BvS - Batman has been Batman for 30 and still an urban legend?

[SonOfVoorhees]

Read this and it could be just a rumour but it was interesting.

"My sources indicate that when BvS opens Batman has existed for close to thirty years, which would place Wayne in his 50s (which is why I expected more grey in Affleck?s hair). In this version Batman is still an urban legend, a creature of the night, and no one has ever taken his picture. But he?s had plenty of adventures, and the Batcave includes a memorial centered around a tattered Robin costume."

Now an old and cranky Batman could be good, could explain why he would get annoyed with Superman. Especially if he tried hard to stay hidden for so long and suddenly there is a super powered alien flying around. This does intrigue me and how he will deal with other heros that are younger. Wonder Women would be half his age give or take a few years. Also you have been honing your skills for years and all of a sudden you are irrelevant. Is the issue that he is thrown into the lime light and thats what enables characters like Joker etc to appear?

Can a Batman with 30+ years experience be able to beat a Superman (MoS1) who lack experience?

If not then there is always this.


So what are peoples thoughts?

 

[Hero in a half shell]

It's an interesting take on the character that shows at the very least that they've understood The Dark Knight Returns, and hopefully they've put a lot more thought into how they are going to pull this movie off.


I still think that a direct confrontation fight will simply not work in this movie, as the live action aspect will just emphasis the power difference, so the inconsistencies will be a lot more noticeable when Batman magically is able to take punches that minutes before leveled buildings, and land punches and hurt Superman when minutes before he shrugged off artillery fire and dodged bullets.

Let's just hope these guys know what they are doing.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I don't think Batman should ever be able to beat Superman, period. Unless he goes skinny-dipping in liquid kryptonite or something like that.

 

[Super Cyborg]

The first thing is that they need to build the rules of how Batman works, and if they didn't do it in the first one, how the weaknesses for Super Man work. If they decide that Kryptonite in this universe is magical, and can affect superman instantly, like the JLA show, then it could be feasible. If Super Man is shown to have no weaknesses, and there isn't established rules about how things work, then it will be a mess, and something can just happen out of no where for Batman to win. They have to establish the rules of this universe, so people won't complain about how things went down when it happens.

 

[Silvanus]

Unless you start writing bad Batman fanfic (yes, I consider that comic just fanfiction) Batman does not stand a bloody chance. Sups just lasers his fucking ass from the orbit. Batman has the same chances as a baby.

Batman has defeated Superman at other points in the comics, as well, you know. He beat him in Hush, when Supes was controlled by Poison Ivy. In Tower of Babel, Superman was also defeated by (the unpowered) Talia al Ghul, who was following Batman's plan.

Physical strength isn't everything, even in a fight.

 

[LaoJim]

I don't think Batman should ever be able to beat Superman, period.

Au contraire, the question of how Batman can end up defeating (or nearly defeating) Superman is the only really interesting part of any BvS scenario.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Batman should never beat somebody as strong, fast, and invulnerable as Superman, and all of that 'planning ahead' plot armor is just hokey.

Batman has gadgets? Doesn't matter, Superman is invulnerable. Fight over.

Batman has a Batmobile? Superman throws it into space. Fight over.

Batman has a Batplane? Superman flies right through it like a Krytonian missile. Fight over.

Batman has power armor? Doesn't matter, Superman can crush damn near anything. Fight Over.

Batman shows up with kryptonite ring? Superman laser-eyes Batman's arm off and blows it away with super breath before de-spining him. Fight over.

Wonder Woman, on the other hand, probably stands a chance. Maybe Aquaman too, if he's anything like Namor.

 

[senordesol]

According to the storyline in the Dark Knight Returns:

Spoiler

Superman takes a direct hit from a nuclear missile, which (somehow) causes a nuclear winter -thus blocking his access to the sun, he then gets shot with a kryptonite arrow; THEN gets his ass kicked by Batman.

Basically, Bats can only kick Superman while he down to even have a shot at 'winning'

 

[EternallyBored]

Batman should never beat somebody as strong, fast, and invulnerable as Superman, and all of that 'planning ahead' plot armor is just hokey.

Batman has gadgets? Doesn't matter, Superman is invulnerable. Fight over.

Batman has a Batmobile? Superman throws it into space. Fight over.

Batman has a Batplane? Superman flies right through it like a Krytonian missile. Fight over.

Batman has power armor? Doesn't matter, Superman can crush damn near anything. Fight Over.

Batman shows up with kryptonite ring? Superman laser-eyes Batman's arm off and blows it away with super breath before de-spining him. Fight over.

Wonder Woman, on the other hand, probably stands a chance. Maybe Aquaman too, if he's anything like Namor.

Superman's not actually invulnerable, I don't know about Movie Superman, since it hasn't come up, but for a long time, Superman basically gets his ass kicked against magic and high level magic using villains, to the point that in the new 52, using something enchanted is enough to completely override Superman's invulnerability, he gets taken down by a Wonderwoman villain with magic teeth.

It never really comes up in Batman versus Superman fights, because thematically, Batman is a tech hero and canonically is not really apt to use magic except as a last resort, but the more magic based heroes have used that particular weakness to either disable Superman, or use high level magic as an excuse for why Superman isn't showing up to help.

Depending on the writer, the severity of the weakness can vary, sort of like how weak kryptonite makes Superman can vary as well. Still, if we take EVERYTHING in the DC universe into account, there are a number of ways Batman could fuck up Superman, people just like using overcomplicated plots because that's Batman's schtick, and DKR did it that way.

 

[Evonisia]

We all know that Batman will just be using calm words to take down Superman, and during the 0.3 seconds of the fight before Superman could literally split Batman into pieces, Wonder Woman shows up and kicks both of their arses. I mean, she has to do at least something in that film.

Still, the interesting question on how Batman could beat Superman becomes less interesting when you reduce the chance of him being able to do it (I know that sounds weird). Then again in movies, being in your fifties basically means you are twenty seven but with grey hair.

 

[DefunctTheory]

I just want to point out to everyone who's saying that batman can never beat Superman, that Supermans power levels are hardly consistent over the years. His strength ranges from being able to lift a couple hundred tons to being able to bench press the planet. A large quantity of the times Batman beats Superman is in continuities where he's less 'Physical God,' and more 'Monstrously Strong.'

That being said, the Superman in man of Steel is obviously a pretty damn strong version of Sups, and I doubt they'll even try to have Batman take on Superman directly. I have to assume that any fight between Superman and Batman will be preceded by a) Superman realizing Batman is, at the very least, not evil, and thus is unwilling to go completely bananas on him, and b) Batman will use Kryptonite in a more clever, and more realistically effective way then pulling it out of his belt and swinging it about.

EDIT: Also, I love 'Badman.' Thanks, OP!

 

[Thunderous Cacophony]

Unless you start writing bad Batman fanfic (yes, I consider that comic just fanfiction) Batman does not stand a bloody chance. Sups just lasers his fucking ass from the orbit. Batman has the same chances as a baby.

Batman has defeated Superman at other points in the comics, as well, you know. He beat him in Hush, when Supes was controlled by Poison Ivy. In Tower of Babel, Superman was also defeated by (the unpowered) Talia al Ghul, who was following Batman's plan.

Physical strength isn't everything, even in a fight.

Batman only ever wins when Superman is holding back. I don't know about Tower of Babel, but in Hush he is deliberately not obliterating Batman (probably resisting Ivy's control)- he freezes only the Kryptonite ring (and attached hand) rather than the whole Batman, he doesn't use his superspeed to rip apart Bats on entry (no way Batman hits Superman in the face, even with the ring, unless Superman deliberately doesn't move), and somehow Batman does some elaborate dodge so that Superman hits an electrical box instead of Batman, and the relatively small voltage causes Supes problems.

Even then, Superman was about to crush Batman with a car when he realises Lois is in danger and snaps out of it. Physical strength isn't everything, but the massive advantages Superman has means that he would annihilate Batman in a straight-up fight, and I wouldn't bet on Batman to win a battle of wits against I guy who regularly builds robot decoys and other marvels.

OT: Old Batman is an interesting way of handling the inevitable tension. Hopefully they'll let Superman become the young, optimistic counterweight (because there's no way in hell they'll let Batman fill that role). It does bring up the question of super-villains, though; has Batman been fighting street crime and mobsters all these years, or are there established evil groups out there, possibly with super-powered members (and if so, was was Clark being an alien so out there for people in Man of Steel)?

 

[TerranV]

Unless you start writing bad Batman fanfic (yes, I consider that comic just fanfiction) Batman does not stand a bloody chance. Sups just lasers his fucking ass from the orbit. Batman has the same chances as a baby.

Batman has defeated Superman at other points in the comics, as well, you know. He beat him in Hush, when Supes was controlled by Poison Ivy. In Tower of Babel, Superman was also defeated by (the unpowered) Talia al Ghul, who was following Batman's plan.

Physical strength isn't everything, even in a fight.

I never read Hush so can't comment on that but in Tower of Babel, Talia used a special type of synthesised kryptonite to cause Superman to lose control of his powers or some such nonsense. It wasn't a fight.

It doesn't look like kryptonite even exists in the Man of Steel universe so that option is moot anyway.

 

[JimB]

In the New 52, using something enchanted is enough to completely override Superman's invulnerability. He gets taken down by a Wonder Woman villain with magic teeth.

In the first issue of Justice League Dark, Superman is rendered useless by a magic wind blowing conjured teeth at him. The conjuration makes them bypass his invulnerability. On the other hand, Wonder Woman being a demi-god--being half magic by blood--is apparently not enough for a one-shot kill. The rules are unevenly enforced according to an author's whim.

 

[verdant monkai]

I like to imagine them about the same age. Batman sort of being a mentor to Superman seems wrong and just lame.

The Justice league cartoon got it right. The main heroes are all roughly the same age, like its their time to shine. Whereas the kids are in the teen titans and the old timers step in now and then for wisdom and experience.

 

[EternallyBored]

In the New 52, using something enchanted is enough to completely override Superman's invulnerability. He gets taken down by a Wonder Woman villain with magic teeth.

In the first issue of Justice League Dark, Superman is rendered useless by a magic wind blowing conjured teeth at him. The conjuration makes them bypass his invulnerability. On the other hand, Wonder Woman being a demi-god--being half magic by blood--is apparently not enough for a one-shot kill. The rules are unevenly enforced according to an author's whim.

This is very much true, Superman's weaknesses vary a lot from author to author, both his vulnerability to magic and kryptonite seem to range from "slightly more effective than normal attacks" up to "pretty much bypasses all his defenses and/or completely neutralizes him".

It's why these versus debates always fall flat with superman, he's been around so long and written so many ways it's impossible to nail down his strengths and weaknesses to one across the board level.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

In the New 52, using something enchanted is enough to completely override Superman's invulnerability. He gets taken down by a Wonder Woman villain with magic teeth.

In the first issue of Justice League Dark, Superman is rendered useless by a magic wind blowing conjured teeth at him. The conjuration makes them bypass his invulnerability. On the other hand, Wonder Woman being a demi-god--being half magic by blood--is apparently not enough for a one-shot kill. The rules are unevenly enforced according to an author's whim.

This is very much true, Superman's weaknesses vary a lot from author to author, both his vulnerability to magic and kryptonite seem to range from "slightly more effective than normal attacks" up to "pretty much bypasses all his defenses and/or completely neutralizes him".

It's why these versus debates always fall flat with superman, he's been around so long and written so many ways it's impossible to nail down his strengths and weaknesses to one across the board level.

Not only that but how smart Superman is also varies from writer to writer and between comics and cartoons. In some iterations superman is brilliant and has a perfect understanding of how the universe works because his super vision allows him to see the movement of atoms and stuff like that, and in other iterations he doesn't understand why moving the earth would be a terrible idea that would kill everyone on it. That's actually one of the reasons that Batman beating Superman is sometimes plausible, not because Superman can't just overpower Batman, he absolutely can, but because in some iterations Superman just isn't smart enough to use his powers in the most effective ways, and Batman manages to take advantage of that.

 

[octafish]

Meh. The Wall can take them both. Unless she is that skinny imposter, but then again that isn't the real Amanda Waller, is it Rich Boy?