BvS - Batman has been Batman for 30 and still an urban legend?

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Drake Barrow

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JimB said:
EternallyBored said:
In the New 52, using something enchanted is enough to completely override Superman's invulnerability. He gets taken down by a Wonder Woman villain with magic teeth.
In the first issue of Justice League Dark, Superman is rendered useless by a magic wind blowing conjured teeth at him. The conjuration makes them bypass his invulnerability. On the other hand, Wonder Woman being a demi-god--being half magic by blood--is apparently not enough for a one-shot kill. The rules are unevenly enforced according to an author's whim.
I can't vouch for New 52, as I haven't been following it, but the rough rule seems to be that direct magical attack (enchanted weapon, spell) is different than simply being powered by magic. Supes has thrown down with Captain Marvel and Black Adam, and doesn't get pulped like a normal human would when he's hit. However, his invulnerability isn't as effective against a magic-powered punch as it would be against a 'generic' superstrong hit.

I'm sure there are exceptions to this, as you pointed out writing for superheroes is usually inconsistent (and that goes for most of them, not just Superman or Batman). That's just how it seems to have been handled in general.
 

Lalo Lomeli

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Batman could never beat Superman in a fight, and for that Batman is better.

In the Man of Steel movie and a lot of the superman mythos, supes is kind of like a god, and Batman is just a man, a man who never gives up.

And this man, it's going to use every inch of wit, technology, and streght that he has, for a battle that he's never going to win; he's going there willing to die, while Superman is going to try not to break him too bad.

Now, this could only work if they have a good reason to fight. If Batman is going to give his life to ascend to the level of a god just to punch him for a mere misunderstanding.
 

Silvanus

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TerranV said:
I never read Hush so can't comment on that but in Tower of Babel, Talia used a special type of synthesised kryptonite to cause Superman to lose control of his powers or some such nonsense. It wasn't a fight.
Thunderous Cacophony said:
Even then, Superman was about to crush Batman with a car when he realises Lois is in danger and snaps out of it. Physical strength isn't everything, but the massive advantages Superman has means that he would annihilate Batman in a straight-up fight, and I wouldn't bet on Batman to win a battle of wits against I guy who regularly builds robot decoys and other marvels.
Why does it have to be direct fisticuffs? Batman uses his intelligence to beat a lot of his adversaries-- and there's no reason we have to assume that Batman will be fighting Superman simply with his fists in the new film, either.
 

xaszatm

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Silvanus said:
TerranV said:
I never read Hush so can't comment on that but in Tower of Babel, Talia used a special type of synthesised kryptonite to cause Superman to lose control of his powers or some such nonsense. It wasn't a fight.
Thunderous Cacophony said:
Even then, Superman was about to crush Batman with a car when he realises Lois is in danger and snaps out of it. Physical strength isn't everything, but the massive advantages Superman has means that he would annihilate Batman in a straight-up fight, and I wouldn't bet on Batman to win a battle of wits against I guy who regularly builds robot decoys and other marvels.
Why does it have to be direct fisticuffs? Batman uses his intelligence to beat a lot of his adversaries-- and there's no reason we have to assume that Batman will be fighting Superman simply with his fists in the new film, either.
We're talking about a guy who can take a nuke to the face. Hell, the "example" everyone uses in The Dark Knight Returns doesn't really work because...

He doesn't physically defeat him. Sure, he gets a couple of good punches in with his gadgets but 1. Superman is still holding back because he wants to take Batman alive and 2. Batman only "wins" because he tricks Superman that he committed suicide. Hell, that doesn't really work because Superman knows he's being tricked and allows it to happen because he believes in Batman.

Superman is as intelligent as Batman in addition to being infinitely stronger. Batman is only going to win a fight because Superman allows him to.
 

Vausch

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LaoJim said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
I don't think Batman should ever be able to beat Superman, period.
Au contraire, the question of how Batman can end up defeating (or nearly defeating) Superman is the only really interesting part of any BvS scenario.
He never has and never will. Batman and Superman have fought at least 11 times I can think of in comics. Batman never wins unless Frank Miller or Doug Moench is writing and I don't count those because they're non-canon. That and Miller is an awful writer and person and wrote Superman horribly OoC for TDKR and TDKSA.

 

EternallyBored

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xaszatm said:
Silvanus said:
TerranV said:
I never read Hush so can't comment on that but in Tower of Babel, Talia used a special type of synthesised kryptonite to cause Superman to lose control of his powers or some such nonsense. It wasn't a fight.
Thunderous Cacophony said:
Even then, Superman was about to crush Batman with a car when he realises Lois is in danger and snaps out of it. Physical strength isn't everything, but the massive advantages Superman has means that he would annihilate Batman in a straight-up fight, and I wouldn't bet on Batman to win a battle of wits against I guy who regularly builds robot decoys and other marvels.
Why does it have to be direct fisticuffs? Batman uses his intelligence to beat a lot of his adversaries-- and there's no reason we have to assume that Batman will be fighting Superman simply with his fists in the new film, either.
We're talking about a guy who can take a nuke to the face. Hell, the "example" everyone uses in The Dark Knight Returns doesn't really work because...

He doesn't physically defeat him. Sure, he gets a couple of good punches in with his gadgets but 1. Superman is still holding back because he wants to take Batman alive and 2. Batman only "wins" because he tricks Superman that he committed suicide. Hell, that doesn't really work because Superman knows he's being tricked and allows it to happen because he believes in Batman.

Superman is as intelligent as Batman in addition to being infinitely stronger. Batman is only going to win a fight because Superman allows him to.
We're also talking about a guy that's been killed in the past, and has been one-shot disabled or nearly killed on multiple occassions by high level magicians, Superman loses or wins based entirely on how he's written, hell, his ability to tank a nuke with or without damage changes depending on how he's written and what the story requires.

The DKR fight was a bit convoluted and contrived, but I mostly put that on the writer, Frank Miller has a serious boner for Batman and tends to make a lot of his DC universe stories revolve around how great Batman is.

Whoever wins is whoever the writer says wins, and a competent writer can make a good case for either Batman or Superman winning depending on the story and setup, the DC universe has too much variability in its feats and powerlevels to completely bar one hero from taking out the other if the story requires it.
 

TristanBelmont

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senordesol said:
According to the storyline in the Dark Knight Returns:

Superman takes a direct hit from a nuclear missile, which (somehow) causes a nuclear winter -thus blocking his access to the sun, he then gets shot with a kryptonite arrow; THEN gets his ass kicked by Batman.

Basically, Bats can only kick Superman while he down to even have a shot at 'winning'
Welcome to the only argument you need against the people who argue Batman>Superman in a fight.

The scenario of Batman beating Superman is ridiculous.

BUT HEY AT LEAST THEY HAVE THEIR INJUSTICE PILLS RIGHT GUYS
 

FPLOON

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So... Does that mean that Batman would outsmart Superman like he's the Spike Spiegel of superheroes during their little fight in a movie that will still not dent the already "who would win in a fight" meta battle that has been going on for YEARS basically?

OT: There better be a VERY GOOD explanation for Batman keeping his "urban legend" status alive and well for 30+ years without any proof of his existence... I mean, either he's smarter than we're giving him credit for or the police, the bad guys and, basically, the people of Gotham that stupid to not be able to spot him long enough to take a good photo with a smart phone, for example...
 

Therumancer

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Johnny Novgorod said:
I don't think Batman should ever be able to beat Superman, period. Unless he goes skinny-dipping in liquid kryptonite or something like that.
My answer to this as a major nerd is simply to point out that Superman's greatest enemy is Lex Luthor who is an ordinary human. Lex has actually beaten Superman on a few occasions (and come bloody close a whole lot, as that is the whole point of an arch-enemy and the dramatic tension in their battles)), where he has needed assistance, or Lex has needed to give up the victory for some reason or other.

Strictly speaking if it was a straight fight between Batman and Superman, then no, Batman wouldn't have a prayer. On the other hand if Batman is presumed to know as much about Superman as Lex does, and has time to plan and take the initiative, then in theory he could beat him through super-science and the like. Granted in acting this way Batman would be acting as more of a mastermind than in a traditional "Batman" fashion, but he has the capabilities.

In the "Dark Knight Returns" the whole thing was leading up to Superman throwing the fight (apparently going down right before Bruce's heart gives out). Superman points out as the climax he knew Batman wasn't dead, and apparently he could have gotten up an finished him at any point, but chose not to.

That said, in theory, if he had enough time to get ready, Batman probably has enough science and technology to build a battlesuit able to go toe to toe with Superman, Lex has done it, and typically uses one in games and such where he shows up to do action. "Luthor" the good version of Lex from a parallel reality also uses battle armor, and is able to continually survive attempts by that world's Superman and Justice League to annihilate him.

If they really wanted to get cheezy about things, they could always have Batman show up with Kryptonite powered battle armor. In DC comics there is a cyborg called Metallo whose one big claim to fame is that he has a tendency to take down Superman due to running off of a Kryptonite power supply. In movie style when they introduce Kryptonite (assuming they plan to since I'm guessing that will be a plot element to equalize things) they could always drop the Metallo name by having it be the name of the project/development code name Batman bases his armor off of, assuming they go in that direction. They wouldn't be using the character, but it would be a nod to comics fans, and a reminder that it's perfectly canon for things like that to work against Supes.

Of course at the same time, my basic opinion is that if they want to have Superman threatened by brains, planning, and technology, someone should just do Lex Luthor right (who classically is a mad scientist himself). That doesn't get as much hype as Batman Vs. Superman, but honestly given that I can't think of a single really good Lex Luthor who struck me as being a Superman-Level threat in the comics throughout the live action cinema, it's a big part of the mythos that would carry a lot of weight when it's done right.

At the end of the day as far as capabilities and skill sets go, Batman and Lex are very similar. It's just that Batman takes a direct, hands-on approach and does stuff himself, Lex can fight with gadgets and stuff when he needs to, but prefers to stay behind the scenes or not get directly involved, and send minions to do his work for him. Both are ungodly rich, both are scientific and technological geniuses (who also employ other geniuses one way or another), and both tend to be very dangerous in a personal confrontation. Batman is doubtlessly better in a straight fist fight, but Lex is the kind of guy whose likely to have a personal force field and pocket death ray at any given moment (in RPG terms there would be huge overlap, with some slight differences in how they spent their points on a personal level).
 

Silvanus

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xaszatm said:
We're talking about a guy who can take a nuke to the face. Hell, the "example" everyone uses in The Dark Knight Returns doesn't really work because...

He doesn't physically defeat him. Sure, he gets a couple of good punches in with his gadgets but 1. Superman is still holding back because he wants to take Batman alive and 2. Batman only "wins" because he tricks Superman that he committed suicide. Hell, that doesn't really work because Superman knows he's being tricked and allows it to happen because he believes in Batman.
In some appearances he can take a nuke to the face; in others, he can't. Comics are not very consistent, with the hundreds of writers there've been over the years.
 

Fieldy409_v1legacy

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All these people crying that Batman cant beat Superman? All Batman needs is Kryptonite, how many times has Lex Luthor nearly beaten Superman using trickery? Supermans big strong and loud and yes he could kill you instantly from space but if you know his honor code then you know how hes going to behave in a fight, He wont throw a punch that could kill Batman ever. All you need is some clever science to get around his superhuman senses and a good ambush involving kryptonite. What does Batman specilise in? Science and Tactics.