woman who actually loved him.

And what little I've seen of the show, Shae was the wrong character to give more, um, character.

 

[Jute88]

TLDR - The show runners might be fans of the books, but they don't really understand them, which should be viewed as troubling because they're not particularly hard to understand. They make "small changes" that have huge narrative consequences because they believe they make things "more exciting", and the eventual result has been the equivalent of someone slowly pulling threads from a blanket over a number of years. It's a fucking mess, now.

Took the words from my mouth. Hell, I stopped watching season 2 when that battlefield nurse was complaining to the king how his men were dying because of him. It just didn't sit well with the whole medieval Europe resembling world that nurse yammers on about human rights and the flaws of feodal society.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Took the words from my mouth. Hell, I stopped watching season 2 when that battlefield nurse was complaining to the king how his men were dying because of him. It just didn't sit well with the whole medieval Europe resembling world that nurse yammers on about human rights and the flaws of feodal society.

Can you imagine some sassy 'battlefield nurse" dressing down Roose Bolton, or Tywin Lannister, about the ethics of war and feudalism?

"Talissa" was a fucking ridiculous invention. Complete anachronism. Turns Robb from tragically noble to daft, diminishes the role of Tywin in his downfall, and stands out like a sore thumb. At the time she was the biggest transgression from book to screen, but as it turns out she was just a warning shot for what was to come.

 

[Jute88]

Can you imagine some sassy 'battlefield nurse" dressing down Roose Bolton, or Tywin Lannister, about the ethics of war and feudalism?

"Talissa" was a fucking ridiculous invention. Complete anachronism. Turns Robb from tragically noble to daft, diminishes the role of Tywin in his downfall, and stands out like a sore thumb. At the time she was the biggest transgression from book to screen, but as it turns out she was just a warning shot for what was to come.

Actually Nurse vs Tywin sounds frickin' amazing. Mortal Kombat!

From what I could tell (from episodes here and there) is that show didn't understand the meaning of subtlety.

"Oh, you didn't know ***** was gay? Here, have a wrestling scene with him and *****, you're welcome! Did you know that Westeros' biggest source of income is prostitution? too subtle? Nude scene #503!"

And Cersei giving the High Sparrow more and more power when Cersei's whole backstory screams that she wants all that power to herself.

Sorry, started ranting. Didn't know I had so much bottled up in me.

 

[Azure-Supernova]

From what I could tell (from episodes here and there) is that show didn't understand the meaning of subtlety.

This has been the downfall of the show since day one. As someone who watched the first two seasons, then backtracked to the books it's totally obvious that the minds behind the show didn't think their audience would 'get' the subtlety of so many scenes and characters. Nowhere is this more evident than in the total assassination of Robb's character by replacing Jeyne with Talisa and the rounded edges of Tyrion and Shae's relationship.

 

[WolfThomas]

In the book the chapters are all from that characters POV. This means they're inherently biased, not an objective universal narrator like in some books. Often this bias plays into misdirection, what one character thinks isn't necessarily true. However in adapting this to TV, I think the writers missed this...alot.

A key point about Tyrion, is sure he is smart, but he isn't as smart as he thinks he is in his POV. He fucks up a lot. His entire tenure as hand is actually one huge mistake after each other, but he doesn't see it as that. Hence we get super competent Tyrion in the show. By mistakes I mean ostracising his allies, Cersei, Joffrey, Pycelle and Slynt. Allowing Varys and Littlefinger to grow in power and influence. His entire defense of the blackwater only buys him 12hrs against Stannis' fleet and army.

He is also not a good person. He has a minstrel murdered and turned into soup for finding out about Shae. But he justifies it as protecting his love.

The same goes for King Stannis. He comes off as a huge dick in Cressen's POV, it's heartbreaking for the old guy, but in reality Stannis has been foretold of the Maester's death and is clearly trying to stop the future. He even outright tells him "I will not have you die in my service". But read it without that hindsight and boom you have TV show Stannis.

 

[Breakdown]

I think the problem with Tyrion was that he'd always think in terms of goals - protect King's Landing, protect his family, get rid of incompetent of corrupt subordinates and so on. He'd generally achieve his goals, so in that sense he was a good Hand, but he wouldn't personally gain anything in the process while making enemies at every turn.

 

[WolfThomas]

I'd argue for Tyrion, his job was basically to prevent the capital from being conquered which he succeeded quite well all things considered.

And in general none of the rulers are (or can be) good guys and good rulers in the same time (and that's one of the themes), Tyrion is just miles above his sister and father in morality. And Stannis is pretty much the only king which worth a damn in the series.

How can I argue with someone who says such nice things about King Stannis?

So right now I'm solely speaking about Tyrion in the book. Show Tyrion's plot with the wildfire was smart. It wiped out a huge portion of Stannis' fleet and he was only attacking by sea.

Tyrion's preparation

Tyrion's preparation in the book goes like this. He finds Cersei and Joffrey have ordered the smiths to make more weapons, armor and arrows for men they're training to help defend Kingslanding. They are also planning to build more trebuchets and fling wild fire by hand at the attackers. This is a pretty conventional plan. Anyone would do this.

Tyrion derails this by tying up all of the smiths into making a chain. He then sends away 300 lannister men at arms that are Cersei's personal guard in a harebrained rescue mission to get Jaime (it fails). These men sit the war out as prisoners when they could have fought on the Blackwater and trained men to fight in the months ahead. He also sends away a number of naval ships to escort Myrella to Dorne. Including the largest ship in the fleet "King Robert's Warhammer" a 400 oar giant (Stannis's flag ship Fury is 300 oar, there are a handful of 200oars ships, but the rest of the navy are smaller 100oar galleys).

He does one thing right and releases his Mountain Men into the Kingswood to harass Stannis.

The Battle

In the book Stannis took 16,000 men all mounted by land up the Rose Road and sent 5000 fighting men (and countless sailors/oarsmen etc) by 200 ships to attack by sea. The ships are delayed by bad weather for up to 10days. This army is camped on the opposite bank of the Blackwater to Kingslanding. In the meantime Stannis has been building rafts.

When they arrive the battle is started in the morning. The ships fight a brutal but decisive battle against the small fleet the Lannisters have (about 50ships). Then a number of floating hulk are sailed into the navy. The Wildfire ignited and the chain drawn. A dozen or more ships are upriver of the Wildfire and spared, these drop fighting men onto the shore of Kingslanding. The Hound leads sorties against them. A number of ships including the Pirate Salladhor Saan are safe being kept in reserve behind the chain.

Stannis brings his land army up. His men use the intact ships upriver, the rafts he has built and some men use the burning hulking of his fleet that have formed a bridge (talk about badassery) to cross to the other shore. More sorties are lead against them. At some point the Hound breaks and flees the field. Lancel is wounded. As Stannis' men form up on the shore Joffrey leaves to hide in the Redkeep. Tyrion gathers his men and leads a sortie. It successfully drives back some of Stannis' men.

But Tyrion and his men are scattered. Mandon Moore tries to kill Tyrion, gravely wounding him. Podrick Payne kills moore. Tyrion is lying in the mud bleeding out as the sun sets, as Stannis' men overrun the shores of Kingslanding (he has about 8000 men at this point on one bank and the rest on the other).

Suddenly trumpets hail and a new host lead by "Renly's Ghost" (actually Garlan Tyrell) Tywin Lannister, Randyl Tarly, etc arrive. The mountain men having killed Stannis' scouts. There is some fighting but a large number of men surrender or turn coat. The Bastard of Nightsong leads a fighting retreat that allows Stannis and his men to evacuate with Salladhor Saan's ships. However there is only enough room for about a 1000 to escape.

Conclusion
Tyrion's grand plan of the Wildfire only cripples Stannis fleet. It doesn't affect his land army.

He wastes time and resources that could be devoted to more conventional tactics.

For all his cleverness he only manages to hold Kingslanding for about 12hrs, dawn to dusk. Had Stannis's fleet not been delayed by a storm he wound be holding Kingslanding for 10days before Tywin arrived with the Tyrells.

Now I'm not saying Cersei or Joffrey would have done better. Rather that Tyrion really doesn't achieve anything spectacular. The biggest damage he does to Stannis is preventing him from retreating with more men, which is a pretty big thing. But it doesn't help him hold Kingslanding in the first place.

Dear me I've written way too much...

 

[Silvanus]

Tyrion's preparation in the book goes like this. He finds Cersei and Joffrey have ordered the smiths to make more weapons, armor and arrows for men they're training to help defend Kingslanding. They are also planning to build more trebuchets and fling wild fire by hand at the attackers. This is a pretty conventional plan. Anyone would do this.

It's conventional, but it's also a pretty poor plan of action. Hitting a moving target coming from an unknown direction with a Trebuchet would be absurdly difficult to do reliably; that's not such a worry if you're flinging rocks, but it matters if you're flinging valuable Wildfire, which you don't have an inexhaustible stock of.