Calfiornia Supreme Court Upholds Gay Marriage Ban
- Thread starter Thanatos34
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While that is a badass quote, I don't think that's the one I'm remembering... though perhaps I have the wrong person entirely. Ah well: the point is made, if you are unwilling to stand up for your rights you do not deserve them.Thanatos34 said:
im one of those "conservative Christians", well not really, i voted for Obama, and ive never seen the inside of a church except for a wedding or two. but im a christian anyhow. im also anti-gay marriage based on Christian teachings.MGT-Orion said:
having gotten that out of the way ill say this though. im not shaking in my boots, ive taken a history class or two in my life and i relize that issues like this that seem to be the be-all end-all of existance seldom turn out to be. i dont think God will suddenly be cast aside if gays get married, i dont think the US will fall apart and sink into some biblical abyss, or that God will smite the sinners. in fact i pray he WONT smite the sinners for i am one.
i dont belive that marraige is between anyone but a man and a woman. no law or court ruling will ever change my opinion on this. if that makes me full of hate or a bigot in your eyes so be it. i also belive that we live in a system of laws made by men and if that system of laws says after due process and the voice of the majority that gays are allowed to be united as normal married people are than so be it. render unto ceasers and all that.
if asked to decide the issue myself i would forbid it, if asked my opinion ill clearly state im against it, if asked to vote ill vote not to allow it, if im outvoted ........... ill live with it.
now i say too you and all others like you, if you want YOUR opinion treated with respect you obviously feel is due, than treat ours the same way.
you will also notice that at not time in my reply did i add lines that say something like 'you fuckin homos wont rest till the world is blowing rainbows out our asses will you" or any other words to that effect. so ease off the insulting and hostility to us "conservative Christians" if you please and act with the same respect you wish to get in return.
why do you think that its just the 'church' that is the issue here though darthmath? as far as i know 'churches' dont cast votes. do you assume that all people who attend a church are somehow forced, (at gunpoint perhaps?) to vote as the church wishes them too? or is it taht people who are stupid enough to belive in a God in the first place certianly cant be smart enough to decide this issue by themselves and are only capable of following their preachers in a mindless mob?
you do yourself a mistake if you think that this is so. if nothing else im quite certian that the 52% of those that voted in the california prop 8 vote against gay marriage werent all members of 'the church'. could it be that the majority of those 52% just didnt like the idea, and what a given church thought about it didnt even enter into the issue for them once they were in the voting booth? could it also be that a good portion of the 48% that supported it just didnt care enough too oppose it, rather than supporting it with zeal as is sometimes professed by pro-gay groups? should we be saying that those 48% were all members of a subversive pro-gay 'movement' aimed at bringing the downfall of civilization?
of corse not. id be willing to say that the vast majority of this people voting on this issue dont really feel all that strong about it either way. its just a few percent at either extream that makes all this noise and thunder. 'the churches' may be anti-gay marriage, thats not an unreasonable position since the Bible clearly states its a sin, but i find it laughable that you or anyone else would seek to give 'the church' so much authority in our society. good lord if they had THAT much authority than abortion would certianly be illegal by now wouldnt it?
unless your saying that 'the church' has the authority to force its members to vote against gay marriage propositions but lack the authority to force them to vote against the legal murder of unborn children.
somehow i dont think even this twisted version of what you call 'the church' could possably screw up their prioritys THAT much.
you do yourself a mistake if you think that this is so. if nothing else im quite certian that the 52% of those that voted in the california prop 8 vote against gay marriage werent all members of 'the church'. could it be that the majority of those 52% just didnt like the idea, and what a given church thought about it didnt even enter into the issue for them once they were in the voting booth? could it also be that a good portion of the 48% that supported it just didnt care enough too oppose it, rather than supporting it with zeal as is sometimes professed by pro-gay groups? should we be saying that those 48% were all members of a subversive pro-gay 'movement' aimed at bringing the downfall of civilization?
of corse not. id be willing to say that the vast majority of this people voting on this issue dont really feel all that strong about it either way. its just a few percent at either extream that makes all this noise and thunder. 'the churches' may be anti-gay marriage, thats not an unreasonable position since the Bible clearly states its a sin, but i find it laughable that you or anyone else would seek to give 'the church' so much authority in our society. good lord if they had THAT much authority than abortion would certianly be illegal by now wouldnt it?
unless your saying that 'the church' has the authority to force its members to vote against gay marriage propositions but lack the authority to force them to vote against the legal murder of unborn children.
somehow i dont think even this twisted version of what you call 'the church' could possably screw up their prioritys THAT much.
I think the court should be able to overturn a law if it's against the constitution, which in this case, it seems to be.manaman said:
It's denying civil liberty.
Though you are right about the whole support dying out thing.
Civil liberties are protections for people against their government. Not rights. They are limits set on the government so that it may not over step its bounds. Telling the supreme court to over turn the prop 8 for civil liberties is well irony. They should not be able to exactly for the reason you want them to.ucciolord1 said:
Yeah there is an over lap between liberties and rights. As in the protections from the government illegally taking your property, jailing you, killing you without reason, etc. Can be said as the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Basically this all boils down to is if you do not support it let your congress rep know. Get action started. Sign a petition, donate money to a support group in favor of it. Do something other then complain about it. That is democracy in action.
You know what, no... I refuse to treat your opinion with respect because it is based on misunderstanding and idiocy. Let's get back to that later.Wyatt said:
You probably aren't the type of person I'm targeting; you just want to defend the conservative Christian viewpoint, which is admirable. But what you don't know is that I spent 13 years of my life having evangelical teachings shoved down my throat. I know all the angles, all the arguments, everything. I have since stepped out of the "box" I was mentally placed in and learned more about the world around me, which more Christians desperately need to do.
You talk about Christian teachings... there is a few passages I can remember in the Old Testament (where most anti-gay texts come from) that say not to eat pig or quail. Do we eat those animals today? You betcha. You know why? Back then, eating pigs and quail would most likely kill you. But you know what? It's a brand new era. We eat a lot of pig and quail because we have technology and other things to ensure we won't die. The lesson here: social norms change over long periods of time when you factor in modern technology and an increase of knowledge. I think this could apply directly to what Christians teach about homosexuality. I don't think it's a big deal like it's made out to be.
In some ways, you're completely missing the point. You took some of my words to an extreme end, which shows the weakness of your argument. The point is that religious teachings should not interfere with our rights. No one is being maimed or harmed by gays getting married, so why shouldn't they be able to?
You know what, on second thought, just don't read this. I would rather you stay in your little box where you believe everything the church tells you. If you can't see outside the box, then for God's sake, leave room for people who are willing to see homosexuals as equals.
well now this whole argument has been done to death and then some. i was involved in a 40 something page thread about this issue before/during and after the vote on prop 8 itself and let me tell you that it was well and truly thrashed out by both sides. and by people who made their point on pro-gay marraige much better than you seem to be able too, so i wont waste any time debating with you on the specifics. especialy not about religion. the Bible says being gay is a sin period. it cant be argued or ignored. the Bible also said that God created Adam and then Eve to be the mate of Adam, not Adam, then Eve then Steve then Jessica just so we can mix and match as we see fit. again though besides the point. furthermore, im a sinner myself and ill stand judgment for those sins and as i understand it God doesnt much care if your a homosexual, or a lier, or a thief, but what i wont do is compound my shame by refusing to accept that my sin is wrong. and i wont be silent and just acept the idea that sin is ok and especialy that sin is to be not only accepted but endorsed and enshrined and something to be proud of. again besides the real point.MGT-Orion said:
the real point is this. in california there are laws allready on the books, they are called the domestic partnership laws. they offer gay couples the EXACT same legal rights as straight couples. so what does that leave us with now? ill tell you what it leaves us with, a gay agenda that wants the law to FORCE their acceptance on everyone. the agenda has at its root the idea that if we CALL black white than sooner or later people will start thinking black IS white. meaning if we call gay couples married they will be 'just like' straight couples.
not ....... gunna ......... happen. we arent alike, we wont ever BE alike. and while im certianly ok with civil unions laws. in fact id support them if asked for everyone in the nation im not going to support ripping apart a pillar of society that has stood since history was recorded for the first time just to give a very very very small percentage of our population that allready HAS the same legal rights as everyone else the right to say that black is white.
also i dont think we are equils, its not a question of equality. we are different so by default we CANT be equil any more than an apple is equal to an orange. i dont think im BETTER than you but you sure as fuck arent better than i am either. you want to be gay, have at it. no one is stoping you that i know of, if you want the same legal protections for you and your partner that straight married couples have, again im all for it. you want to try and pevert and subvert a long standing pillar of human community in the name of some fantom 'equality' that you wont ever have anyhow because of something that i can only think is some twisted form of punishment you want too inflict on the rest of society because your gay. well now then, we are gunna fight.
you got the legal right to be homosexual, you have the same legal protections that married couples have, but thats not enough is it?
why not i wonder? perhaps you could clue me in on why you think homosexual coupoes need to be called married? what possable reason could their be .............
on second though save your time and mine and dont bother trying to come up with a story. cause see even us 'christian right' arent quite so stupid that we cant see the obvious when it hits us in the face.
on a more good hearted note though you DID make me laugh out loud in your last post when you said that Christians are 'scared' of gay marriage. whats to be scared of? you wont ever be married in the eyes of any christian anyhow, no matter what the law of man may or may not say on the topic.
id like to say i wish you luck but i dont. I AM sorry for you though, belive it or not i DO understand why this is such an issue, i do understand what it must be like to be forever an outsider, or too feel like one anyhow, and i do understand this driving need for acceptance by your society for your choices, and i do understand why you might hate that society for making you an outcast for what you are and want to wreck it in order to make room for your kind. if i was gay i would do nothing else. i can understand you, but i dont support this agenda that seeks to destroy marriage for the sake of a few members of society that wont ever gain the acceptance they crave no matter what happens on this issue.
even if the laws changed tommorow you would still wake up gay and i wouldnt. you will still face the world as a homosexual and i wont, you will still have to live inside your own skin. destroying marriage wont change that.
and that is for me the saddest part of this whole thing.
I guess you're right.manaman said:
But complaining's easy.
Though it's not really the government's fault, prop 8 does infringe homosexuals' rights to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. They can't get married...
Slow down junior... First of all, you make the assumption that I am gay, which is not true. I have been married to my wife for 3 years. I would just like to see justice done: allow all American citizens to have the same rights. Secondly, you assume that homosexuality is a sin. I don't think that's true. But look what it's caused- you hate homosexuals. Because you've believed that it is a sin, you outright hate homosexuals, and you want to poke fun at them and laugh at them because you think they "will burn in hell". What has God taught us but love and understanding? You take the "word of God" and twist it into an attack. How typical...Wyatt said:
And talk about the integrity of marriage. I don't see any integrity in the high divorce rates in America, none at all.
Thirdly, domestic partnerships are not the same as marriages, and they sometimes take much longer periods of time to take effect. They are for people who don't want to get married, but homosexuals WANT to get married. They have the same feelings of love and companionship, which you misconstrue as "perverted". Grow up, will ya?
You just have your head stuck so far up your ass, you can't see out of your own little bubble. You really are scared that letting homosexuals marry will destroy or "wreck" marriage; quit lying to yourself. Marriage should be a union of two people who love each other, no matter what the odds or troubles in life. Why can't gays and lesbians be able to solidify their love for each other? You can't see that they are human, you prefer to judge and condemn them... which is God's territory, not YOURS. You don't speak for God; NO ONE on this earth does. And don't hide behind your shoddy interpretations of the Bible. If you really knew anything about the Bible, you wouldn't be using it as a shield for your beliefs.
Now, if you have anything else interesting to say, I welcome your best.
if your not gay thats fine, just apply everything i said to you to a more general 'you' that would be gay. the points i made still remain. as far as justice being done, it was. gays have the same legal rights as straight couples and the majority vote was upheld by the court. there is no lack of justice anyplace. gays arent denighed the same legal rights as anyone else, nor was the voice of the majority overturned in our democratic society. id say it worked out fine all hands around.MGT-Orion said:
when did i say anyone was going to burn in hell? twisting words? i think you need to re-read my posts on the subject. not only did i NOT 'poke fun at' gays because of their sin, i very clearly stated that the sin of homosexuality is no better than lieing or theft or any OTHER sin i myself have commited. what i DID say is that when you denigh your sin IS a sin than you are making a mistake.
and finaly i dont hate gays. as a generaly rule i dont think much about the subject. i never did untill it was forced on me by the attempt to destroy an institution that i hold dear.
you would do well to listen to me here because im NOT some wacko, nut job, anti-gay freak, runing around with a bible in one hand and my AK-47 in the other, screaming "KILL EM ALL" in the name of Jesus. im an average middle of the road, American. i dont bat an eye lash at a persons sexual choices as long as they dont effect me. but its more than clear that in the case of gaty marriage that this is nothing more than an attempt to get the law to FORCE acceptance of gays on everyone.
quite simply it annoys me. you dont gain acceptance by FORCING it on people. my position is this. as long as ANY sub-group in a democracy has equil protection under the law than that by default must be the end of it. when you try and use the law to force acceptance of a persons choices ESPECIALY sexual choices than thats not only wrong but usless.
calling a gay couples 'married' wont change the hate, or the bigotry, or yes simple distaste people have for it. that will only come from time and exposure and with first hand experiances of the community in general. the problem is that NOW most peoples first hand experiance with it is this foolish fight to destroy marriage. you can trumpet all you want about how 'gay rights' are being trampled on but people are smart enough to see this is nothing more than a self serving lie. they ARENT. gays have the same LEGAL rights as anyone else.
and another thing that annoys me is when this 'gay movment' is compaired to black civil rights issues. its nothing of the kind. blacks were flat out denighed civil rights, gays cant be CALLED married. not only is it a shame to try and destroy marriage in the first place, but its a flat out disgusting to equate this "struggle" by gays to force society too embrance their CHOICE of sexual partners with an issue like black civil rights issues.
im not anti-gay even still, but with every new set of self serving, chest thumping, hysterical claims that are put forth by the leaders of the 'gay movment' when they dont get exactly what they want WHEN they want it and all other conciderations be damned, and when they use flat out lies and try to twist and abuse a REAL civil rights issue as a steping stone to force their CHOICE on the rest of the nation i move a notch or two too the anti-gay end of the spectrum.
thats the best you got? they take longer? hmm well now in 50 states there are 50 different ways to get married, and id expect that there are 50 different times involved as well. its called government in action and you will just have to deal with it like the other 300 million americans do every day.
hardly seems like a reason to destroy marraige to me. ohh and i think your full of shit on even this small point. i cant see why it would take any longer to confirm a civil union than it does a marriage, after all, LEGALY they are the same thing.
now your comment on my misconstrueing the word perverted. id say you need to look up what that word means because i dont think it means what you think it does. here ill do it for you.
per⋅vert  /v. pərˈvɜrt; n. ˈpɜrvərt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [v. per-vurt; n. pur-vert] Show IPA
?verb (used with object) 1. to affect with perversion.
5. to turn to an improper use; misapply.
marraige is between a man and a woman, marraige is NOT between a man and a man or a woman and a woman. if we allow this than its PERVERTING what a marriage is. my use of the word isnt ment as a comment on gays sexuality, but as a simple statment of fact. funny how the pro-gay side has such trouble even understanding the basic meanings of words
it wont wreck marriage because it wont ever BE a marriage. you can dress a pile of shit up with fancy flowers and call it a bouquet but its still a pile of shit. you can call gay couples married all you like but it wont change the facts that they arent.
gays and lesbians can 'solidify their love' (what ever the hell that means) in any way they like. whats love got to do with marriage or legalitys?
your statment here makes clear that your on some kind of a moral crusade, sword in hand, on your high horse charging into battle to defend those poor star crossed lovers against the evils of a society that just wont accept their 'forbiden love'. when the simple truth is that the 'evil society' doesnt give a shit either way. and that their love ISNT forbiden.
the only thing your charging into battle to fight is the fact that calling a duck a cow doesnt and wont EVER make it true. you want to tilt at your windmill have at it, just stop trying to destroy marriage in the process will you? you can fight the good fight, you can charge into the teeth of evil government, and fight for the 'rights' of the oppressed to your hearts content. thats one of the great things about living in America, i might suggest too you that their are other MUCH more imporiant issues to go on a moral crusade about, but thats your choice. the fact remains though that your hysterics dont impress anyone, and that your in all probibility doing more harm than good with your tactics.
people arent stupid, and your fighting a battle in the wrong arena. this will end up doing more harm than good for your 'cause' in the end. i come from a pretty liberal background, i was raised in New York state, by Union parents that think the FDR and JFK are the second and third comming of Christ and THEY share my opinions on this subject.
in short IM your "base", or if not actualy your base, i certianly lean much farther to the left than the right. i AGREE with you that gays shoud have the same legal protections as straight coupels, i also agree that a persons sexual choices are their own and they shouldnt automaticaly be condemned for them. what i DONT agree with is this notion that perverting (see the definition i posted above) marriage can do anything to HELP the gay issue and in fact is hurting it.
as i said this continued assault on marriage is moving me one notch at a time to the anti-gay side. i was willing to let God judge the sin. live and let live, and God will deal with it if He chooses too, just like He will deal with all the OTHER sin in the world in His own time. but its one thing to live and let live and its quite something else to come under attack and just do nothing. your attacking one of the very foundations of society AND Christianity, if you expect that i should just shrug and ignore it, your in for a sad reality check. your have crossed the line from "its out there and God will deal with it if He chooses too, ill keep my nose out of it", too a flat out in our face attack aimed at one of the very foundations of our society.
if your looking for a fight you have found one. the trouble is that when you provoke a fight than they will be a winner and a loser. what side do you think your on? better by far not too have provked this fight to being with. this is an issue that time would have solved all on it own. now it wont EVER be solved. its an 'issue' now and will remain so just like race and abortion, forever.
bad move on your part. especialy since if it WAS about love, turning it into a political fight is just ignorant in the extream. and since it WAS turned from the issue of love to a political issue than the gloves come off and the fight begins. i could and did sympathise with gays, and i understand that all they want is to find love and live with the same legal protections the rest of us enjoy (most of them anyhow). but its not about love anymore its about politics and the gay agenda. and THAT is somethig that i not only cant support but something ill actualy FIGHT. i didnt pick the fight, and im truly sorry for all those innocent people that get hurt in the fall-out. those gay couples that truly DO just want to live thier lives and be equil under the law and want to just get on with living, they are now being held hostage to a radical agenda on BOTH ends of the political spectrum. they arent people anymore they are symbols.
i didnt condemn anyone. and if you actualy want to have a debate you really need to stop trying to put words into my mouth, it shows bad form and whats worse you will lose the point because people will simply write you off as a troll moron.
i dont have shoddy interpretations of the bible. there is nothing shoddy about the bible flat out saying that homosexuality is a sin. its not vague or open too interpretation. its a flat out statment as blunt as it can possably be. written in both the old testiment and the new.
i dont need to speak for God , he spoke for Himself just fine. he said
Leviticus 18:22 (New King James Version)
22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination
Leviticus 20:13 (New King James Version)
13 If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (New King James Version)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
Romans 1:26-28 (New King James Version)
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
im not using the Bible as a shield for my beliefs, the Bible IS my beliefs, and if anything its not a shield its a weapon. the Bible isnt vague on this subject. it flat out says its wrong and its a sin.
now you can write long winded replys and try and drag into this debate all kinds of nonsence about how the bible isnt literal or its missunderstood and all kinds of other happy horse shit. but its right there in bold black and white.
you can try to twist it if you want, but as with the issue of gay marriage itself, trying to call a cat a moose wont chage the reality of the situation.
i have done my 'research' and i still belive that the Bible is inspired by God.MGT-Orion said:
either the Bible is ALL true or none of it is. you dont get too pick and choose the parts you like and ignore the stuff you dont.
(there that shouldnt take you a week to read and understand
)