buying used games is stupid

[MorphingDragon]

my point is the fact that they could've had 1 million extra sales, but lost those to the used market. It was simply an example of how the used market is costing devs a lot of money.

By that kind of dodgy accounting they could also claim that it costs them money when people lend games for friends to play. Or have their friends around and let them play the game. A friend lent my brother Assassin's Creed II just recently; both my brother and I played it. Did we just cost Ubisoft two purchases?

no because you weren't paying money to do so, people buying used ARE. And yeah im behind content creators getting money for what they make.

So by your logic it's okay (moral issues aside) to pirate the game because I won't be be spending any money to play the game. Can you spot the fallacy here?

nope. Your not spending money either way. Sure piracy is illegal and you will get roshambo'd for that. But people who pirate EVERYTHING probably weren't going to be a consumer in the first place. I long ago gave up arguing against them because their thieves and theres no rationalizing with them.

Compared to a consumer trying to save a few bucks by giving money to people who have nothing to do with the game. Which is a shame because in doing the decent thing and paying they payed the wrong people, and if more people actually bought first hand the industry would be much healthier, and more risky titles would be being made.

Which is a shame in my eyes.

But by all means you go ahead and save your 5 bucks and watch developers fail. Hope that will be fun for you.

Oh, knock off the superiority act. Buying games new doesn't put you on a moral high ground. I've bought 8 new games this year and 1 used. I have a friend that is basically the opposite. Guess what? I'm not better than him. Having more money=/=better person.

its not about having more money
its about spending the money the right way. I often spend a bit more for local producers to survive by not having something luxury around the home. Its all about how you spend the money you have. What you chose to do with it defines how much you care.

Being vague is almost as much fun as this other thing...

i apologise for choosing not to share my spending habits with escapist. You must be mortified.

You make an argument yet give nobody the means to actually argue back.

That isn't arguing, its trolling.

Surely the means to argue back would be a fault in my logic, or an issue with a viewpoint i had raised.

In generally when trying to prove a point you don't leave chinks in your armour, it tends to leave your point weaker.

Surely the weight of any argument lays on the person stating a point then the person trying to refute it.

Ambiguity is a cheap trick. It leads people to making assumptions that you can pick apart and make them lose, instead of arguing your points cleary and let them go under the process of critical thought.

 

[Something Amyss]

Furthermore, if studios are being shut down despite good sales, then it's not really the fault of sales, is it?

Except most of those companies were recent failures. Grin with Bionic Commando and Terminator Salvation, the former considered a "flop." The latter only selling somewhat better.

Bizarre with Blur.

I already covered LA Noir's development, so I won't go there again.

But there is a certain epidemic within the industry. the corporate drive for profit increase is leading to new ways to make more money. It's the only way to keep those stock reports looking impressive. That means trimming devs for a single failure. It also means that games need to do more than okay to merit continuation.

Which does go back to the point you were arguing against. The notion of something being wrong to merit these closures.

Well, the corporations are posting record profits. They're suffering all the way to the bank. The money that would have gone to development is more and more going to CEOs and shareholders.

But it's easier to blame used game sales.

 

[Vibhor]

Is it really worth buying a used copy of la noire, deus ex or resistance 3 for 53$? Remember that not a single penny goes to the developers and you're only making gamestop richer.

Developers don't get a lot of money from the sale any ways. They may get like 10% in royalties(not sure really) but majority of the cash goes to the publishers who are already millionaires. I'd rather support a shop that has helped me more than that greedy publisher who thinks that every customer is a thief.

 

[TitanAtlas]

I buy from retail stores and do not regret a thing... you know what ive found? Timsplitters and metal gear solid a dollar each...

And not from a game retail store, i mean a store like a pawn shop or whatever that was...

I do not regret a thing cuz (1) i cannot find those game anywere, (2) i do not trust with my credit or personnal info on internet so i can't buy them at online stores and (3) cheaper then a goddam game store...

I even bought bioshock 4 days after it came out for 1/4 th of the price...

Feel sorry for the developers, yes, but if i regret doing it? No...

 

[Red-Link]

On point 4) May I introduce you to the used-music store? Walk right in and find CD's, cassettes, vinyls, and what have you all for the low-low price of less than new.

NO! ONLY ITUNES EXISTS! DONT YOU KNOW ANYTHING LOLOLOL

Seriously, though, most of these arguments are based on selectively ignoring things.

Like music stores. Though that one qwas particularly glaring.

Thank you very much for two things. First, thanks for proving to me that I'm not crazy and that non-digital media might actually exist outside of my own fantasy land. I was a bit worried for a bit there, after all, the arguments being presented were just so... air-tight is what I want to say, but I can't bring myself to do it, the sarcasm would color my mood for the rest of the day. Therefore, being serious, I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt that there were some glaring (because you picked the perfect word) holes in the argument.

Second, thank you for not quoting the whole thing, now I have a shorter version to quote if a response crops up (seeing as this guy likes to respond to people). I noticed mine was kind of long, but I'm too lazy to edit it to a shorter form.

 

[Zeriah]

Wahtever.

Annnnnnd that's how the First Sale Doctrine works. Look it up. No other form of media needs money when it comes to second hand sales in order to survive. In fact, how has gaming got this far, considering we've had second hand sales from the word-go, if they are such a problem?

Well, it may just be me but I have a feeling the second hand game sales has definitely grown in the past couple of years. I don't know what it's like in the US, but where I live (Europe) the used sales market has grown substantially in the past 5 years. I honestly can't remember there being a substantial used sales market more than 5 years ago. Especially not as big as it has now become.

Either way, I stick to my point that if I have to choose who to give my money to, I'd rather choose the developer than some gamestore.

Well maybe used game sales would decrease if the fuckers stopped hiking up the price of new games. I refuse to pay $120+ for a video game. They were only $80-$100 a couple of years ago.

By those numbers I'm assuming you are Australian, like myself (or Kiwi, in which case add $15~). It is not the developers that are at fault for those prices, it is the retail stores. The stores order new games for around $50 (or whatever the price that gamestop would pay for games in the US) and sell them for $120 (double what the US stores sell them for) when our dollar is the same. If anything you should be wanting to smite the absurd prices of the aussie retail stores and support the developers instead.

Here are your options as an Australian consumer:
Buy game new for $120 (when it should be going for $60).
Buy game used for $110 (greedy store takes that entire $110 when they should be selling it for $53 like in the US)
Buy game online for $55, all of which goes to the developer and laugh about paying half what you would pay for it used (plus you have supported the industry).

Seriously check this store out http://www.ozgameshop.com/ or http://www.nzgameshop.com/ if you are a New Zealander.

RRP and List Price is set by the publishers.

Are you certain of this? I've seen some retail stores commonly sell the exact same game as EB for $30 less, sometimes even with new games. I mean I know it's RRP but brand new electronic media very rarely go for that much less in one store than another. It is rather common to see Big W sell new games for $80-90 and EB sell them for $120. Either Big W losses $30 on each game or their suppliers sell the games to them for far less than they would have you believe.

Regardless the actual retail prices are based on their suppliers prices, not the RRP. Why would they purchase from a supplier charging them $80 or whatever amount a $120 retail price warrants when they could purchase from a supplier that sells them for $40?

Either way check out those links, it basically doubled the amount of games I can afford to purchase and I support the industry .

Edit just saw your edit: DLC is very rarely region locked, at least on the 360. I've bought tons of games from ozgameshop and never had any problems with DLC. Where you will get issues is when a games multiplayer will lock you into a specific region (will only let you play against European PAL users) so you will have an immense ping. But that is also very rare and can be found with 5 minutes of research.

 

[Xanadu84]

Buying used games is not stupid. It is cheaper and functionally identical to buying new. It is rational, but it is Prisoners Dilemma rational. Ultimately, it will hurt the medium in the long run, but from the perspective of the individual, its the best choice.

Whats stupid is that too many people oppose measures that cut developers in on the secondary market because they don't understand how money works. Lots of abstract idealism and irrelevant metaphors, zero mathematical facts.

 

[Something Amyss]

Money of second hand sales actually DO go to the developer.
What do you think the gamestop uses the money they get from used sales for?
To buy more new copies of new games.

Gamestop doesn't get the copies from new games for free. They buy them off the publisher and sell them with a profit.
The publisher gets his money whether the actual number of games gets sold or not.
With the profit of second hand games, Gamestop can buy more titles and more numbers of games at once.

Not to mention, the prevalence of trade-in specials demonstrates there's something to this business model. People are trading in old games to get new ones.

BUT I would also point out, the markup on new games is pretty low. The games industry has actually created an environment where it doesn't make sense to carry games, for the most part. Games are more or less a toxic asset unless you operate in a "loss leader" format. Wal-Mart, for example, uses that small markup to get you in the store to buy other stuff.

Gamestop uses it to get you in the store to buy used games and accessories. Even accessories aren't great business.

Spiting used game sales is really just spiting the industry in general, because the seller's market would shrink phenomenally without them.

Love it or hate it, it's a natural part of the cycle as long as the game companies want to continue to take such a large piece of the pie on each new sale.

 

[tehroc]

In that case why not stop buying all the time? If you know your just going to burn through a game in a few weeks and trade it in, why not just rent the game over the month through one of the rental services available?

 

[Red-Link]

my point is the fact that they could've had 1 million extra sales, but lost those to the used market. It was simply an example of how the used market is costing devs a lot of money.

By that kind of dodgy accounting they could also claim that it costs them money when people lend games for friends to play. Or have their friends around and let them play the game. A friend lent my brother Assassin's Creed II just recently; both my brother and I played it. Did we just cost Ubisoft two purchases?

no because you weren't paying money to do so, people buying used ARE. And yeah im behind content creators getting money for what they make.

So by your logic it's okay (moral issues aside) to pirate the game because I won't be be spending any money to play the game. Can you spot the fallacy here?

nope. Your not spending money either way. Sure piracy is illegal and you will get roshambo'd for that. But people who pirate EVERYTHING probably weren't going to be a consumer in the first place. I long ago gave up arguing against them because their thieves and theres no rationalizing with them.

Compared to a consumer trying to save a few bucks by giving money to people who have nothing to do with the game. Which is a shame because in doing the decent thing and paying they payed the wrong people, and if more people actually bought first hand the industry would be much healthier, and more risky titles would be being made.

Which is a shame in my eyes.

But by all means you go ahead and save your 5 bucks and watch developers fail. Hope that will be fun for you.

Oh, knock off the superiority act. Buying games new doesn't put you on a moral high ground. I've bought 8 new games this year and 1 used. I have a friend that is basically the opposite. Guess what? I'm not better than him. Having more money=/=better person.

its not about having more money
its about spending the money the right way. I often spend a bit more for local producers to survive by not having something luxury around the home. Its all about how you spend the money you have. What you chose to do with it defines how much you care.

Being vague is almost as much fun as this other thing...

i apologise for choosing not to share my spending habits with escapist. You must be mortified.

You make an argument yet give nobody the means to actually argue back.

That isn't arguing, its trolling.

Surely the means to argue back would be a fault in my logic, or an issue with a viewpoint i had raised.

In generally when trying to prove a point you don't leave chinks in your armour, it tends to leave your point weaker.

Surely the weight of any argument lays on the person stating a point then the person trying to refute it.

Ambiguity is a cheap trick. It leads people to making assumptions that you can pick apart and make them lose, instead of arguing your points cleary and let them go under the process of critical thought.

Also, in a proper debate, it's proper form to note those very chinks in one's armor. For an argument to be persuasive, one must admit to fallibility. It's the Toulmin Model of Argument. Therefore, not only does ambiguity count as cheating in a friendly debate, it counts as losing in a formal meet. Thank you college. I knew I was paying all that money for something, and winning petty arguments on Internet forums must be it!

 

[Rodrigo Girao]

It's kinda stupid to spend $55 on a game you can get new for $60.

It's perfectly reasonable to spend either $5 or $500, depending on rarity, on a game you just can not get new any longer.

Mind you, if publishers find a way to hinder the former, they will hinder the latter as well. And that's unacceptable.

 

[Zyntoxic]

hm, in my experience the used copies are barely cheaper than the unused copies if you buy them at the same store.
it's funny, about a week ago I bought Dragon Age II for the 360, I dispised the game but wanted to try it on a 360 so I thought I might just as well buy it used so bioware don't get any money telling them it was a good game (a drop in the ocean I know, but every sale is required to make a game a best seller) so I went to gamestop and looked at the price, 299 SEK (44,26 USD) a new copy at gamestop costs 400 SEK (49,20 USD) I shook my head and left, at another store that in stockholm I'd say is way bigger than any gamestop in stockholm, I went to see their price, they do not sell used copies but they sold new copies of the signature edition with additional content for 199 SEK (29,45 USD)

so I bought the new copy from this other store, because in the end I dislike what gamestop does more than I dislike the games of bioware.
besides I enjoyed DAII alot more on console than I did on the PC.

this has often been the case with many of the games I've bought, I get new copies cheaper than I get used copies from gamestop.

 

[someonehairy-ish]

I tend to buy stuff new/preorder it but only with games I'm sure I'll like.
The number of new games I buy each year is dwindling pretty massively though.

Eg this year all I've bought is Minecraft, a new version of oblivion (had it on console before) and possibly fable 3. But I sold f3 back again.

Anyways I don't really care about saving a couple of bucks when I'm only purchasing a new game every few months.
As for CDs I tend to hunt out the best possible offers 'cos I get tonnes of em.

 

[ThunderCavalier]

SOMEONE hasn't been watching Jimquisition.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/4568-Online-Passes-Are-Bad-For-Everybody

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/4720-Used-Games-Have-A-Right-To-Exist

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/4745-Fighting-The-Problem-Of-Used-Games

His online persona's a bit of a dick (the Jimquisition one, not the online forum one), but he DOES bring up some good points about Used Games that I hadn't really considered until he brought them up. They aren't some kind of evil force that's putting competitors out of business; they're actually fairly harmless, and most of the damage just comes from publishers trying to circumvent damage that isn't even there.

 

[dickywebster]

Well i buy used games and i have a fairly large game collection, over 220 at last count, so what was the argument again?
I do trade in games, but its usually ones i dont really enjoy enough to keep, which i think has been 4 games in the last 6 years or so.

As for them been stupid, i couldnt get the old classics i couldnt afford when i was younger if you couldnt buy used games and i would have a much smaller collection as most of my games are second hand been a heck of a lot cheaper than the new games.
If i couldnt buy used games, then considering i only have a part time job atm with the economy and all and games been my only real hobby, id probably be able to buy maybe a half dozen games a year and go and find me 6 gd games that you can play for say 15 hours a week for 2 months?
Ok yes i do play my older games a lot too, but itd limit the chances of me getting old games and a lot of the new games im interested in. I really dont see why people are so against used games, unless they have no problems with money and can buy all the new games they like at full price, which most people i know couldnt do if they wanted too.

 

[bauke67]

How about buying them online ánd second-hand, now that'll save you some money.

 

[Sectan]

This just in: If a developer doesn't make a game that an individual wants to keep, it's not the individual's fault if they want to sell it. If a game is good people will keep it and keep playing it.

 

[Iwata]

This just in: If a developer doesn't make a game that an individual wants to keep, it's not the individual's fault if they want to sell it. If a game is good people will keep it and keep playing it.

Absolutely. I don't sign a contract saying I have to keep the game when I buy it. If I want to sell it back for whatever reason, I'm more than entitled to do it, and it's good that the industry has a mechanism that lets me trade it back in for more games, rather than me selling it to a friend or some pawn store.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

You mean buying new is stupid, over priced disposable entertainment is not worth the asking price 80% of the time.

Also I can't afford a 60$ game but I can get acouple games for 10-20$ a pop, they be a few months old but worth the cost, hell the way wholesale works you can buy new at used prices in less than half a year sometimes so all in all the game item has already made all the profit for the IP owner it can possibly get.

Most games are bought new and used games take less than 25% of new sales.

We have a right to resell consumable IP's tho I would not mind a 10% tax on used IP sale, digital storage items and the internet then expand fair use as so we go back to a time before the IP act of 96 as well as seek to protect the non profit attempting posting/distribution of IP items.