BREAKING: Women of #GamerGate Make Breakthrough on HuffPo Live

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Thorn14

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BloatedGuppy said:
Was that the social justice warriors too? Damn them!
...No it wasn't and ME3's ending had nothing to do with SJW. Anyone who thought it was was an idiot.

What it was was Bioware lying to us about the endings (Dev even said "It won't be an ABC ending") and how basically our choices mattered less than the actual multiplayer game.

That would have been cause for some internet noise, but then journalists began calling us "entitled" for getting upset over it.

And thats where the divide came up. Its when Erik Kain started becoming heard around the gaming circle and he made a lot of good points back then and I've been a fan of his since.

Whether or not its true gamers were "entitled" or what gamers believe, the point is there a massive divide and lack of trust between Gamers and Journalists and its hurting our industry.
 

Thorn14

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Not The Bees said:
Considering how crazy it was before those articles happened, the fallout with Zoe Quinn, the insane amount of shaming that was going on... I mean, we can hope that we have all grown from that, but at the beginning there, the amount of toxic and really vile rhetoric that was going on was honestly beyond par. It was definitely not something I had ever seen before, and I imagine it was nothing no one else had ever seen before.
Ever heard of the Streisand effect?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StreisandEffect

I guarantee you if that if Reddit didn't massively censor that one thread and journalists all start attacking gamers en masse, we wouldn't be having these megathreads and news interviews and such. It would at worse been a Phil Fish level flash in the pan.

But when you censor people from discussion and then attack them, you're going to see a kickback.

Imagine if there was a "Feminism" or "Feminism in Gaming" thread on some big site and it got blocked and erased and said "We don't want people discussing feminism." You don't think there would not be a pushback?

Not The Bees said:
Granted, that's not what actually came out of those articles. But then when people are angry, shocked, and confused by what they see, they're not always as eloquent as they should be. This is why people should never write when they're mad. Especially journalists.
Hear Hear. This whole mess got this way because both sides got angry and rabid. And now I'm 95% certain a third party is playing us all like fiddles.

And double post! Crap sorry!
 

Breakdown

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Thorn14 said:
BloatedGuppy said:
Was that the social justice warriors too? Damn them!
...No it wasn't and ME3's ending had nothing to do with SJW. Anyone who thought it was was an idiot.

What it was was Bioware lying to us about the endings (Dev even said "It won't be an ABC ending") and how basically our choices mattered less than the actual multiplayer game.

That would have been cause for some internet noise, but then journalists began calling us "entitled" for getting upset over it.

And thats where the divide came up. Its when Erik Kain started becoming heard around the gaming circle and he made a lot of good points back then and I've been a fan of his since.

Whether or not its true gamers were "entitled" or what gamers believe, the point is there a massive divide and lack of trust between Gamers and Journalists and its hurting our industry.
I missed out on most of the furore over the ME3 ending. Did the journalists call you entitled for hating the ending or for demanding the ending to be changed?
 

BloatedGuppy

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Thorn14 said:
...No it wasn't and ME3's ending had nothing to do with SJW. Anyone who thought it was was an idiot.

What it was was Bioware lying to us about the endings (Dev even said "It won't be an ABC ending") and how basically our choices mattered less than the actual multiplayer game.

That would have been cause for some internet noise, but then journalists began calling us "entitled" for getting upset over it.
To be fair WE were calling us "entitled" about it too. I had a lot of very angry debates with people on this website happy to call me entitled because I thought the ending was hot garbage, and none of them were prominent games journalists. Hell to this day people like to bust out "entitled" as a go-to insult.

But yeah the media was employed as attack dogs for EA. It was some shameful shit, and it's part of why I'm 100% behind the whole "transparency and ethics in gaming journalism" thing, although I don't take it NEARLY as seriously as some. Where I lose the plot is when I get told there is a liberal ideological conspiracy sweeping through gaming and the journalists are trying to indoctrinate me and yada yada yada.

Thorn14 said:
Whether or not its true gamers were "entitled" or what gamers believe, the point is there a massive divide and lack of trust between Gamers and Journalists and its hurting our industry.
Meh. In all honesty the industry seems fine. It's making for a lot of hysterical discussion around the edges of it though. It's "Dickwolves" Redux.

Breakdown said:
I missed out on most of the furore over the ME3 ending. Did the journalists call you entitled for hating the ending or for demanding the ending to be changed?
Both. For "unreasonable expectations" about the ending and for the temerity to demand such a carefully considered and hallowed piece of gaming art be altered from the auteur's vision.
 

Thorn14

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Breakdown said:
Thorn14 said:
BloatedGuppy said:
I missed out on most of the furore over the ME3 ending. Did the journalists call you entitled for hating the ending or for demanding the ending to be changed?
Both. Demanding an ending change is a bit extreme (But the DLC did do a decent job) is probably what journalists intended but the sheer noise caused some "Hey its their artistic decision!" stuff from journalists too.

Personally I thought ME3 was crap and the fact Bioware lied to us about our choices and ending was scummy as hell, and something should have been done, even a little thing (DLC went a good route, again), but even I thought people were a bit silly there. I just said "Fine I'm not buying anymore Bioware games."

That said, the point wasn't so much "Oh these people want a game changed and they're entitled." that made noise, it was "Its obvious gamers and gaming journalists are NOT friends and the fact that Journalists and Developers are so chummy with each other is causing a trust issue."

The issue didn't go away, it was bottled ready to explode, and here we are.
 

shrekfan246

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Thorn14 said:
Objective Review:

This game has a colorful palette with slight aliasing issues that are hard to catch unless staying still or looking up close. In motion the game is a vibrant blend of pastel colors and smooth framerate.
"Colorful"? Colorful to whom? Mayhaps one person's "colorful" is another's "garish". And any comment on the noticeability of aliasing issues depends entirely on the person playing, as well. What if someone doesn't even know what "aliasing" is? And "vibrant blend of pastel colors" is intensely opinionated. "Vibrant", much like "colorful", is a descriptive word used to describe something from the eyes of the person doing the describing. There is no way of removing that from the subjective opinion of the person writing.

Basically I want as little of the reviewers bias in a review as possible. I don't care if Tropico 5 hurt your feelings because you play as a tyrant. I don't care if Bayonetta being sexy upsets you.

In a world where Metacritic can affect the paycheck of a developer (which is bullshit) we must demand reviews be as objective as possible.
Find me one example that isn't Fallout New Vegas of a developer actively losing money because of the Metacritic score.

Also, prove to me why one review about the sexualization of Bayonetta (which still ended up giving a 7.5, a pretty good score) is something that needs to be stamped out entirely, when there are a multitude of other reviews out there that don't care or decided it wasn't a big enough problem.

How about instead of trying to shut up opinions you don't like to change the entire landscape to fit your perspective, you instead ignore them and find opinions that are actually relevant to your interests?
 

Theodora

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Silvanus said:
Georgina Young came across very well, I think. Intelligent and well-reasoned.

Jennie Bharaj's response to the host's question, about whether GamerGate supporters wanted gaming publications to stop focusing on minority representation, rose alarm bells for me;

2:58 - (approximately) 4:00 said:
Ricky Camilleri: "Yeah. It seems to me that some people in the GamerGate community seem to get upset and wrap themselves up in this conversation not because of a sort of corruption problem, but because a lot of gaming sites now talk about feminism, now talk about minority inclusion. And they seem to say, 'we want our game conversations, our gaming sites to talk about games and the experience of playing these games, not about a minority opinion, or including minorities".

Jennie Bharaj: "Exactly. And it does anger us, only because this isn't really an issue to begin with. I mean, we have so many prominent female figures in the gaming industry. We have Jane McGonigal, we have Robin Hunicke, creator of the MDA framework, we have Jade Raymond [...]"
This has always been my biggest stumbling block: there seems to be some level of dismissiveness towards the debate surrounding minority representation. This isn't true of all, of course, but it's a big issue I have.

She also referred to people who "call themselves social justice warriors". That has always been, first and foremost, a pejorative term, not a self-descriptor.
I drew a different takeaway from that. The question is being asked, but others are asking why is the question being asked? Putting it another way, is the question relevant.

Has the community of gamers or consumers of games cried out for these questions to be asked? No.

The Dismissive stance seems just, since among the actual community there are many scratching their heads wondering why this is an actual issue. The question was fundamentally injected by outside influences whom by their own admission do not particularly exist within the gaming community.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Theodora said:
Has the community of gamers or consumers of games cried out for these questions to be asked? No.
Can I see your polling results? I love polling results and statistics, and I'd love to pour over the ones you used to reach this conclusion.
 

Silvanus

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Theodora said:
I drew a different takeaway from that. The question is being asked, but others are asking why is the question being asked? Putting it another way, is the question relevant.

Has the community of gamers or consumers of games cried out for these questions to be asked? No.

The Dismissive stance seems just, since among the actual community there are many scratching their heads wondering why this is an actual issue. The question was fundamentally injected by outside influences whom by their own admission do not particularly exist within the gaming community.
There are plenty of people within the gaming community who are interested in representation. I'm one of them. Telling people their concerns are unimportant is precisely what will alienate them.
 

Thorn14

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Oh my so many replies. Okay.

BloatedGuppy said:
But yeah the media was employed as attack dogs for EA. It was some shameful shit, and it's part of why I'm 100% behind the whole "transparency and ethics in gaming journalism" thing, although I don't take it NEARLY as seriously as some. Where I lose the plot is when I get told there is a liberal ideological conspiracy sweeping through gaming and the journalists are trying to indoctrinate me and yada yada yada.
Yep, thats what my stance on the issue was. To me it wasn't about changing the ending (though yeah, the ending WAS shit and Bioware lied their assess off."

It was so much at how eye opening gaming "journalists" weren't interested in reporting like Kain did, oh no, they picked a side and a battle begun. Just like today.

shrekfan246 said:
Thorn14 said:
Objective Review:

This game has a colorful palette with slight aliasing issues that are hard to catch unless staying still or looking up close. In motion the game is a vibrant blend of pastel colors and smooth framerate.
"Colorful"? Colorful to whom? Mayhaps one person's "colorful" is another's "garish". And any comment on the noticeability of aliasing issues depends entirely on the person playing, as well. What if someone doesn't even know what "aliasing" is? And "vibrant blend of pastel colors" is intensely opinionated. "Vibrant", much like "colorful", is a descriptive word used to describe something from the eyes of the person doing the describing. There is no way of removing that from the subjective opinion of the person writing.
No offense but I'm going to disagree with you here. Colorful is not an opinion.

col·or·ful
ˈkələrfəl/
adjective
adjective: colourful; adjective: colorful

1.
having much or varied color; bright.

Now how you FEEL about it being colorful is an opinion, but its also not really pushing an agenda. Aliasing is also a measurable thing. Aliasing = Jaggies. And some games got em hard that can hurt it graphic wise. People think Objective = "As little description as possible" which is just not plain true. What ISN'T objective is one's own personal bias or agenda in regards to such a thing. Saying "Gears of War has a gray and brown color pallette for the most part." is probably not something people will disagree with. But then saying "Which is ugly" is now pushing it. Following that with "Which is a sign that modern gaming is now drab and lifeless so I took away points for continuing this trend" is now putting your own thoughts and agenda, and I just don't like it.

Find me one example that isn't Fallout New Vegas of a developer actively losing money because of the Metacritic score.
Destiny devs did not get a bonus for poor review scores. Though said reviews were fair. But you wanted an example.

Also, prove to me why one review about the sexualization of Bayonetta (which still ended up giving a 7.5, a pretty good score) is something that needs to be stamped out entirely, when there are a multitude of other reviews out there that don't care or decided it wasn't a big enough problem.

How about instead of trying to shut up opinions you don't like to change the entire landscape to fit your perspective, you instead ignore them and find opinions that are actually relevant to your interests?
I'm not trying to shut up opinions. If Arthur Gies wanted to write an opinion piece about sexism and bayonetta, he's more than welcome to. But keep it out of reviews please.

Not The Bees said:
There are precedents set up in the federal courts that if a privately owned site that allows online bullying, harassment, sexual harassment, or other such things, that the person in question can take you to civil court and sue. This is why there are very strict rules. And why people get modded and banned for certain buzz words, phrases and other such things.

Did reddit go overboard? Maybe. Were they covering their asses so they couldn't be held liable in case Quinn decided to start holding people accountable for people harassing her? Yes. And that is something no one took into account because they only saw what they wanted to see. And it wasn't like the Escapist didn't allow it to start up here immediately afterwards.
Curious, are there any examples of this happening?

And yes Reddit went overboard. Even just going "Sorry but we will not allow discussion of a woman's sex life on Reddit" would have been better than a massive delete and ban spree with little said. It creates confusions and confusion breeds conspiracy.
 

FieryTrainwreck

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Not The Bees said:
I'm going to tell you why I think the "objective reviews" vs. "subjective reviews" argument is a little disingenuous here.

The HuffPo moderator/interviewer is the first person I've seen, in all of this, to very publicly address the concept of critical lenses, which are essentially well-defined and overtly stated sets of biases (and often based on ideology - more on that below). Recognizing and understanding lenses is very important when consuming criticism. Consequently, I'd argue that any critics who do not willingly and openly divulge their preferred lenses are doing a disservice to the consumer. I'm not saying it's appropriate to staple your ideology to the top of the review, but I shouldn't have to suss out stark biases by researching your past pieces and associations. If your lens(es) aren't clear to me, there's a great chance I might badly misunderstand the criticism because I'm not privy to the unspoken criteria informing it. Such misunderstandings often lead to unproductive and intensely frustrating arguments - a fair characterization of this debacle to date.

Now I think it's pretty obvious that not all lenses are created equal. They vary in quality and function. A lot of lenses are highly exclusionary of alternate points of view, especially those based upon singular ideologies. Third-wave feminism, both as a lens and as an ideology, generally doesn't play nice with the group. It's not crazy about peer review. It's not very permissive of dissent. Identity politics, another lens and ideology, similarly rubs a lot of people the wrong way. Those people are often white and male, but what else do you expect when a ideology systematically ignores, erases, or otherwise shits on a demographic? Their unanimous support? Point being: lenses are useful tools for critics to explain their opinions, but those same lenses are equally useful for consumers in rapidly determining whether or not an opinion is of any value to them.

For whatever reason (and probably several reasons well worth discussing in another thread/post/age), a large group of online video game publications became thoroughly saturated with the aforementioned lenses of third-wave feminism and identity politics. This, in an industry where the predominant lens and criteria for criticism has been simply "how is it as a video game?". For damn near two decades, the games media has been breaking down review scores, or adding and subtracting points, based largely on mechanics, graphics, audio, etc. Themes and narratives and ideologies were sometimes interesting asides, but they weren't figuring prominently into the scores or the mind share. This makes a certain kind of sense; you want to judge your medium by the criteria most specific to and emblematic of your medium. When some more traditional lenses start to crop up, and they happen to be some of the more divisive and inflammatory lenses in existence, is the culture shock really such a big surprise?

I think a lot of the journalists involved in this conflict wanted to inject their personal politics and pet ideologies into games criticism, and that's quite admirable provided you're going about it in an honest and open fashion. I'd argue this was not the case here. I think a lot of traditional platforms decided to slowly (or not so slowly) shift the overall industry narrative to fit their lenses. Anywhere they met with resistance, we saw heavy-handed moderation and rampant accusations based on the lenses involved. Third-wave feminists encountering dissenting points of view tend to default to "misogynist!", and identity politic'ers similarly resort to accusations of "white cis male scum". Hard not to see irony in that last one, btw; when the truth becomes an insult and a powerful accusation, your ideology might need work.

Games criticism was going to grow up at some point. As the medium became more adept at telling stories, those stories were inevitably going to become targeted, purposed, and politicized. I think third-wave feminism and identity politics were the first lenses to arrive en mass, and they tried to gobble up all the mind share before anyone else could stake their claim. Turns out a substantial portion of the "gamer demographic" wasn't buying what they were selling, and that triggered a rather resentful and self-destructive backlash from those journalists who thought they had the community in hand. Gamers are understandably pissed off because a failed, naked attempt to control narrative is pretty universally infuriating, and every new hit-piece only stokes the fires and widens the chasm. The continued, widening assault on #gamergate is really counterproductive for these journalists. They're going to end up with the exact same audience they would have always had while the people they wanted to convince/convert turn away furious. And furious is far worse than apathetic.

Edit: "lenses" goes a very long way towards explaining how Polygon can award Gone Home a perfect 10 and "game of the year". Viewed through feminist/progressive/identity politics "lenses", Gone Home is a triumph. Viewed through the "gameplay" lens, Gone Home barely meets minimum standards. Now there's nothing wrong with applying whatever critical theory you desire to your reviews so long as you're operating above board and in good faith. I don't believe Polygon are operating in this fashion. I think they're reviewing a lot of games traditionally in order to attract a traditional (read: bigger) audience, and then they're singling out some games for sacrifice/worship based on far less traditional criteria. It's insidious, and a lot of people instinctively reject the incongruity.
 

KokujinTensai

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Well I gotta hand it to the Escapist. We are a very classy and respectful community. Even our detractors conduct themselves in a respectful manner.

Still no mention of "IM" and for that I'm glad.
 

shrekfan246

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Thorn14 said:
No offense but I'm going to disagree with you here. Colorful is not an opinion.
No, but using it as a descriptive term is. I cannot, for instance, simply state "Kirby Triple Deluxe is colorful" and expect that to be of any use to anybody reading my words. I must explain why I hold that position, and regardless of any "objective" qualities the game might contain, that entirely comes down to my personal takeaway of the game itself. I make the subjective choice to describe the game as "colorful", and I must explain why I believe that.

Aliasing is also a measurable thing. Aliasing = Jaggies. And some games got em hard that can hurt it graphic wise.
Again, actually bringing it up is a subjective judgement call made on the writer's part. A lot of people simply will not notice aliasing problems, unless they're that bad. People who have weaker eyesight, for example.

People think Objective = "As little description as possible" which is just not plain true. What ISN'T objective is one's own personal bias or agenda in regards to such a thing. Saying "Gears of War has a gray and brown color pallette for the most part." is probably not something people will disagree with. But then saying "Which is ugly" is now pushing it. Following that with "Which is a sign that modern gaming is now drab and lifeless so I took away points for continuing this trend" is now putting your own thoughts and agenda, and I just don't like it.
Then don't read their reviews. In fact, I'll just jump to the next part entirely, since it all ties together.

Also, prove to me why one review about the sexualization of Bayonetta (which still ended up giving a 7.5, a pretty good score) is something that needs to be stamped out entirely, when there are a multitude of other reviews out there that don't care or decided it wasn't a big enough problem.

How about instead of trying to shut up opinions you don't like to change the entire landscape to fit your perspective, you instead ignore them and find opinions that are actually relevant to your interests?
I'm not trying to shut up opinions. If Arthur Gies wanted to write an opinion piece about sexism and bayonetta, he's more than welcome to. But keep it out of reviews please.
"Objectivity" is not what people should want from reviewers. "Objectivity" is boring, lifeless, robotic, and makes for incredibly bland reading with very little actually useful information.

What people should be striving for is to find reviewers who wear their "bias" on their sleeves, so to speak. People who are open and clear about what they think and can articulate why they think that way. You don't think the sexualization of Bayonetta is relevant to a review of Bayonetta 2? Good for you. Don't read that review, don't follow that reviewer. But other people will find that information to be helpful, because they agree with the reviewer's position on sexualization and will agree that the presence of it lessens their overall enjoyment of the game. That is information vital to the readers who actually follow that reviewer, because it is relevant and useful to their interests.

EDIT: Messed up the quote formatting a bit.
 

Fappy

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BloatedGuppy said:
Fappy said:
I don't think we will ever have any real issues finding moderate voices of reason.
I could go for some moderate voices of reason about now. Aside from my own, of course. Has there ever been a voice more moderate or given to reason than my own? My sources say "No".
Who are your sources, exactly? I need evidence! I need numbers! If none are provided I cannot help but doubt your claims!

And you call yourself a guppy!
 

BloatedGuppy

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FieryTrainwreck said:
The HuffPo moderator/interviewer is the first person I've seen, in all of this, to very publicly address the concept of critical lenses, which are essentially well-defined and overtly stated sets of biases (and often based on ideology - more on that below). Recognizing and understanding lenses is very important when consuming criticism. Consequently, I'd argue that any critics who do not willingly and openly divulge their preferred lenses are doing a disservice to the consumer. I'm not saying it's appropriate to staple your ideology to the top of the review, but I shouldn't have to suss out stark biases by researching your past pieces and associations. If your lens(es) aren't clear to me, there's a great chance I might badly misunderstand the criticism because I'm not privy to the unspoken criteria informing it. Such misunderstandings often lead to unproductive and intensely frustrating arguments - a fair characterization of this debacle to date.
This is fair.

FieryTrainwreck said:
Gamers are understandably pissed off because a failed, naked attempt to control narrative is pretty universally infuriating, and every new hit-piece only stokes the fires and widens the chasm.
I'm a gamer. Have been for decades. Not pissed off. The "hit pieces" in question seemed pretty blatantly aimed at gaming's rather overtly evident asshole demographic, which we've all been discussing, joking about, or wringing our hands over for years.

FieryTrainwreck said:
They're going to end up with the exact same audience they would have always had while the people they wanted to convince/convert turn away furious. And furious is far worse than apathetic.
I don't see why the default result for having your point of view challenged or even attacked is "turning away furious". Anyone could, at any time, choose to elevate the debate.
 

kyp275

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Not The Bees said:
There are precedents set up in the federal courts that if a privately owned site that allows online bullying, harassment, sexual harassment, or other such things, that the person in question can take you to civil court and sue. This is why there are very strict rules. And why people get modded and banned for certain buzz words, phrases and other such things.
Uh, do you have the links to the actual case here? I find this claim rather dubious, as the Communication Decency Act of 1996 protects owners of sites from being held responsible for the comments posted by their users.

4ch, or for that matter Facebook and Twitter, would've been sued into oblivion years ago if people can actually sue them for the stuff that gets posted on there by the users.

Did reddit go overboard? Maybe. Were they covering their asses so they couldn't be held liable in case Quinn decided to start holding people accountable for people harassing her? Yes. And that is something no one took into account because they only saw what they wanted to see.
They can't be held liable anyway, ever. Hell, the whole celebrity nude leak a while back? Those people can't sue 4ch/reddit, or even legally force them to remove the pictures, and they have FAR more money, power, and lawyers than Quinn ever will.

And it wasn't like the Escapist didn't allow it to start up here immediately afterwards.
Which does not negate the censoring on reddit and elsewhere in the slightest bit. Is the Chinese censorship negated by the fact that people can use a VPN instead?
 

Thorn14

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shrekfan246 said:
*Examples*
Something I notice is you're arguing "Well people don't care about those." Just because someone doesn't care about something does not make it subjective. If a car has a problem downshifting and it can hurt performance, thats a fact, but people can still go "Well I don't care." And thats fine! But framerate and resolution and aliasing and sound quality are all objective.
"Objectivity" is not what people should want from reviewers. "Objectivity" is boring, lifeless, robotic, and makes for incredibly bland reading with very little actually useful information.

What people should be striving for is to find reviewers who wear their "bias" on their sleeves, so to speak. People who are open and clear about what they think and can articulate why they think that way. You don't think the sexualization of Bayonetta is relevant to a review of Bayonetta 2? Good for you. Don't read that review, don't follow that reviewer. But other people will find that information to be helpful, because they agree with the reviewer's position on sexualization and will agree that the presence of it lessens their overall enjoyment of the game. That is information vital to the readers who actually follow that reviewer, because it is relevant and useful to their interests.
In a world where there was no score system and metacritic and paychecks of developers that relied on them, you would be absolutely right. If everyone took the Total Biscuit approach of reviews of "This is what is going on, and here is the gameplay. And here is how I feel" (I think he does that at the end?) with no score put to it, we'd be just fine.

But when we bring numbers and paychecks into things, it changes the field considerably.

Arthur Gies's opinion of Bayonneta is irrelevant to me. His political agenda affecting a score is.