Bradley manning, hero or villian?

[Jacco]

Manning had good intentions but he fucked any goodwill I may have had toward him by giving it all to Wikileaks. There were far better ways to expose what he wanted to without letting Wikileaks publish everything. A lot of people we will never know about died because of what he did. It would have been far better to give it to a reputable news source.

Apparently he tried a couple of newspapers but nothing more than that. Wikileaks was the worst possible outlet he could have used.

 

[Zakarath]

I'd say he was in the wrong. He wasn't exposing any particular government wrongdoing, he just took secret files/diplomatic cables en mass and uploaded them to the internet. Stuff that was secret not because it was illegal, but because much of it were things like internal assessments of foreign nations, which could be politically damaging if released, or might reveal troop deployments or travel schedules of ambassadors, which could endanger lives. I see nothing wrong with him being charged with espionage for that.

 

[Jacco]

He was tortured by the US government, that alone should make him a hero for doing what he believed in.

As for the leaked information, some of it probably didn't need to be released and was just a bunch of gossip, but there was a very strong public interest to publish cables suggesting political corruption, and the Collateral Murder video. The Army had previously denied the existence of the footage when asked for it by Reuters, so it's not like they're innocent. The risk of someone in the military getting hurt seems to have been well-balanced as well, there's no serious cases I know of that can be definitively down to leaked information.

Also slightly off-topic, but fuck the US government. With all the shit they've been pulling recently I genuinely believe they have the most negative influence on the world out of anyone.

Where do you get that he was tortured?

And the US government isn't doing anything more or less than any other government in the world. They are just the biggest and so more eyes are constantly on them.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Villian. He signed up and knew what he did was a crime. He cant complain, its the Army and knew the information he stole was sensitive and not be allowed to be seen by the public. Regardless of his intent, doesn't matter. I used to work with the police for 2.5 years and the information i had access to would have gotten me arrested if i made it public. Doesnt matter whether that information was secret....just the fact that you stole it is enough. Same as if you stole 1p from a till, you will still be stealing, regardless of the amount of money it was.

 

[Callate]

I haven't read all of the information Manning is alleged to have leaked, so I don't feel I can remark in anything like complete certainty on whether any of the information he disclosed may have put others in jeopardy or risked compromising long-term operations.

What I will say, from what I have seen, is that it seems apparent his actions were ones he felt he had to make as a matter of conscience; that at least some of the information brought to light regards truly despicable actions for which others ought to be held accountable, and that the espionage charges brought against him seem disturbingly inapt. While not strictly defined as such, the term "espionage" seems to imply passing of information to interested parties either for material gain or to the benefit of an enemy or foreign power; it's clear Manning's intent was neither.

I also find the "such conduct being prejudicial to good order and discipline in the armed forces and being of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces" part of many of his charges disturbing, as it amounts to admitting that true accounts of the deeds of members of the armed forces are harmful to morale and discrediting to the service. That seems like good cause to shape up, not cover up.

I fear that the government's case against Manning- and for that matter, Snowden- is as much about sending a message to potential whistle-blowers as it is about their actual activities. By and large, I get the impression that the leaks are less about enemies of the state getting hold of the information as citizens of the state doing so. There are always going to be secrets, but I'd like to live in a country that wasn't so damned afraid of its own people knowing the truth.

 

[Jodah]

it was reckless, immoral, and most likely ended up getting some of those who worked with NATO killed. I have no sympathy for him in regards to his conviction or punishment.

This is in clear contrast to the collateral murder video, where US forces opened fire on civilians and their rescuers, and definitely killed them. You're right, he's such a bad guy (reckless AND immoral) for exposing that to the world.

1. The transcript of the pilots' communications was already released long before the video was released. He exposed exactly squat.
2. Military personnel were under attack in the area when the call was given for air support. Upon arrival the civilians were in the vicinity of the reported enemy fire, carrying news equipment that can easily be mistaken for weapons.
3. The pilots were given direct orders from air command to open fire.
4. The journalists embedded in that area were not wearing the correct safety indicators which are designed to prevent just such an incident.

Am I saddened that civilians were killed? Certainly, but this is not a case of "lol brown people to shoot" that is often portrayed.

OT: Manning got what he deserved. He did not intend to help the enemy, so he was not convicted of such, but his actions were reckless and unnecessary.

Furthermore, this:

Manning had good intentions but he fucked any goodwill I may have had toward him by giving it all to Wikileaks. There were far better ways to expose what he wanted to without letting Wikileaks publish everything. A lot of people we will never know about died because of what he did. It would have been far better to give it to a reputable news source.

Apparently he tried a couple of newspapers but nothing more than that. Wikileaks was the worst possible outlet he could have used.

 

[Zakarath]

it was reckless, immoral, and most likely ended up getting some of those who worked with NATO killed. I have no sympathy for him in regards to his conviction or punishment.

This is in clear contrast to the collateral murder video, where US forces opened fire on civilians and their rescuers, and definitely killed them. You're right, he's such a bad guy (reckless AND immoral) for exposing that to the world.

I don't believe bradley manning was behind that particular leak; I think what he did was upload a significant amount of US Diplomatic cables.

Even if he was, that incident was already known even before the video was released; and unfortunately, collateral damage and friendly fire are regrettable but hardly unheard of.

 

[frizzlebyte]

Is my understanding correct that this is similar to the Pentagon Papers thing that exposed the cluster that was the Vietnam War? If so, then the following applies...

I think he did what he felt he needed to do, which is all you can ask anyone to do under those circumstances, and I think we are better off knowing about the atrocities, even if some information collateral to that got leaked that shouldn't have.

Was it against regulations for him to leak it? Yes, plain and simple.

Was it wrong? Nope, but a lot of people don't see it that way, and I don't think it is horrible that he got prosecuted for it. He knew the risks going in, and stood up to pay the price for exposing something he felt needed to be exposed. That's bravery beyond anything.

And no, I don't think he is a traitor at all. That's too ridiculous for words. If anything he exemplifies what i consider to be a good soldier.

 

[WindKnight]

Im going to go with neither. If anything, he is a reckless idiot who endangered many people (although probably unintentionally), but I don't think he is "evil." He did what he believed was right. I can respect the intentions, but not the actions he took.

Im going to go with neither. If anything, he is a reckless idiot who endangered many people (although probably unintentionally), but I don't think he is "evil." He did what he believed was right. I can respect the intentions, but not the actions he took.

I don;t think anything he leaked put anyone in danger, just embarrassed a few people who really should have known better than to to what caused said embarrassment.

 

[nathan-dts]

Dude's a hero. He knew he'd get treated the way he did, yet he released the documents anyway, because people should know how their government and armed forces are behaving. Those pilots and the other soldiers that were committing atrocities are the ones that should be on trial.

 

[Reeve]

Pfft, people in this thread condemning Manning because he broke some military oath or other. Look: Sometimes the moral obligation to do the right thing surpasses everything else. Haven't you considered the influences Manning's actions had in relation the Arab Spring? You don't think he helped catalyse those events?

 

[wulf3n]

A lot of people we will never know about died because of what he did.

That is a ridiculous statement, that saps away any credibility your argument may or may not have had.

 

[fix-the-spade]

My honest feeling is that Manning is a traitor and betrayed the his oath of service. His action may have put the safety of service men in danger.

No more so than the extrajudicial killings carried out against civilians.

Out in Pakistan stories of 'when the Americans came' were already being widely circulated and believed, what Manning did exposed them to the rest of the world and to America as being largely true. Up until that point the western press was quite happy to dismiss them as pieces of dogmatic propaganda. It's definitely hurt the US diplomatically, pretty much erased any moral high ground they could take when talking about/to Russia and China.

The whole thing begs a serious question too, which is the bigger traitor to you as a citizen, the government killing innocent people in your name or the individual who exposes it?

 

[Jacco]

A lot of people we will never know about died because of what he did.

That is a ridiculous statement, that saps away any credibility your argument may or may not have had.

No more or less than any of the number of similar, opposite claims.

If you truly believe no one died as a result of those leaks, then you are naive.

 

[fix-the-spade]

A lot of people we will never know about died because of what he did.

A lot people died and we would never have known about it were it not for what he did, everything a flip side.

 

[Kaymish]

well its a tough situation to deal with on a moral stand point i would say he is not a hero but neither is he a villain he is just a guy in a terrible situation
on the one side what he did broke his promise to the military
on the other hand the US govt was doing some shady things and he was really brave for standing up and saying "hey wtf guys"
and on yet another third and obviously mutant hand we have things like why did he even have access to all that data as only a private and why was security so lax in the first place that he managed to get out when he did also t didnt help that Julian Asange sold him up the river when he could have held fire for a couple of months while Manning finished his tour and got the hell out of doge its not like all that crap was super time critical.
then there is the whole legal equation did he break the law or did he not and its one im really not qualified to say

anyway like the real world this story is all shades of grey and no one is a hero or a villain

 

[tardcore]

Pfft, people in this thread condemning Manning because he broke some military oath or other. Look: Sometimes the moral obligation to do the right thing surpasses everything else. Haven't you considered the influences Manning's actions had in relation the Arab Spring? You don't think he helped catalyse those events?

Actually Manning broke very real laws. He made a moral choice and now has to pay for making it. Also I feel that the impact the leaked information had on the Arab Spring is highly debatable, as there were many contributing factors leading to the uprisings.

Personally I feel that Manning's biographer is disingenuously inflating Mannings importance in the matter simply to boost book sales. And I also feel Assange is doing the same to justify that Wikileaks is a good and positive thing. And while we're on the subject I'm also more than a bit disgusted with how many armchair moralists talk about how wonderful a thing the Arab Spring has been, while totally ignoring the human cost. While I'm all for the ousting of dictators, I can't help but feel the cost of innocent lives that have been snuffed out in the process just hasn't been worth it.

All that aside I don't feel the man is a hero or villain. I think he's a dupe. I feel he acted without truly thinking about the consequence of his actions should he be caught. And without care to how this leaked information would affect others. I also feel he acted less out of agonizing soul searching and more out of willful arrogance for the "lulz" as it were. Let's not forget it was his own e-peen stroking braggadocio that got him caught in the first place.

 

[Comocat]

Have any of Manning's leaks led to anything revealing? I feel like there was a lot of controversy at the time, but I cant think of anything damning other than some political name calling. I'm fairly certain we knew the US government engaged in torture before the release.