British spy agency intercepted Yahoo webcam images
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To be honest, I'm actually fine with spy agencies going through my personal files. First, I'm not exactly doing anything illegal, so what do I have to hide? Second, so long as it's not being publicly disseminated, then why should I worry? Third, it's kind of the nature of their jobs: they have to root through everything, because you never know how people are going to try and sneak things by them.
I imagine that jobs like the FBI and NSA are pretty thankless, because when you do your job and people find out, they get angry; but when you screw up your job and people get hurt, people get angry. The "best" case is you're doing your job and nobody finds out, in which case nobody cares about what you're doing.
I imagine that jobs like the FBI and NSA are pretty thankless, because when you do your job and people find out, they get angry; but when you screw up your job and people get hurt, people get angry. The "best" case is you're doing your job and nobody finds out, in which case nobody cares about what you're doing.
The issue isn't one of hiding, or even wanting to hide, stuff from the government. More an issue of the government spying on their citizens without a mandate from the citizenry. Somehow, don't think the English have a Please keep my naked pictures on file law.
This.eatenbyagrue said:
Furthermore, it seems to me that people are all about civil liberties when it comes to their sexy webcam time getting collected (unintentionally, and with no intention of anything being done with said collection), yet these are the same people who are the first to start screaming about "how didn't the authorities know this was going to happen?!" in the event of an act of terror taking place.
I know many will take what I've just said as some kind of fearmongering, it's not, I'm simply being practical - I honestly don't know how many Terrorist attacks in the UK have been prevented by the intelligence gathering of GCHQ and it's sister agencies. Unlike many fools who believe in 'transparency', I understand WHY it is I can't know every little detail of what an INTELLIGENCE organisation does.
I suppose, what I'm getting at, in a very roundabout way, is the following 3 points:
1. People seem to think that the government cares about their naked webcam photos. They don't, they've got limited resources which they need to provide security.
2. People seem to think that they have a right to know what Intelligence organisations are up to. They don't realise that this compromises the whole point of Intelligence gathering.
3. People seem to think that their information being gathered automatically equals a violation of their freedom - The government isn't stopping you having cam-sex, they don't care. If anything they actually don't WANT to see you having cam-sex (because it wastes expensive man-hours where some poor analyst has to trawl through the shit until they can find the video of Mohammed the bomber of Birmingham skyping with Mullah Omar about the big bomb he's going to set off in Birmingham next week).
That's my take on it anyway.
Yes. They do. Just because they have something on file doesn't mean they actually give a fuck about it being there - How much junk do you have on your hard drive that you've not got time to get around to deleting?Encore said:
GCHQ are busy trying to fucking spy on our enemies - they've not got time to go through making sure they delete the pictures of you fucking a watermelon for your online dominatrix that they accidentally picked up whilst looking for the Russian spy posing as an online dominatrix in order to facilitate her passing British secrets back to her own country.
(That last example was mostly to steer away from the whole "terrorism" thing, we have to remember that Intelligence gathering and securing information is still very much a game between nations).
It looks pretty bad when taken at face value, but at least they're doing it for national security, which is better than faking moral outrage to try and sell your Keylogging software to the users of this website.
It seems pretty hypocritical that you're trying to suggest that the British Intelligence Services are bad for gathering webcam data, yet you're trying to sell similar spying software to private citizens which will allow them to do the same to each other.
Why is it bad when public servants do it for a job, but good when private citizens do it in their free time for their own ends?
It seems pretty hypocritical that you're trying to suggest that the British Intelligence Services are bad for gathering webcam data, yet you're trying to sell similar spying software to private citizens which will allow them to do the same to each other.
Why is it bad when public servants do it for a job, but good when private citizens do it in their free time for their own ends?
Pretty much agree. As far as I understand they read your mails (mostly scan them with software first for flags) and MAYBE an actual person reads it after. So what? As long as they don't disclose it. And even IF you do something illegal or plan on doing something illegal or talk about something you did. They won't care for the most part. You send a friend a text that you were speeding. The NSA don't care. Technically you can text a friend that you killed someone and buried him in your yard. They can read the text but they can't do anything with it. Not that I would mind if they actually used that piece of information to arrest murderers but still.eatenbyagrue said:
Now don't get me wrong. I do have some ambiguous feelings about this topic. Mainly: it opens a moral door. They don't use this information to arrest you for speeding TODAY. But what about the future? Everybody does something illegal be it knowingly or unknowingly. EVERYBODY. For the law: illegal is illegal. There is no wiggle room in this. For a human being it should be different. Mass screening for complete control of your citizens. That is wrong. It is not yet a fact of today but it could be tomorrow (as in near future).
PS: not an american so this post is based on what I know of your legal system and the NSA as a european.
I'm 26, and working as a high school teacher, so I'm not exactly a "kid". Secondly, the whole point of government is kinda the whole "social contract" deal: you trade some of your liberties for other liberties. For example, if someone steals from my house, I don't have to collect members of my family to go burn down his house, because I have the police to do that for me (well, minus the "burning down his house" bit). In that respect, I allow the government to violate my privacy (to an extent) in order to protect me from people who would do actual harm to me and the country I live in. I had a thirdly, but I don't want this to become childish insulting, so I'll leave my second point to speak for itself.wombat_of_war said:
I couldn't care less about my internet trail. I've long since accepted that my surfing is being watched by someone, and that's inevitable, but I have to say I'm rather uncomfortable with the whole 'look through personal files' part. Are you saying you wouldn't mind them lifting files directly from your computer? That's where I personally draw the line.eatenbyagrue said:
Strangely enough, if I found spyware from my government hiding on my computer that'd probably push me into the drastic action that they're spying for, in an ironic sort of self-fulfilling prophecy. If they had a warrant for it, sure. Due process observed and all that. Otherwise... Bleh.
However, I get the feeling that the Australian government still sees computers as handiwork of the devil and running on a strange mix of goat blood and magical blue smoke.
I can deal with some government violation of my privacy. I don't have to like it. I do, however, believe it has to be both within reason, and there has to be a reason for the violation. I take issue, however, when the government is violating my privacy with no reason or purpose, as appears to be the case here.
To speak to the argument of "They don't care about your information", if they didn't care, why would they collect it? In large, you're right, the organization doesn't care. On an individual level, however, there's a human being somewhere who's going to find his neighbour or his co-worker's Yahoo ID.
Also, if the service provider (in this case Yahoo) isn't aware of the data collection, that practically screams that your organization has some issues with following due process.
To speak to the argument of "They don't care about your information", if they didn't care, why would they collect it? In large, you're right, the organization doesn't care. On an individual level, however, there's a human being somewhere who's going to find his neighbour or his co-worker's Yahoo ID.
Also, if the service provider (in this case Yahoo) isn't aware of the data collection, that practically screams that your organization has some issues with following due process.
It worries me how many people are just fine with this. We all know that 1984 isn't an instruction manual, it's meant to be a warning? THX 1138 wasn't supposed to be a preparation guide.
Yes, I'm sure we're all innocent. In fact, aren't we innocent until proven guilty? And until proven guilty, should we really have the government researching us with the same level they would NEED a warrant for? Warrants can't be given out with a reasonable cause for good reason. Whereas this is simply going into those same private areas without any ability to stop them, to point out legal requirements, to defend ourselves. This is simply a government acting beyond what it is mandated to do.
If they feel so confident about it, pass a law. Have a referendum. Make it a party policy. See how well the public responds to that.
I grow more and more weary that my country gets closer to China every day. Lessons on "How to be a good citizen" being introduced, a massive internet censorship, internet spying... Jesus Christ.
Yes, I'm sure we're all innocent. In fact, aren't we innocent until proven guilty? And until proven guilty, should we really have the government researching us with the same level they would NEED a warrant for? Warrants can't be given out with a reasonable cause for good reason. Whereas this is simply going into those same private areas without any ability to stop them, to point out legal requirements, to defend ourselves. This is simply a government acting beyond what it is mandated to do.
If they feel so confident about it, pass a law. Have a referendum. Make it a party policy. See how well the public responds to that.
I grow more and more weary that my country gets closer to China every day. Lessons on "How to be a good citizen" being introduced, a massive internet censorship, internet spying... Jesus Christ.
Not to mention, what about the many people who have something to hide that isn't actually wrong?wombat_of_war said:
You lived through the end of the cold war. When Intelligence gathering was at it's very zenith.wombat_of_war said:
Tell me, were you as disgusted with the idea that your country was expending huge amounts of money and manpower on gathering Intelligence on Soviet agents in the west?
They may not have had the technology they do now, but this newfound outrage does not tally to newfound policies and efforts - Countries have ALWAYS expended a lot of effort trying to secure their people from enemies within their own ranks.
That requires gathering intelligence.
People have a knee-jerk "I don't want to be spied on!" reaction to this kind of thing, and it comes from a place of incredible ignorance and arrogance.
Ignorance - Because you think the government wants to spy on you.
Arrogance - Because you think your life is fucking interesting enough for the government to care about any information it DOES end up gathering on you.
If you believe these things ask yourself 2 questions:
1. Am I a terrorist?
2. Am I a foreign agent actively engaged in Espionage against my own country?
If the answer to these is "No", then the government physically does not have the resources to go out of it's way to spy on you.
Such as?thaluikhain said:
Here're a few examples.Stu35 said:
-Passwords to banking services
-Private conversations about sensitive medical issues
-Pornography browsing habits
-Embarrassing incidents
There are many other things that people want to keep private and no one has the right to pry into. Active Surveillance of any kind should not be permitted without due process.
Valid, directly relates to personal security of the individual.Flames66 said:
Invalid. Implies that your right to not have some random analyst briefly know what porn you watch it somehow matters. This goes back to my "Arrogance" argument - people are genuinely arrogant enough to think that an Analyst at GCHQ cares what porn you watch.
That analyst is getting paid to provide Intelligence that the UK can use in a world of ongoing threats, where Intelligence is probably the most important element in successfully defeating or mitigating those threats.
Your choice of Hardcore gay bondage porn is not a part of that process, they don't give a fuck about it, and your personal embarrassment at looking at it is not enough of a reason for that analyst to be handicapped in doing his job.
I actually agree.
I feel, however, that we may differ on what we mean by "due process" - I, for example, don't think it involves letting the Guardian know everything you're up to, or that the individual you're gathering information on should know you're doing it.
What's your idea of due process?
Both of those cases directly compromise the very Intelligence effort being undertaken.