Can killing be justified?

[Riven Armor]

...

EDIT: Having read the hypothetical, not sure what the DA would think about that. Hm. But for all the people talking about shooting to wound...no such beast. Any kind of bullet hole has the possibility of death.

While that's technically true, the intent to wound is different than the intent to kill. Then again, you probably shouldn't be shooting at a house that has 2 children inside...

Intent may be different, yeah, but it can't bend reality. Shooting to wound would not be reliable if you absolutely wanted to avoid killing.

Or you were probably talking about the legal standpoint...huh...

 

[wfpdk]

good and evil are just words, so the last one left alive decides what's they mean.

 

[RadiusXd]

No, if there is a god then no matter why you killed someone you will do your turn in hell. Ending the life of another is horrid and to "justify" such an act is just an attempt to console the soul. The harsh reality is killing is killing, and those who kill, be it their job or some sick twisted reason, will burn in hell for the appropriated length of time. Cause it turns out hell isn't forever, you roast for a time, then once you have atoned, you go to heaven. (what do you know, god might not be such a dick after all.)

Try looking at it from a non-religious point of view.

Ok, no, there is no justification for taking anothers life unless you are truly ready for the consequences. Ending another persons life is wrong, this is my belief, not that of a religion, and that only a person who is really ready to do such a thing and realize that what they did was in fact murder, regardless of circumstance, is the only person who should. If you must kill to save your children do so, but do not think that you can do that and just move on, same goes with all things in life, be aware that what you are doing has consequences. Even a killer might have loved ones.

i think perhaps what he meant was to look at the problem without preconceptions or personal slant, especially those based on religious or otherwise "spiritual" beliefs.
or to refrase, Pretend that your spock.

How the fuck do you look at murder without any kind of a personal slant? It isn't possible, I feel that killing if a screwed up thing to do, and that to do it will leave people emotionally fucked up and that they should only do it if they really feel that they can. I feel I could kill if I had to, because I'm a cold heartless bastard who doesn't give a damn about the lives of others. I'm saying that "justification" is a human concept that doesn't need to exist, you do what you do because you have to or because you want to, don't say "I only did it because..." that's a load of shit, you did it because you wanted to or were forced into a situation where that was the only option, do not rationalize a simple choice between dying and not dying, cause the only reason you would need justification is to feel better spiritually. Speaking in the idea of nature, survival of the fittest, if you could kill them they didn't deserve to live, and if you attacked them because you knew who they were then you wanted to kill them and there is no justification other than what you wanted to do.

who says that arguing that it was a kill or be killed situation isn't a form of justification!?

 

[Shoqiyqa]

Yeah, but this sure as hell wasen't self defense, duuuuuuuude.

The Self Defense Laws Of Texas [http://www.self-defender.net/law3.htm]​

Deadly Force in Defense of Person

"A person is justified in using deadly force against another if he would be justified in using force under Section 9.31 of the statute when and to the degree he reasonable believes that deadly force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force, if a reasonable person in the same situation would have not retreated. The use of deadly force is also justified to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, rape or robbery."

Defense of Another Person

"A person is justified in using deadly force against an attacker to protect another person if he would be justified to use it to protect himself against an unlawful attack and he reasonably believes his intervention is immediately necessary to protect the other person from serious injury or death."

CALIFORNIA PENAL CODE
TITLE 8. OF CRIMES AGAINST THE PERSON
CHAPTER 1. HOMICIDE​

197. Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in any of the following cases:
1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,
2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person, against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or surprise, to commit a felony ...

New York State Law [http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article35.htm]​

S 35.15 Justification; use of physical force in defense of a person.
1. A person may, subject to the provisions of subdivision two, use
physical force upon another person when and to the extent he reasonably
believes such to be necessary to defend himself or a third person from
what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful
physical force by such other person ...

2. A person may not use deadly physical force upon another person
under circumstances specified in subdivision one unless:
...
(b) He reasonably believes that such other person is committing or
attempting to commit a kidnapping, forcible rape, forcible sodomy or
robbery; or ...

Funny thing about a .22: it'll blow into a human skull, but tends to ricochet off the inside and bounce back through the brain a few times rather than blowing clear through. Has about the same effect as a 12.7x99mm on the inside but doesn't make a mess and doesn't carry on into anyone else.

Here's part of why you can't aim to wound. [http://www.firearmstactical.com/pagea18.htm] M16A1 is US standard 5.56mm and M16A2 is Euro standard 5.56mm. Either way, bits go in funny directions.

 

[TankTop]

Ok, how about this?

A run away train is thundering down a line, and can go down 1 of two paths. The one it is currently on has about 40 men working on it, and if you leave it be, they will certainly die.

However, there is a lever that you can pull, to make it change course to another line, which has 5 people working on it.

If you don't pull the lever, it will not be murder, but negligence that leads to the loss of 40 lives.

However, through the act of willful murder by pulling that lever, you are saving those 40 lives by taking the 5.

Justified? I'll let you be the judge.

 

[zhoominator]

Nope, killing is certainly not justified.

It can be logical, understandable or even help people, including yourself, in the short and/or long term and as such these things shoud be taken into consideration when it comes to punishing these actions (if they should be punished at all). However, I don't think any such action could and should ever be considered just.

Justification is used by killers (even the ones who apparently cause good from it) as a defense mechanism. If one truly empathised with the pain they caused the deceased, they'd probably go a bit mad.

 

[SamFancyPants252]

Ok, how about this?

A run away train is thundering down a line, and can go down 1 of two paths. The one it is currently on has about 40 men working on it, and if you leave it be, they will certainly die.

However, there is a lever that you can pull, to make it change course to another line, which has 5 people working on it.

If you don't pull the lever, it will not be murder, but negligence that leads to the loss of 40 lives.

However, through the act of willful murder by pulling that lever, you are saving those 40 lives by taking the 5.

Justified? I'll let you be the judge.

utalitarianism all the way. It's just the most logical. Their blood is on his hands either way you look at it, so killing the 5 is just the greatest good for the greatest number.

 

[Corey_Best]

Killing cannot and never will be justified! A child in my area killed himself because he was being bullied, yet everyone now says that if they find said bully, they'll kill them. Can this be just? Should you take the life of another for taking the life of another? Am I seeing too much irony in the matter? Killing can never be justified. Because no matter the reason, you have taken the life of someone with a family who will miss that person, no matter what they may have done.

 

[Prosis]

Nope, killing is certainly not justified.

It can be logical, understandable or even help people, including yourself, in the short and/or long term and as such these things shoud be taken into consideration when it comes to punishing these actions (if they should be punished at all). However, I don't think any such action could and should ever be considered just.

Justification is used by killers (even the ones who apparently cause good from it) as a defense mechanism. If one truly empathised with the pain they caused the deceased, they'd probably go a bit mad.

I disagree. Killing is justified if their death will save the lives of many. Killing the Columbine shooters, or the Sandy Hook shooter, for example, would have saved many lives. (not arguing that schools should have guns, that's stupid)

If a person picks up a gun with the intent to harm innocent people, then their death is justified. Best to be avoided, of course. A nonviolent solution is better. But by taking up a gun, specifically to harm innocents, then they have specifically chosen that the lives of their victims are worthless. And thus, their own right to life is forfeit.

It's different for a robbery, as they're trying to get money. The gun is a fear factor, meant to terrify people. Most robbers do not go in with the intent to kill bystanders. But for a mass shooter, or a serial killer? If they're behind bars, sure, it is not justified to kill them. If they have surrendered, it is not justified to kill them. But if the shooter is actively gunning down people, murdering the shooter is entirely justifiable.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I'd totally kill someone that's trying to kill me. Or kill a loved one.