Can I talk about this modern trend in "diversity casting in TV shows?"

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Dalisclock

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That's a selective interpretation, though. It's unclear whether the word in Old Norse represents colour (whitest), or shininess (e.g. brightest). Plus of course that such words have long had conventions to mean things other than visual, such as purity, holiness, cleanliness, morality, etc.

Irrespective of that, it's surely not a problem if Heimdall is portrayed by a white actor - but that's some weird and pointless reversal of the real issue, which is why get your knickers in a twist if the actor is black?
Especially in the case where The Marvel Aesir as basically Aliens but also Gods and they use magi-tek and......yeah, I'm fine with Heimdall being played by Idris Elba. It fits in fine considering the Marvel Aesir are just kinda picking and choosing what shit they want to throw in.

I'm honestly more bothered they haven't mentioned that Loki was the Mother of Odin's Horse....or Loki got Balder killed by having something throw missletoe at him......or that Thor once almost got married while dressing as a woman. I don't want to hear complaints about Heimdall if Marvel is gonna ignore all that stuff.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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I don't want character's race/gender to be interchangable. I want diverse characters with purpose behind their diversity imbeded in who they are as characters. Quite frankly if your character can be portrayed by anyone, then your character is shit.
Then 99.99% of characters are shit, including the ones you like.
 

Gordon_4

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Especially in the case where The Marvel Aesir as basically Aliens but also Gods and they use magi-tek and......yeah, I'm fine with Heimdall being played by Idris Elba. It fits in fine considering the Marvel Aesir are just kinda picking and choosing what shit they want to throw in.

I'm honestly more bothered they haven't mentioned that Loki was the Mother of Odin's Horse....or Loki got Balder killed by having something throw missletoe at him......or that Thor once almost got married while dressing as a woman. I don't want to hear complaints about Heimdall if Marvel is gonna ignore all that stuff.
And Hela was Loki's daughter, not Odin's. And Thor was a shaggy redhead, not a glorious blonde. And many other changes XD
 

CM156

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Agreed. But I guess my argument is that the portrayal should contribute to the artistic point, not detract.

I remember someone telling me he was looking round an art gallery with a friend of his, and he told that friend he thought all the art was rubbish. To which his friend replied "Well it's worked then, because it's made you think and feel something".
I agree with that. One of the reasons I like exposing myself to modern art is that I don't like most of it and much of it makes me uncomfortable.

Theater falls upon performance first thought right? Nobody stays in the theater if they suck. And I would argue that theater is much harder to cast because during a live performance you get no extra takes, no chances, if you fuck it up the audience sees it. Whereas in film that's not the case, you can do a take over and over until it's perfect and that should tell you how bad you have to be of an actor to have a shitty performance in a film where there is no excuse.
I fully acknowledge that my point probably applies far more to live theater than it does to film or other artistic mediums. I also acknowledge that my idea of "Let anyone play any role regardless of race/sex/gender/age/etc" is not tenable currently for a variety of historic reasons. I am sensitive to that.
 
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Gergar12

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I mean, what does Samuel L Jackson's diversity add to Nick Fury?
His acting skills, and creativity. It's because of him that Star Wars got more color lightsabers other than green, blue, and red, and this was from a single comment he made.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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His acting skills, and creativity. It's because of him that Star Wars got more color lightsabers other than green, blue, and red, and this was from a single comment he made.
That's not normally the sort of thing that we mean when we say diversity, but it's the spirit
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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By that logic why bother with diversity at all? It doesn't add anything, and by extension doesn't remove anything so it makes no difference then? Cool.
I never said it didn't add anything, that's your gig. What, in your opinion, does Samuel L Jackson's diversity add to the role? How is it integrated into his character in a narratively necessary way? What's the purpose of Nick Fury being irreplaceably male?

Just holding a character you like to your standards for characters you don't like is all
 

Trunkage

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I agree with that. One of the reasons I like exposing myself to modern art is that I don't like most of it and much of it makes me uncomfortable.
Modern art is meant to challenge you perceptions and understanding of reality, usually through challenging the prevailing culture and being offensive...

I.E. its just fancy shitposting

An art gallery is a reddit board for the rich
 
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Dalisclock

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Modern art is meant to challenge you perceptions and understanding of reality, usually through challenging the prevailing culture and being offensive...

I.E. its just fancy shitposting

An art gallery is a reddit board for the rich
My take on that is there's Art and then there's Fart. Take a wild guess what qualifies as "Fart".
 

CM156

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Modern art is meant to challenge you perceptions and understanding of reality, usually through challenging the prevailing culture and being offensive...

I.E. its just fancy shitposting

An art gallery is a reddit board for the rich
Yeah, but I could get into one for free and it was a good way to kill an evening that I would have just spent shitposting on the internet or playing video games.
 
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Silvanus

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This is pretty irrelevant when playing a pre-written character though right? Like the life experiences of the actor don't matter to the audience, all that matters is the experiences of the character in the story being shown.
It was a response specifically about the characters themselves, not the actors portraying them. It was addressing the idea that stories shouldn't address it if characters are black/LGBTQ/anything else, just always portray them the same.

It shouldn't and I don't think that's the argument being presented. I think the argument is that if "depiction of different experiences" is the goal, then it should be written that way to begin with.

It shouldn't be a matter of "this character can be black, white, asain, whatever it doesn't change the character". Instead it should be "This character HAS to be black, white, asian, whatever and here is the story as to why".

I don't want character's race/gender to be interchangable. I want diverse characters with purpose behind their diversity imbeded in who they are as characters. Quite frankly if your character can be portrayed by anyone, then your character is shit.
Then your argument is the effective opposite of the one presented by immortalfrieza.
 

Kwak

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Shhh everyone, lest you wake the hobbled dwarf.
 

Agema

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I agree with that. One of the reasons I like exposing myself to modern art is that I don't like most of it and much of it makes me uncomfortable.
I like a lot of modern art - although like anything, depends on the artist. If you take a Rothko, you can view them as childish colour daubs. But I think if you sit and look at them openly, they'll make you feel something - and it will probably be consistent with the artist's intent. Much of it, if you go in with an open mind, you can see (or perhaps rather feel) the artist's intent.

I think one of the biggest problems with art is that sometimes it involves underlying concepts that may be hard to really grasp without a knowledge of art. Underlying meaning has existed in art forever: read a guide book, and you'll see that 1500s painting of a load of Renaissance guys hunting a stag is actually a brutal critique of the politics of Florence in 1520. You'd have no idea without the guide book to tell you. Similarly, like any field, it is to a large extent self-referential and builds on what has been done before, so again, "getting" parts of art requires knowledge.

Modern art is meant to challenge you perceptions and understanding of reality, usually through challenging the prevailing culture and being offensive...
I think you'll find the vast majority of modern art is highly inoffensive.
 

Gordon_4

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I like a lot of modern art - although like anything, depends on the artist. If you take a Rothko, you can view them as childish colour daubs. But I think if you sit and look at them openly, they'll make you feel something - and it will probably be consistent with the artist's intent. Much of it, if you go in with an open mind, you can see (or perhaps rather feel) the artist's intent.

I think one of the biggest problems with art is that sometimes it involves underlying concepts that may be hard to really grasp without a knowledge of art. Underlying meaning has existed in art forever: read a guide book, and you'll see that 1500s painting of a load of Renaissance guys hunting a stag is actually a brutal critique of the politics of Florence in 1520. You'd have no idea without the guide book to tell you. Similarly, like any field, it is to a large extent self-referential and builds on what has been done before, so again, "getting" parts of art requires knowledge.



I think you'll find the vast majority of modern art is highly inoffensive.
Inoffensive in the sense that it’s not obviously or at face value about or representative of an offensive or confronting subject, sure.

Offensive in that lay people - like me - look at it and when compared with the great art we have managed to preserve from periods long past, find it wanting.



This for example is the Vault. A piece of public abstract art first erected in Melbourne in 1978. It’s sculptor and a fair amount of other artists love it. However when it was put up, it was largely hated by the public at large. And when I look at it all I see is someone utterly fucking up erecting a garage.

Modern art offends people aesthetically, not morally. And I largely agree; that thing was a waste of perfectly good sheet metal.
 

Silvanus

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However when it was put up, it was largely hated by the public at large. And when I look at it all I see is someone utterly fucking up erecting a garage.
Maybe so, but that thing is kinda making me reevaluate my take on the politics of Florence in 1520.
 

Agema

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Modern art offends people aesthetically, not morally. And I largely agree; that thing was a waste of perfectly good sheet metal.
Modern art represents an incredibly vast span of work. A lump of metal painted yellow cannot be held as representative of all modern art. Take something like Gormley's Angel of the North, near Newcastle (UK). It's also public modern art, and mostly people have really taken to it.

Now let's imagine there were a 19th century style statue up of some PM or other bigwig insetad of Vault. Who would care? Who would walk past and think, "love the chisel work on that"? Basically, no-one. There are three plinths in Trafalgar Square in London with random Victorian types on, and they're all artistic irrelevances that no-one pays any attention to - nobody even cares who the people portrayed are any more (at least Nelson, atop his column, has the distinction of being remembered even if his statue is equally dull). That's what "inoffensive" really is: so unremarkable our views just glide off as if the art weren't even there. That is intrinsically a failure as art. Almost everything interesting is so because it draws attention. You just have to suck up the inevitability that some art will simply not be liked.

You can take this approach to architecture as well. You could be Prince Charles, who'd have the entire UK a bunch of twee cottages and neoclassical public buildings. But the Sydney Opera House, for instance, is an amazing, iconic building because it is modern art, not because someone made yet another boring, old-style stone box with Greek columns, frieze and pediment.
 

Gordon_4

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Modern art represents an incredibly vast span of work. A lump of metal painted yellow cannot be held as representative of all modern art. Take something like Gormley's Angel of the North, near Newcastle (UK). It's also public modern art, and mostly people have really taken to it.

Now let's imagine there were a 19th century style statue up of some PM or other bigwig insetad of Vault. Who would care? Who would walk past and think, "love the chisel work on that"? Basically, no-one. There are three plinths in Trafalgar Square in London with random Victorian types on, and they're all artistic irrelevances that no-one pays any attention to - nobody even cares who the people portrayed are any more (at least Nelson, atop his column, has the distinction of being remembered even if his statue is equally dull). That's what "inoffensive" really is: so unremarkable our views just glide off as if the art weren't even there. That is intrinsically a failure as art. Almost everything interesting is so because it draws attention. You just have to suck up the inevitability that some art will simply not be liked.

You can take this approach to architecture as well. You could be Prince Charles, who'd have the entire UK a bunch of twee cottages and neoclassical public buildings. But the Sydney Opera House, for instance, is an amazing, iconic building because it is modern art, not because someone made yet another boring, old-style stone box with Greek columns, frieze and pediment.
I don’t disagree with any of this.


On the topic at hand, I honestly don’t care. In fact the deeper into fantasy you delve or further into the future you travel, I find any kind of hardline against there being a fairly multi ethnic group of protagonists and/or antagonists to be absurd.
 
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