BREAKING: Women of #GamerGate Make Breakthrough on HuffPo Live

[Ushiromiya Battler]

For example we have the recent controversial thread about Fatal Frame's bouncy boobs physics.
Most people in that thread isn't criticizing, but advocating the removal of it and how you shouldn't be allowed to implement such mechanics.

Really? I just revisited that thread [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.862098-Thoughts-on-the-sexualization-of-the-new-Fatal-Frame?page=4], and couldn't find a single person saying developers shouldn't be allowed to implement it.

In the entire thread, the words 'allowed', 'remove', 'ban', and even 'shouldn't' were never said.

You could say I'm reading behind the lines.
''*Head desk* You know, I never got the abundance of sexy girls in fiction. I mean...why? Why? It usually just completely smashes whatever atmosphere you were going towards. Like this! Can we just back away from sex for five seconds!?''
Implies it should not be in the game.

''The jiggle physics? Oh, come on! At least not in a serious game. ''
Another implication it should not be allowed.

In all fairness I may have overreacted a bit.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Because what fan wants to be told that the next call of duty game is bad? Also in fact, who gets to decide if an audience would like a game or not? Plenty of halo fans love Halo 4. And as a Halo fan, I think it's shit because the story is bad. Is that biased?

When I said "tell your audience if they'll like it or not", I didn't mean literally tell them "you will like it" or "you won't like it", I was speaking about telling them using descriptions of the game to let them figure it out on their own if they'll like it or not.

And? You can't let your own opinion bleed into that? What if I thought that other fans wouldn't have liked Halo 4?

 

[Ushiromiya Battler]

DISCLAIMER: I have no keyboard to write with so I'll number your quotes as it is easier.

1.
It did in fact happen to RapeLay and that one Rockstar game.

uh... last I checked, no-one was interested in releasing rapelay outside of japan, O I don't think the controversy over it in the west 'stopped' it coming out here.

And which Rockstar game are you talking about? the only rockstar gamez I remember not coming out was the manhunt games in the UK, and that was more that the BBFC - the government certification body - refused to certify it due to content. That was a government body, not journalists.

Manhunt was the game.
The whole reason it was banned(for a while) was because some journalist after a murder put two and two together.
And you're thinking of Australia.

 

[Mikeybb]

Is there any way we can fold this discussion into the larger thread?

 

[redlemon]

How am I distorting anything? I simply described my interpretation of this phenomenon. Feel free to disagree with it if you want.

You deflect a talk about corruption and ethics into "Oh this is just journalists giving reviews you don't like". I'm not sure if you're doing this on purpose or if it's subconscious or something.

 

[Fappy]

Is there any way we can fold this discussion into the larger thread?

You can request a merger here: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/groups/chat/Moderation-Team

Honestly, they'll probably merge or lock it anyway if the thread goes on much longer.

 

[Zontar]

Snip

Because what fan wants to be told that the next call of duty game is bad? Also in fact, who gets to decide if an audience would like a game or not? Plenty of halo fans love Halo 4. And as a Halo fan, I think it's shit because the story is bad. Is that biased?

When I said "tell your audience if they'll like it or not", I didn't mean literally tell them "you will like it" or "you won't like it", I was speaking about telling them using descriptions of the game to let them figure it out on their own if they'll like it or not.

And? You can't let your own opinion bleed into that? What if I thought that other fans wouldn't have liked Halo 4?

If you honestly thought that fans may not enjoy it, that's one thing, but that's not the same as saying "the game is terrible because I don't like it", which is far too common in game reviews from sites which in theory know to hire people who should know better.

 

[WindKnight]

DISCLAIMER: I have no keyboard to write with so I'll number your quotes as it is easier.

1.
It did in fact happen to RapeLay and that one Rockstar game.

uh... last I checked, no-one was interested in releasing rapelay outside of japan, O I don't think the controversy over it in the west 'stopped' it coming out here.

And which Rockstar game are you talking about? the only rockstar gamez I remember not coming out was the manhunt games in the UK, and that was more that the BBFC - the government certification body - refused to certify it due to content. That was a government body, not journalists.

Manhunt was the game.
The whole reason it was banned(for a while) was because some journalist after a murder put two and two together.
And you're thinking of Australia.

Nope, I am A UK resident. And I remember manhunt 2 being banned for content, and some back and forth-ing as rockstar tried to trim it down to get it out (was hazy on the details initially, but more of its coming back). As for Australia, keep in mind that for the longest time they had very harsh laws regarding the certification of games that contained violent or adult content (much like german titles would generally have all gore removed, and even go so far as to have enemies replaced with robots).

I will admit there was a murder case in the UK where manhunt was blamed, and the tabloids had a field day over it, but nothing conclusive was proved.

And to reiterate, the papers pushing the idea the game had caused the murder were hacky tabloids like the Sun, Daily Star and the Daily Mail, who's jounalistic 'standards' align more with breitbarts than they do games journalism.

 

[Fappy]

How am I distorting anything? I simply described my interpretation of this phenomenon. Feel free to disagree with it if you want.

You deflect a talk about corruption and ethics into "Oh this is just journalists giving reviews you don't like". I'm not sure if you're doing this on purpose or if it's subconscious or something.

I'm not discrediting those who have legitimate complaints about corruption and ethics in games journalism. However, reviews not being "objective" enough is an oxymoron and not what I would consider a legitimate issue with the gaming press.

"Oh this is just journalists giving reviews you don't like"

^ That's the vibe I'm getting, yes.

 

[Insideout Ink Demon]

"Objective review."

*sigh* There is no such thing in gaming. With artstyle, gameplay, story etc all including subjective qualities you can't have an objective review worth a damn.

But on the other hand we have now "graphics are shit because I PERSONALLY don't like the art-style". When people ask for "Objective reviews" they want reviewers to dismiss their own biases to see the bigger picture.

I don't understand that. Isn't best to find a reviewer who you trust, and has a similar style preference as you? To remove all the passion sounds like a horrible way to do it to me. Some games feel great even though theyre full of faults.

on topic. I watched it. didnt hear anything new "corruption in games journalism"
I'd have thought the solution to that would be easy. find a site you trust (one with full disclosure maybe?), promote it like crazy amongst like minded people, help site grow and become top of their peers.
All this shouting seems silly
or is it the SJW thing? I'm still not sure it GG is against box A or box B

 

[Ushiromiya Battler]

Not familiar with the Rockstar title you are referring to, but RapeLay kind of exists outside this argument. I am not actually sure if it is formally banned in the US, but if it is it's likely because it has been deemed as "obscene". Obscenity law is tricky, and implies that the work in question does not qualify as art and can only hurt those that consume it and the community that allows it to exist. Basically that means it is something explicitly not protected by the First Amendment.

RapeLay were removed from sale from amazon because of its content, but yes you are completely correct.
I inferred from Guppy's post that games haven't been banned because of its contents, so I showed him the two examples I could remember.
Actually I just noticed I missed a crucial part of his post, so RapeLay doesn't count anymore.
My apologies.

 

[Fappy]

Not familiar with the Rockstar title you are referring to, but RapeLay kind of exists outside this argument. I am not actually sure if it is formally banned in the US, but if it is it's likely because it has been deemed as "obscene". Obscenity law is tricky, and implies that the work in question does not qualify as art and can only hurt those that consume it and the community that allows it to exist. Basically that means it is something explicitly not protected by the First Amendment.

RapeLay were removed from sale from amazon because of its content, but yes you are completely correct.
I inferred from Guppy's post that games haven't been banned because of its contents, so I showed him the two examples I could remember.
Actually I just noticed I missed a crucial part of his post, so RapeLay doesn't count anymore.
My apologies.

No problem, man.

Yeah, games like RapeLay are an entirely different can of worms XD

 

[redlemon]

How am I distorting anything? I simply described my interpretation of this phenomenon. Feel free to disagree with it if you want.

You deflect a talk about corruption and ethics into "Oh this is just journalists giving reviews you don't like". I'm not sure if you're doing this on purpose or if it's subconscious or something.

Here's a question:

If you thought gaming journalists were corrupt, what's stopping you from not reading the things they write?

Their lies have a negative effect on society. Why do we have laws against slander and libel?
The only problem is, gamers can't sue these people anymore than Muslims can sue anyone if they publish "Muslims are mostly made up of angry terrorists who hate freedom!"

 

[Silvanus]

You could say I'm reading behind the lines.
''*Head desk* You know, I never got the abundance of sexy girls in fiction. I mean...why? Why? It usually just completely smashes whatever atmosphere you were going towards. Like this! Can we just back away from sex for five seconds!?''
Implies it should not be in the game.

''The jiggle physics? Oh, come on! At least not in a serious game. ''
Another implication it should not be allowed.

In all fairness I may have overreacted a bit.

I wouldn't consider those to be saying that designers shouldn't be allowed to include it; I'd consider them both within the realm of criticism.

No worries, I don't mean to go all knee-jerk.

 

[Ushiromiya Battler]

DISCLAIMER: I have no keyboard to write with so I'll number your quotes as it is easier.

1.
It did in fact happen to RapeLay and that one Rockstar game.

uh... last I checked, no-one was interested in releasing rapelay outside of japan, O I don't think the controversy over it in the west 'stopped' it coming out here.

And which Rockstar game are you talking about? the only rockstar gamez I remember not coming out was the manhunt games in the UK, and that was more that the BBFC - the government certification body - refused to certify it due to content. That was a government body, not journalists.

Manhunt was the game.
The whole reason it was banned(for a while) was because some journalist after a murder put two and two together.
And you're thinking of Australia.

Nope, I am A UK resident. And I remember manhunt 2 being banned for content, and some back and forthing as rockstar treid to trim it down to get it out (was hazy on the details initially, but more of its coming back). As for Australia, keep in mind that for the longest time they had very harsh laws regarding the certification of games that contained violent or adult content (much like german titles would generally have all gore removed, and even go so far as to have enemies replaced with robotas).

I will admit there was a murder case in the UK where manhunt was blamed, and the tabloids had a feild day over it, but nothing conclusive was proved.

And to reiterate, the papers pushing the idea the game had caused the murder were hacky tabloids like the sun, daily star and the Daily Mail, who's jounalistiv 'standards' align more with breitbarts than they do games journalism.

Ah I did not think of Manhunt 2.
Manhunt was also removed from the shelves of certain UK game shops because of the murder case, hence the relevance.

We might disagree on this, but I feel the journalistic standards of today's game journalism is closer than ever to these 'hack' news sites you mentioned.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Because what fan wants to be told that the next call of duty game is bad? Also in fact, who gets to decide if an audience would like a game or not? Plenty of halo fans love Halo 4. And as a Halo fan, I think it's shit because the story is bad. Is that biased?

When I said "tell your audience if they'll like it or not", I didn't mean literally tell them "you will like it" or "you won't like it", I was speaking about telling them using descriptions of the game to let them figure it out on their own if they'll like it or not.

And? You can't let your own opinion bleed into that? What if I thought that other fans wouldn't have liked Halo 4?

If you honestly thought that fans may not enjoy it, that's one thing, but that's not the same as saying "the game is terrible because I don't like it", which is far too common in game reviews from sites which in theory know to hire people who should know better.

Well question. Shouldn't fans themselves already know what to look for in game? And shouldn't non-fans of the game, the ones who are the least informed on the subject and have no prior information

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

Person A: I'd like to talk about X!
Person B: Forget X, let's talk about Y!
Person A: Forget Y, we really need to address X!
Person B: X is just a smokescreen, the real issue is Y!

This pretty much encapsulates the whole "SJW vs. GG" affair in a nutshell: Each side arguing past the other and insisting that their argument is the only one that matters. Oh, and insisting that silencing the extremists on their side would be impossible while demanding that the other side do just that.

Gimme a call when people on the Internet grow up and can have a proper debate.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

It did in fact happen to RapeLay and that one Rockstar game.

Which Rockstar game?

I think we can agree "Rapelay" constitutes an extreme example of type.

What they're denying is certain elements of the game and developers can end up feeling pressured to change parts they don't want to.

Well, I'll play the world's tiniest violin for developers. They feel pressured to change things they don't want to all the time. Games tend to be fluid creations, and their audiences are always bellowing at designers for more of X and less of Y. It doesn't sound like a lot of fun, but it's not exactly a mystery of the industry either. It comes with the job.

It happened to the devs of Divinity Original Sin and it can happen to others.

What, exactly, happened to the devs of Divinity? Last I checked their game was well reviewed and sold extremely well, and the developers seem happy as pigs in shit.

It is paradoxical actually as I have no problems with changes that haven't been forced.

Define "forced". People argued that Bioware was "forced" to change the ending of ME3. Do you agree that this is the case?

EDIT: It appears you guys have talked all this to death up above, I replied before reading the parts of the thread I missed.