Burn the witch!!!... Justified?

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RyQ_TMC

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OK, so here's something that's been bothering me for a while.

Back in the Middle Ages and the Reneissance, some people were put to death for heresy. In the Protestant world, some other people were also put to death for spellcraft. There was a general tendency to burn those convicted.

Now - historical accuracy of modern portrayals of those events aside - we have it hardwired into our brains that whenever there is a "burn the witch" situation in fiction, it is pretty much always an innocent female being put to death by a fanatical, bloodthirsty mob. And don't the creators LOVE to use that preconception! Any protagonist, being faced with such a situation, will give it no thought and jump into the flames to rescue the damsel in distress, possibly maiming a few members of the mob. As far as storytelling goes, this is quite lazy - the author doesn't even have to give the hero any actual reason to save the convicted, the moment we hear the words "burn the witch", we have an immediate black-and-white conflict.

Of course, in the real world, punishing anyone in any way for "practicing witchcraft" is morally wrong - for the simple reason that we don't have working magic here. And while it seems that some of the witch-burnings of the past were for things like poisoning (the effects of which could often be qualified as magic being afoot), in general we can all agree that from the point of view of a modern audience, putting someone to death for casting spells - or being a bit off the rocker and believing to be able to cast spells - is just plain wrong.

However, we aren't talking about the real world here. We are talking about fictional settings, many of which have at least one working form of magic. Now what annoys me here is that surprisingly often in those settings, you could argue that the fanatical priest who wants to put the witch to death is in fact doing a sensible thing. And yet, the creators still use the lazy excuse of "it's a witch-burning, OF COURSE she is innocent!" and don't bother to create a genuine sense of conflict there.

A few examples spring to mind. To me, the worst offender is The Witcher, where
a convincing argument can be put forward that Abigail actually deserves her punishment, yet the game arbitrarily declares rescuing her - and massacring an entire village - to be "good", and letting her die to be "evil", after a chapter full of run-of-the-mill sterotypes which set up a clear "burn the witch."

Then we have Dragon Age: Origins and the Warhammer universe, where all magic users present a danger to people by drawing their power from the world of demons (yes, I know it's not strictly the "world of demons", but let's simplify it for the sake of argument). While in WH the witch hunters and templars of Sigmar aren't portrayed as evil, they are still bloodthirsty fanatics. In DA:O, while the game goes to some lengths to show that not all Templars are trigger-happy mage-haters, their profession of hunting down rogue mages and keeping the legal ones in check is portrayed as morally wrong.

I might have lost you with all that textwalling, so let me reiterate my point: the "burn the witch" set-up, which is often used by creators of fiction to present a clear black-and-white moral conflict, has no place in fictional universes where magic is real and dangerous. If you're presenting the protagonist with a situation where a magic-user is about to be executed, give him/her an actual solid reason to defend the witch/wizard in question.

Erm... Discuss?

PS I know this topic is verging on off-top, but since I only put examples from games here (there are some from non-game works of fiction, but I guess three is enough)...
 

Katherine Kerensky

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Mar 27, 2009
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I kinda like the 'Burn The Witch' situations, as they are what happen in real life.
It's humanity, they do stupid things.
Such as the Salem Witch Trials. Those poor people...
 

TheNumber1Zero

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Jul 23, 2009
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In my opinion it depends on how the magic is being used

Unusual but technically not a direct threat to anybody? They are in the clear
Summoning demons to render the flesh off of villagers? Not in the clear.

I would also need to see the usage of magic myself, hearing about it from someone else would not be sufficent proof of evil-doings.

I read the entire Op, and I really hope that we were supposed to discuss are opinions on what justifies a witch burning.
 

FactualSquirrel

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Dec 10, 2009
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RyQ_TMC said:
OK, so here's something that's been bothering me for a while.

Back in the Middle Ages and the Reneissance, some people were put to death for heresy. In the Protestant world, some other people were also put to death for spellcraft. There was a general tendency to burn those convicted.
According to QI, about one person was burned in all of the middle ages for being a witch.
 

Scikosomatic

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Sep 15, 2009
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what i always think is funny is that the regular people often have the RETARDED belief that they can somehow defeat a magical being...i mean, really, who here would ACTUALLY try to piss off someone you really believed to have magical powers??
 

TheNumber1Zero

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Jul 23, 2009
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factualsquirrel said:
According to QI, about one person was burned in all of the middle ages for being a witch.
Salem only burned one witch? well that reputation is blown out of proportion.

Note to all would be quoters: Don't.
 

Jaranja

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Jul 16, 2009
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RyQ_TMC said:
OK, so here's something that's been bothering me for a while.

Back in the Middle Ages and the Reneissance, some people were put to death for heresy. In the Protestant world, some other people were also put to death for spellcraft. There was a general tendency to burn those convicted.
Y'know Bloody Mary did some wacky stuff. Around 300 people burned because they were protestant.

[sub]Just thought I'd add it in because her reign was one of the worst[/sub]
 

ZSF

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Feb 28, 2009
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Oh look, outright denial of witchcraft in "reality" existing. Whether or not you realize it, you're sort of working against yourself.
 
Dec 14, 2009
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factualsquirrel said:
RyQ_TMC said:
OK, so here's something that's been bothering me for a while.

Back in the Middle Ages and the Reneissance, some people were put to death for heresy. In the Protestant world, some other people were also put to death for spellcraft. There was a general tendency to burn those convicted.
According to QI, about one person was burned in all of the middle ages for being a witch.
Stephen Fry and the QI pixies are never wrong.
 

JoshGod

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Aug 31, 2009
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never thought of it before
very few women were ever burned for witchcraft
as for not being in real life im only aware of DA and i hate the templers as im the mage, ill kill them all and do wtf i like!
 

FactualSquirrel

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Dec 10, 2009
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TheNumber1Zero said:
Salem only burned one witch? well that reputation is blown out of proportion.
Well, they killed way more than one, but only burned one on the grounds of being a withc.

Well maybe it was more than one, but it certainly wasn't that many considering what we think.
 

TheNumber1Zero

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Jul 23, 2009
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factualsquirrel said:
TheNumber1Zero said:
Salem only burned one witch? well that reputation is blown out of proportion.
Well, they killed way more than one, but only burned one on the grounds of being a witch.
That sounds about right, I guess the burning ones were the most well known so everyone ended up thinking that was the main.
 

ma55ter_fett

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Oct 6, 2009
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It depends... is the witch young and hot and a potential love intrest?

They get a "Get out of jail free" card in my heros handbook.
 

FactualSquirrel

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Dec 10, 2009
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TheNumber1Zero said:
That sounds about right, I guess the burning ones were the most well known so everyone ended up thinking that was the main.
Yup, just another fact that you will never use outside of internet forums while being pedantic...
 

RyQ_TMC

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Apr 24, 2009
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factualsquirrel said:
RyQ_TMC said:
OK, so here's something that's been bothering me for a while.

Back in the Middle Ages and the Reneissance, some people were put to death for heresy. In the Protestant world, some other people were also put to death for spellcraft. There was a general tendency to burn those convicted.
According to QI, about one person was burned in all of the middle ages for being a witch.
That's mostly because the Middle Ages were before the Reformation - the Catholic Inquisition was dealing with heresy, not witchcraft, which they knew was moot.

In the Reneissance, however, the major Protestant denominations did sentence people to death based on accusations of witchcraft, and not uncommonly the death sentence was carried out through fire.

In all fairness, while the burnings of either heretics or witches did happen throughout Europe, they were a lot less widespread than we are led to believe. But this thread was not made to discuss the historical accuracy of modern accounts and so I'll end it here.

TheNumber1Zero said:
In my opinion it depends on how the magic is being used

Unusual but technically not a direct threat to anybody? They are in the clear
Summoning demons to render the flesh off of villagers? Not in the clear.

I would also need to see the usage of magic myself, hearing about it from someone else would not be sufficent proof of evil-doings.

I read the entire Op, and I really hope that we were supposed to discuss are opinions on what justifies a witch burning.
The main question was whether a "burn the witch" is an acceptable cop-out for a lazy author if the setting features powerful magic, or if it should be justified. And opinions on what justifies a burning are also welcome, since they directly tie into the topic.
 
May 28, 2009
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factualsquirrel said:
RyQ_TMC said:
OK, so here's something that's been bothering me for a while.

Back in the Middle Ages and the Reneissance, some people were put to death for heresy. In the Protestant world, some other people were also put to death for spellcraft. There was a general tendency to burn those convicted.
According to QI, about one person was burned in all of the middle ages for being a witch.
([sub]Don't tell them the rest were drowned.. hem hem. Wink.)[/sub]