'Butthurt', 'brown nosing', 'white knighting', rabble rabble rabble - Why the weak name calling?

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Vegosiux

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Kyrian007 said:
I love earning those labels in an internet argument... they mean I won. Each of those terms are slung around by the loser, someone who cannot back up their argument point for point with you and resorts to what is basically just grade school name-calling as opposed to making an argument of their own.

Well, 99% of the time. There are always exceptions. Every once in a while someone who does have a decent argument just "lazies" out an accusation without backing up their claim. They get called out on it and they can actually back up their position (though not the labeling, there's no excuse for being too lazy to form a proper argument.) But that very rarely happens. Most of the time its "your really whitnighting _______? Really?" And their side of the argument consists of no better argument than that. Getting called a white knight is an almost automatic sign your "opponent" is arguing from a position of weakness (either on the wrong side, or just not smart enough to win the argument.)
I don't really like discussing things with people who enter the conversation with "winning it" in mind; they tend to suddenly make the discussion about themselves and their own greatness as opposed to about what's actually being discussed. I mean, the purpose of an argument shouldn't be victory, but an exchange of differing points of view and all that.

Not that any online conversation is actually free of people who don't really have much of an interest of discussing anything and are only in it to make themselves feel good.

I mean, I've run into a fair share of people who simply didn't care about anything other than "winning", even if what it took was exasperating me into going "Oh sod this, I've got places to be and things to do", then strutting around as if they own the place, while nothing of value was brought to the table, or taken from it...

The fact that I'm not the best example of of my own point does not really invalidate it though, does it?
The fact that the point of is to further understanding and/or consideration of various points of view as opposed to "winning" one does, however.

I agree that resorting to insults and personal stabs is poor rhetoric, but "winning an argument" doesn't prove you're right, it only proves you can argue your case better than the other party. The two often seem to get conflated, though, for some reason.

Not every issue is black and white, and it's okay if you agree to disagree - that means you see and understand the other party's point of view, where they're coming from, but you simply don't agree with them. Treating someone that argues an opposing point of view as some kind of an "enemy to be crushed" doesn't make for fruitful discussion, because if you do that, you're tainting it with your own bias.

For example, there are people I've often clashed with on particular issues, but I still have respect for them and their drive to discuss things civilly, even if we happen to be on the opposing sides on an issue.
 

Kyrian007

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Vegosiux said:
Kyrian007 said:
I love earning those labels in an internet argument... they mean I won. Each of those terms are slung around by the loser, someone who cannot back up their argument point for point with you and resorts to what is basically just grade school name-calling as opposed to making an argument of their own.
I don't really like discussing things with people who enter the conversation with "winning it" in mind; they tend to suddenly make the discussion about themselves and their own greatness as opposed to about what's actually being discussed. I mean, the purpose of an argument shouldn't be victory, but an exchange of differing points of view and all that.

Not that any online conversation is actually free of people who don't really have much of an interest of discussing anything and are only in it to make themselves feel good.

I mean, I've run into a fair share of people who simply didn't care about anything other than "winning", even if what it took was exasperating me into going "Oh sod this, I've got places to be and things to do", then strutting around as if they own the place, while nothing of value was brought to the table, or taken from it...

Not every issue is black and white, and it's okay if you agree to disagree - that means you see and understand the other party's point of view, where they're coming from, but you simply don't agree with them. Treating someone that argues an opposing point of view as some kind of an "enemy to be crushed" doesn't make for fruitful discussion, because if you do that, you're tainting it with your own bias.

For example, there are people I've often clashed with on particular issues, but I still have respect for them and their drive to discuss things civilly, even if we happen to be on the opposing sides on an issue.
And I'm right there with you, I'll always prefer a conversation over an argument. But when terms like "butthurt" and "whiteknight" get thrown around the person stooping to that level never really meant to have a conversation in the first place. That's when I start caring about winning, when it becomes an argument rather than simply a discussion.

See what I mean, if I were a better orator (writer, whatever) I'd have clarified that distinction in my original post.
 

Vegosiux

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Kyrian007 said:
See what I mean, if I were a better orator (writer, whatever) I'd have clarified that distinction in my original post.
Haha, good one. Yeah, practice makes perfect and all. I'm not so very above it all either, even if my post look that way, I do slip up. But in the end, somehow you learn to tell who it's reasonable to engage in a discussion, and who can go stick it, I suppose.
 

The Lunatic

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I tend to refer to "White Knighting" as a person defending a certain small group for the purpose of making themselves look better due to being sympathetic towards said group whilst having no actual interest in anything beyond their own desire to make themselves look better.
 

Pikey Mikey

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I have honestly never heard/read "brown noising" or "white knighting" anywhere
Although I've seen Brainiac/Mythbusters where they experimented with the alleged 'brown noise'
And I've read/heard enough children stories to know what a white knight stands for =P
 

Kyrian007

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Vegosiux said:
Kyrian007 said:
See what I mean, if I were a better orator (writer, whatever) I'd have clarified that distinction in my original post.
Haha, good one. Yeah, practice makes perfect and all. I'm not so very above it all either, even if my post look that way, I do slip up. But in the end, somehow you learn to tell who it's reasonable to engage in a discussion, and who can go stick it, I suppose.
It helps that we're discussing this here on the escapist, where I've been in relatively few arguments as opposed to civil discussions. That's why I like it here. I frequent a couple of other boards, all 100x more toxic than this community. The escapist seems to attract reasonable (if properly and entertainingly colorful) personalities. As far as forums go its kind of an oasis in a sea of sewage.
 

Ihateregistering1

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I've honestly never heard of anyone being accused of "brown nosing" on the internet.

To me, telling someone to stop being 'butt hurt' is basically just telling someone to stop getting personally upset and emotional about an argument or discussion, especially when it comes to things that don't affect them personally.

I've only heard of "white knighting" in the context of feminist/gender discussions, but the vibe I kind of get is that you're calling someone out on their hypocrisy. Basically, because the man is saying that women can do anything men can do, are totally capable, etc. but on the other hand he's acting like he needs to stand up for women because they can't do it themselves. I think a lot of people think it sort of reeks of a guy trying to impress women by acting like he's all "yeah women's rights!" and "look how enlightened I am!", when really it's just a ploy to score attraction points with women.
 

COMaestro

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I've never really seen 'brown-nosing' used on the internet, and really don't see how it would make any sense online as the idea of brown-nosing is to suck up to someone in order to curry favor with them. Unless you are getting some kind of perks out of it somehow. IDK.

White-knighting I've only seen used in relation to those defending "A", and it all depends on what they are defending. There is certainly no reason someone shouldn't call out another person who is threatening someone, and that would not be 'white-knighting' that would just be being a decent person. If they just mindlessly defend any criticism however without reasonable arguments, then the label is somewhat justifiable, even if it remains stupid.

Butt-hurt I do see quite a bit, though I've never used it online. I've used it once in real life after playing a board game with some friends and one guy got upset that the rules "weren't logical" and the game should play "this way." Game in question was Ticket to Ride, and he got upset that the games last round begins when one player has 0, 1, or 2 trains left in their pool and that the player got one more turn to play. Because somehow it would make more sense to play until ALL players were out of trains in their pool (which can be impossible as it's easy to get stuck with one or two trains and nowhere to play them, hence the reason for the endgame condition in the first place). After he left, the rest of us all just looked at each other and asked, "Is 'butt-hurt' the right word to use here?" It was hilarious.

As far as using these terms online, it really is just sad method to try to sound superior to someone else when you really have no way of arguing against their opinions. Someone worth having a discussion with with rarely if ever resort to this kind of name calling.
 

TheMadDoctorsCat

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I agree with you, 100%. We need to see an end to these petty overused cliche'd phrases.

We need better insults. Like these!

- You, sir, are a sycophantic lapdog, sucking the corrupt juices from the blackened nipples of your wastrel overlords.

- Your childish rage has less impact on the world than the silent death-cry of the common mosquito.

- Bravo, Sir Dickled, hypocritical defender of the victims of imagined misogyny, slave to your own tiny genitalia.

Now THAT'S how you go about insulting people to make your point.
 

BloatedGuppy

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The Lunatic said:
I tend to refer to "White Knighting" as a person defending a certain small group for the purpose of making themselves look better due to being sympathetic towards said group whilst having no actual interest in anything beyond their own desire to make themselves look better.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Paradox SuXcess said:
Where did all this labeling and phrasing come from?
It's just garden variety laziness. When confronted by contradictory opinions or challenges to core beliefs, the quickest route to disarming them is by attacking the source.

"Butthurt" is the only real exception, since it's really just a synonym for "angry". If you demonstrate anger, you are demonstrating that you are "butthurt", if someone feels like being charming with their phrasing.

Both "Brown Nosing" and "White Knighting" require insight into the hidden personal motives of the individual being accused, which absolutely no one involved in any internet argument ever can be said to have.
 

1066

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Let me try and explain these. First and foremost, and I'm sorry to say it, but you're arguing against broad stereotypes with even broader, more dramatized stereotypes. As with all stereotypes, these are laid on thick and too quickly, even when they don't apply. They do, on the other hand, have valid use, even if they aren't nice terms.

Since we are pattern-matching creatures, it's easier and often necessary for us to label or group things or ideals together to handle the sheer volume of what we deal with on any given day. In strictest terms, it may lead to us oversimplifying issues and judging, or prejudging, people too quickly, but it's how we think. It may not be 'enlightened,' but I'll still challenge anyone to find someone who believes they are 'enlightened' who does not automatically assume everyone else (or, more often those who disagree) is 'not.'

Just the same: Butthurt

It's an unkind term, and one I don't like. The term means someone who either doesn't realize the situation they've found themselves in and/or is unable to accept/handle criticism, and then argue that they are either a victim or that everyone else is an ***hole for pointing this out or criticizing them.

Often used in terms of people who are being actively trolled, insulted or even threatened, this is an example of it being used wrong.

Used 'correctly' refers, as an example, to a person who submits something to a contest or public forum and finds that it isn't met with immediate accolades. In short, people who have yet to realize that they aren't anywhere near as good as they think they are and who've yet to grow skin thick enough to handle the (honestly, soul-crushing) experience of having your work torn apart, which is part of the learning process.

You'll often find this among writers, really, but happens in all fields. In terms of movies, it can be reasonably put at the feet of Shamaylan (sp?) for what happened after The Village, which, by many accounts, led to him making Lady in the Water, which had him playing a writer whose work would change the world, but was antagonized by an eeeevil critic.

In other words: this is for people who just got 'spanked' by reality.


Brown nosing:

In proper usage, it's a term for Yes Men; those who seek to ingratiate themselves to something or someone. For the label, someone who kisses someone else's butt. Again, comes in all walks of life, and yes, often used wrong. It's come to mean those who (usually referring to a fandom of some kind) are incapable of not agreeing with something from the show or its creator; or worse, being unable to question anything they say.

In Star Trek fandoms, you'll often find this among people who refuse to hear facts from the show pointing to Star Fleet being a military (or paramilitary), generally because Roddenberry said no, or because the character said it that one time. I won't go into this, but if you'd like a good spiel, check out a guy called SFDebris and look for his most recent 'Next Generation' video. I enjoy his stuff and liked Star Trek when I watched it.

In reference to Superman from your statement, there's conversations I've gotten into with fans of the franchise. To preface, I have never really read or gotten into comics, and have never bought one.

I don't like Superman on the grounds that you can't get away from the messianic nature of the character. To be blunt, nearly every story I have read about the character, I have found generally childish and contrived. I have read decent stories concerning him, but have found them to be the exception by far and, so, I won't waste my time seeking out the few I may enjoy. Further, I have issue with events in-continuity where he has done terrible things and they are ignored after they've been done; reboot notwithstanding. I also respect the history and impact of the character.

Arguing that a person likes/doesn't mind the messianic nature of the stories, disagreeing that they really are more just an ideal that a messiah (I don't see the difference myself) and liking that kind of ideal, and arguing that the industry's method of swapping in and out authors leads to some disjointed narratives that you have to take with a grain of salt and ignore the ones you dislike are all fine.

Being told, and this is in no way an exaggeration: "No one's allowed to question the actions of that character. He's an ideal of what we're supposed to be, and that ideal can't be criticized, no matter what he does. His actions are, by definition, always good." That's brown nosing, with this definition.


White Knights:

Jack Thompson.

No, seriously, Jack Thompson.

Not counting some odd stuff that came well before his focusing on video games (which most people only really learned about later) and the stuff that came right at the end (VG cats and Penny Arcade being two big ones), Jack Thompson was a figure in gaming for quite some time and, in many ways, the butt of everyone's joke. He was universally despised by the community, with videos put out by Screw Attack celebrating his disbarment and PA basically taunting him throughout, and most people would agree he deserved it.

As with your 'A,' though, he wasn't wrong. Video games are generally quite violent, but calling everyone in the community out on the idea that violent games make people violent just pissed people off. The entire issue of him calling pedophilia on the Sims was the result of a troll (or so is my understanding) and, by all accounts, what he received by way of hate mail and threats from the community was far worse and universal.

I approve of neither, mind you.

Thompson complaining that there was an animated gif, however crude, of him being beaten to death was a joke.

'A' complaining that there was a program that overlayed a gif over a picture of her face (which I am aware of ones for presidents Bush and Obama, and Justin Bieber, to name just a few) became a platform and source of sympathy and support.

Both have been caught in lies and done PR stunts, such as trying to gain sensationalist support from outside the community.

Absolutely no one stood up, or will stand up, for Jack Thompson.

The term, rather ironically considering, is that a damsel in distress will be saved by a White Knight.
 

The Lunatic

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BloatedGuppy said:
The Lunatic said:
I tend to refer to "White Knighting" as a person defending a certain small group for the purpose of making themselves look better due to being sympathetic towards said group whilst having no actual interest in anything beyond their own desire to make themselves look better.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
Are you claiming I'm projecting, that they're projecting, or just linking to a random wiki article?
 

Zipa

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Most of them are just stupid words or phrases that people have come up with because they are salty about losing either a game or an argument, its not really worth wasting energy worrying about it.
 

Vegosiux

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BloatedGuppy said:
The Lunatic said:
I tend to refer to "White Knighting" as a person defending a certain small group for the purpose of making themselves look better due to being sympathetic towards said group whilst having no actual interest in anything beyond their own desire to make themselves look better.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
Accusing someone of "projecting" is basically self-defeating, because there's no way you can convince anyone for sure that you're not projecting yourself when accusing someone of projecting. Basically, how do you know you're not projecting when you do that? You don't, because by definition it works "unconsciously". So, I guess we can both yell "NO YOU!" at each other all day because each of us is convinced that it's only the other guy doing the projecting...

Ugh, I just divided by mental zero.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Vegosiux said:
Accusing someone of "projecting" is basically self-defeating, because there's no way you can convince anyone for sure that you're not projecting yourself when accusing someone of projecting. Basically, how do you know you're not projecting when you do that? You don't, because by definition it works "unconsciously". So, I guess we can both yell "NO YOU!" at each other all day because each of us is convinced that it's only the other guy doing the projecting...

Ugh, I just divided by mental zero.
Yeah but HE did it first! I win!

Really though, if "projecting" is too loaded a term, will this do?

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_by_assertion

or this?

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_hominem

Really people should just stop using name-calling as a shortcut to ending disputes. Except me, I can keep doing it. Because I'm fantastic.
 

MeChaNiZ3D

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Sometimes you just have to say it like it is. Other times you want to dismiss someone's argument without addressing it. Other times you have no actual integrity and are just spouting shit. All sorts of reasons.
 

Dr. Cakey

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Paradox SuXcess said:
Thoralata said:
These terms come from 4Chan, and are therefore the cawing the juvenile asshats. The kind of people who think there's nothing worth getting offended about on the internet whatsoever (bullshit) and anyone who does get offended is just too sensitive, or trying to get laid, or whatever the pathetic excuse of the day is slung around by the kind of people who have the poor social skills to be hanging around 4Chan or Reddit being assholes to people all fucking day.
I've never been on or even take notice of things like 4chan and Reddit. Are they really that bad cause it sounds like they are filled with people that either has too much time on their hands or people who are looking to build up their ego by getting cheap wins and insults that are pretty much meaningless. Or and I guess they over use the terms "free speech/freedom of speech" too many times to justify anything they say even if it's vile and disgusting.
No, they're not that bad. Those places are, for example, the only places you can have a reasonably intelligent discussion about anime. The people who criticize Reddit and 4chan are probably either doing it in order to appear more intelligent, or because they've never actually been to either and heard from a friend of a friend about something that happened in /r/atheism or something.

On the subject at hand, I like the word "butthurt". I don't use it, but I like it because it has a very unique place among the various kinds of name-calling. Most derogatory names - like, for example, "white knight" - tell you about the person using them. For example, someone who uses the phrase "white knight" probably has some issues with the womenfolk. "Butthurt" is quite different, though - it tells you about the person accused of being butthurt. A lot of the time, this person will for some reason feel that because they were called butthurt their opponent has somehow abandoned all credibility. This person will then often get quite disgusted over the fact their opponent used the word "butthurt" and criticize them for doing so. One might go so far as to say that they got butthurt over being called butthurt.

tl;dr In my book, if you think you've 'won' the argument because your opponent called you butthurt, you lost.