Buying fullprice or second hand? What will it take to change.

[Daystar Clarion]

I get the sentiment - you're paying full price for something that's MISSING something.

It's the same reason why I don't buy most games new.
It seems like most AAA games are half made and DLC is then released to make up for it.

Yay. Someone with a brain. Its this idea that now its no manual, what in the future?

Holy fuck, only proving my point.

Ignoring people that disagree with you and saying they have no brains, acting like your opinion on the matter is law, refusing to give hard working developers the money they deserve because of the lack of a manual even though the lack of a manual has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GAME ITSELF.

Self entitled, pompous, pretentious.

Great job. Really. You're a wonderful person.

Only in the fact you read my comment properly. Others see it as why you moaning about no manual? Im not. Its the slippery slope to paying full price and getting nothing for your money. My apologies, my comment came out more arseholey than it should of. But this could be more to bad communication of the thread.

The bolded part is a fallacy.

You can spout supposition all day, it doesn't detract from the fact that manuals take nothing away from a game. If your biggest concern is the lack of a manual, then there's something up with your priorities.

I've been playing video games since 1991 and I can honestly say that, while manuals are a nice touch sometimes, they aren't what I bought the game for.

It's like paying money to watch a football game and then deciding it's not worth it because the colour of the seats isn't to your liking.

 

[Tanis]

I'm twenty two, lower-middle class, and I've been getting new games since I was seven or eight. Possibly earlier. I know exactly what you're talking about. But the lack of a manual takes absolutely NOTHING away from the game itself.
EDIT: For the record, I empathize with the situation, I just disagree with it taking away from the experience.

Not from the game ITSELF, but - at least for me - there is a level of expectation.

If I'm going to drop 60USD for a game, it damn well better be worth it.
Not just the game, but the packaging.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

As stupid as this sounds...it could be an 'age thing'. Growing up with video games and such.

Maybe your right. You grow up with something, you always expect it. I know PC games have online manuals, and thats fair enough. I except that. But console games? If the manual was on the disk and you open it then thats fine. But why have to go to a website to read it? Just seems really cheap.

They didnt even have basic controls in the game. They had nothing. Even Gears3 had a basic controls listing.

I think your right, its an age thing. Maybe manuals are not so special now with the internet. Even lyrics you can look for online. Its a shame.

 

[DeadlyYellow]

If you want inserts, buy a Nintendo game.

Seriously, they're perhaps the largest reason I want less crap to fall out when I open a case. Nor do I have any use for them anymore.

I also will very rarely pay over $20 for any game.

 

[Savagezion]

Well, I will back the OP. The OP isn't saying that the manual is the ONLY reason to buy used. Just that it does matter. Every used game I have ever bought, the disc is flawless, I check before I leave the store and have only once had to ask if I could get a better disc.

If you can get a flawless used disc the ONLY reason to buy new now is to support the developer's finances over your own. Anyone who has to make a real decision about that and chooses to support their own finances will end up buying a game used. He is claiming that there isn't much incentive thrown our way in regards to tangible product - especially if you don't plan to pre-order. Used games used to be "iffy" if you like having a manual. (I love it.) I have actually just recently bought 3 game manuals by themselves online to replace 1 that had a drink spilled on it and obtain 2 for a couple used games I bought.

Really, if you look back into the late 80s and early 90s, manuals were bad ass. It seriously sucked not having the manual or a crappy manual because most games offered awesome manuals. Rockstar still does awesome manuals that were considered "average" back in the day. I always take an "anticipation dump" while a game is installing and/or right before playing a new game usually anyways. Rockstar are the only ones I can think of at the moment that provide good reading material about the game I am about to play with the game. Arcanum gave me a book that I have read on the toilet and computer desk chair many times.

Manuals? Haven't read one of those in years. I feel like nowadays everything you need to know is explained from within the game.

Personally, I don't like that. First, you have to install games often these days and that is time I am sitting there staring at a bar fill up when I could be reading a manual about character bios, point of interest descriptions on the world, and learning which button is jump as well as possible combinations. That way, when I start the game I am not given some trope of Amnesia, "Outlander", or have the first 20 minutes be designed to show me something that I could figure out for myself in 3-5 minutes. (I can figure out what the buttons do by pushing them.)
Any story driven game would benefit by having manuals to familiarize the player with the in-game world before thrusting them into it. Especially, now that we have to wait for the game to install anyways.

Also, if you have read this entire posts, you could have read 2-3+ pages of a manual in that time and gotten a good overview of the game and the controls you feel are most important to you.

 

[mysecondlife]

As long as they don't try to charge you for manual separately, it wont matter at all.

I once bought a music cd with no lyric booklet. you had to buy them separately for a dollar. Well that pissed me off.

 

[ZeroMachine]

As long as they don't try to charge you for manual separately, it wont matter at all.

I once bought a music cd with no lyric booklet. you had to buy them separately for a dollar. Well that pissed me off.

THAT is BULLSHIT. I would have refused to buy that CD on principal

EDIT: Huh, wow, ok, probably a little hypocritical on my part... but I feel like in that case the band could have easily prevented that. It's bad PR.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

I get the sentiment - you're paying full price for something that's MISSING something.

It's the same reason why I don't buy most games new.
It seems like most AAA games are half made and DLC is then released to make up for it.

Yay. Someone with a brain. Its this idea that now its no manual, what in the future?

Holy fuck, only proving my point.

Ignoring people that disagree with you and saying they have no brains, acting like your opinion on the matter is law, refusing to give hard working developers the money they deserve because of the lack of a manual even though the lack of a manual has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GAME ITSELF.

Self entitled, pompous, pretentious.

Great job. Really. You're a wonderful person.

Only in the fact you read my comment properly. Others see it as why you moaning about no manual? Im not. Its the slippery slope to paying full price and getting nothing for your money. My apologies, my comment came out more arseholey than it should of. But this could be more to bad communication of the thread.

The bolded part is a fallacy.

You can spout supposition all day, it doesn't detract from the fact that manuals take nothing away from a game. If your biggest concern is the lack of a manual, then there's something up with your priorities.

I've been playing video games since 1991 and I can honestly say that, while manuals are a nice touch sometimes, they aren't what I bought the game for.

I agree with you. The game is the important part. But so is a manual for controls, even if it is basic. Mostly games are going the way of music downloads. In the future you will be paying nigh on full price for a digital download. That, i feel, is a rip off. Having something physical you can see why it cost you money, digital download should be cheap. But it wont be. A new game on steam isnt that much cheaper than buying a physical copy.

 

[Savagezion]

I get the sentiment - you're paying full price for something that's MISSING something.

It's the same reason why I don't buy most games new.
It seems like most AAA games are half made and DLC is then released to make up for it.

Yay. Someone with a brain. Its this idea that now its no manual, what in the future?

Holy fuck, only proving my point.

Ignoring people that disagree with you and saying they have no brains, acting like your opinion on the matter is law, refusing to give hard working developers the money they deserve because of the lack of a manual even though the lack of a manual has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GAME ITSELF.

Self entitled, pompous, pretentious.

Great job. Really. You're a wonderful person.

Only in the fact you read my comment properly. Others see it as why you moaning about no manual? Im not. Its the slippery slope to paying full price and getting nothing for your money. My apologies, my comment came out more arseholey than it should of. But this could be more to bad communication of the thread.

The bolded part is a fallacy.

You can spout supposition all day, it doesn't detract from the fact that manuals take nothing away from a game. If your biggest concern is the lack of a manual, then there's something up with your priorities.

I've been playing video games since 1991 and I can honestly say that, while manuals are a nice touch sometimes, they aren't what I bought the game for.

It's like paying money to watch a football game and then deciding it's not worth it because the colour of the seats isn't to your liking.

ONe could claim that having no manuals means a significant portion of time was tied up into making in game tutorials and gameplay centered around it. The first 20 minutes of any game is usually a drawn out sequence of events to teach you how to do stuff, when those same events could be more about the game world itself. Additionally, it makes starting a new game annoying to have to push past those crappy tutorial parts.

EDIT: In your analogy it is more like paying money to watch a football game and getting upset that you paid admission but they don't even sell foam fingers or T-shirts and various other team souvenirs when you used to get them for free for attending a game.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

As long as they don't try to charge you for manual separately, it wont matter at all.

But why look online on a PC for a manual for an 360 game? That i dont agree with. Why not unlock it from the game disc and view it that way? Even so, i do agree with your comment.

 

[Rednog]

Game manuals don't and shouldn't exist anymore for a couple of reasons.
It actually takes time and money and people to actually slap together a manual. Especially if you want one that has any meat to it. Second time and money to print and package the manual.
The thing is that games are getting better and better over time, especially with providing in game tutorials for the player. So why does one need a manual when the game basically introduces the mechanics as you go? Also, for many games there are now rebindable keys, and different controller layouts, so why bother printing the default keys when players have them readily accessible and rebindable in the options menu? Also, keys/buttons have become somewhat standard for many games, ASWD to move, space to jump, C or Z to crouch...etc.
Also in terms of background, story, whatever games have become really good at introducing this information in the actual game. This isn't the 90s where you just get thrown into the level and told to play and have to read to manual as to wtf is happening. Games have lovely intro cinematics/tutorials/etc that explains it.

It is great that you like that stuff, but why take money and resources away from the game for a freaking manual. Less and less people are using them because games are doing a better job. This is good for everyone. You're not paying for a lesser product because there is no manual, the money went into game.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

I get the sentiment - you're paying full price for something that's MISSING something.

It's the same reason why I don't buy most games new.
It seems like most AAA games are half made and DLC is then released to make up for it.

Yay. Someone with a brain. Its this idea that now its no manual, what in the future?

Holy fuck, only proving my point.

Ignoring people that disagree with you and saying they have no brains, acting like your opinion on the matter is law, refusing to give hard working developers the money they deserve because of the lack of a manual even though the lack of a manual has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GAME ITSELF.

Self entitled, pompous, pretentious.

Great job. Really. You're a wonderful person.

Only in the fact you read my comment properly. Others see it as why you moaning about no manual? Im not. Its the slippery slope to paying full price and getting nothing for your money. My apologies, my comment came out more arseholey than it should of. But this could be more to bad communication of the thread.

The bolded part is a fallacy.

You can spout supposition all day, it doesn't detract from the fact that manuals take nothing away from a game. If your biggest concern is the lack of a manual, then there's something up with your priorities.

I've been playing video games since 1991 and I can honestly say that, while manuals are a nice touch sometimes, they aren't what I bought the game for.

I agree with you. The game is the important part. But so is a manual for controls, even if it is basic. Mostly games are going the way of music downloads. In the future you will be paying nigh on full price for a digital download. That, i feel, is a rip off. Having something physical you can see why it cost you money, digital download should be cheap. But it wont be. A new game on steam isnt that much cheaper than buying a physical copy.

If they start charging players to read the manuals, then we've got a problem.

Hell, they may have done studies to see on average, how many players read the manual. Maybe they decided "hey, we're wasting quite a bit of cash on printing an extensive manual when most people aren't reading them. So maybe we should make the manual available online for those who want to read it and save the money?"

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Some games it really nice to have a manual handy, but I don't worry over the future of gaming if it's a manual free world. That would be silly, there are much better things to worry about.

Wait, the OP thinks we don't have a brain unless we agree them.... lol ... That's so cute!

Sorry. That comment was a mistake. Maybe i communicated my original thread wrong. I just think this is a slippery slope into digital gaming and paying full price for nothing. Why was it PC only to download? Why not download it to your 360?

I might be misreading what you wrote... but you can download games for the 360, and buy PC games in a store you know...

Considering you don't need strategy guides anymore, I'm not surprised companies want to save some money by skipping printed manuals. Did the GTAV article rile you up? Don't worry, hard drives are too expensive and small right now for disks to be aced out as well... but your just worried about the manuals? meh

Almost every game has all the info you need in a menu or two in-game, plus we still have the internet.

I know you can download games on 360 and PC, i also expect the manuals to be downloadable as well. Not fussed about the GTAV thing, last game sucked so doubt i would buy the new one anyway. I guess, maybe, its more about change. Things becoming digital download only and the fact prices will be the same even though you dont have anything to show for the price. Not so much the maunals, i just see it as the first step on the road to digital only distribution. Which i hate the idea of.....mostly due to prices wont come down. At all. Look at Batman AC, a AAA title, they will easily make their money even with a manual. Cheaper games i can see would save their budget. I dont know. Maybe its a fear of change. But since the whole MP3 downloadable music thing, the price hasnt changed at all. A 1 disk single used to be £1, now its £0.79. An album is around £7.99. Not much cheaper than a physical album.

 

[Something Amyss]

People flaming someone for actually wanting to have an instruction manual. Now I've seen everything.

Oh well. I still prefer to read than play some idiotic tutorial mission.

Personally, the manual's never been a big thing for me. What matters is content. If I think they game is going to be awesome, I buy it new. If I'm on the fence, I'm waiting for a deal or buying it used.

In the future you will be paying nigh on full price for a digital download.

In the future?

In the present, you pay nigh on retail prices for games on Steam (You even mention this), Origin, XBLM, etc.

Barring sales, and even then, how often to do you see one of those brand new, "AAA" titles have a significant price cut?

it's already happened. And I hate to say it, but we're probably locked in. Digital content is going to be put out at the same price as retail, and that's pretty much a given since it's already happening.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Hell, they may have done studies to see on average, how many players read the manual. Maybe they decided "hey, we're wasting quite a bit of cash on printing an extensive manual when most people aren't reading them. So maybe we should make the manual available online for those who want to read it and save the money?"

Makes sense. A lot of sense. I guess im just stuck in the old gaming years. This is the future and i will be dragged kicking and screaming into it.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

People flaming someone for actually wanting to have an instruction manual. Now I've seen everything.

Oh well. I still prefer to read than play some idiotic tutorial mission.

Personally, the manual's never been a big thing for me. What matters is content. If I think they game is going to be awesome, I buy it new. If I'm on the fence, I'm waiting for a deal or buying it used.

In the future you will be paying nigh on full price for a digital download.

In the future?

In the present, you pay nigh on retail prices for games on Steam (You even mention this), Origin, XBLM, etc.

Barring sales, and even then, how often to do you see one of those brand new, "AAA" titles have a significant price cut?

it's already happened. And I hate to say it, but we're probably locked in. Digital content is going to be put out at the same price as retail, and that's pretty much a given since it's already happening.

The flaming is fine, i guess people dont care about the manual. An i agree with them, the game is the important, but the manual is a part that is easily overlooked. Especially when you see it as a product that cost money to produce and print. Without a manual, how can they charge full price? But i know its a money thing, and thats ok. Just pointing out the fact that manuals have been getting smaller and smaller and now online.

The online thing doesnt bother me so much as that its not "unlockable" to view on your 360 offline. The console your playing the game on. That is an issue i feel.

Maybe its me. Im 34 and im just used to this stuff. Maybe change is an issue for me. Also i probably didnt communicate my thread properly which causes people problems. But when i look at Steam, its not cheap. Games to download are only £5 cheaper than buying a physical copy. But when everything is digital, and Game shops no longer exist, the games will raise to normal AAA prices.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Game manuals don't and shouldn't exist anymore for a couple of reasons.It is great that you like that stuff, but why take money and resources away from the game for a freaking manual. Less and less people are using them because games are doing a better job. This is good for everyone. You're not paying for a lesser product because there is no manual, the money went into game.

I agree, i do. But i love them and expect them. Even if the manual is basic, i at least expect one that tells you what the buttons do. But to get nothing? Why not 360 manual downloadable to view on the 360? Or PS3 manual viewable on a PS3? Why on a PC? Even though it saves them money in printing costs, which is fair enough, its just another step down the path to digital distribution on consoles and paying full price for non-physical property. I guess thats the issue i have. The prices will stay the same even though we have nothing to show for it. Although i predict this will mean less sales as people wont buy crappy games if they cant sell them second hand.

Also if everything is digital. Whats to stop you buying a legal download instead of a free illegal download?

 

[idarkphoenixi]

Not sure where you've been but the days of a nice thick game manual are long over. The companies have been trying to phase them out for a while now to save both the time writing it and the money making it.

Who even bothers with the manual any more either, really? Seems to me most people just put in the game and figure it all out from there.