Can There Be Peace?

[Jharry5]

I can't remember where I heard this quote from;

"If you want peace, prepare for war."

So we have to fight for peace.
By our very nature, the losing side would want revenge which would spark another war, breaking the peace. And so...

It's a never ending cycle, caused by our nature.
Has there ever been a time in human history where there has been universal peace? (By that, I men no wars/conflicts/civil wars happening anywhere in the world).

 

[ThePlasmatizer]

Damn I wanted to use the plato quote.

I'll have to think of something else now.

There's always the scorpion and the frog story. xD

The scorpion needed a ride across the river, and asked the frog to carry him. The frog was uncertain, but the scorpion assured him that he would not harm him for he could not swim and would die, or would not get to the other side.

On the way across the scorpion stung the frog. As the frog began to go numb, he asked why the scorpion had doomed them both. The scorpion replied "It's just in my nature"

And human beings are pretty much the same. (thanks plasmatizer )

Np,

It's slightly sad though that we are doomed to a neverending cycle committing the same mistakes though.

 

[Galletea]

It's slightly sad though that we are doomed to a neverending cycle committing the same mistakes though.

True though if we weren't given to destroying ourselves, perhaps the result would be just as bad. If we spent all our effort on curing people and solving world hunger, it would be just as futile in the long run, as the population explosion would smother the planet and the human race would be doomed anyway.

I know it's pessimistic, but that's how I see it.

 

[ZTBar]

Can there be peace?

No.

good answer

Agreed.

 

[Axolotl]

There will never be peace. As long as there is complex life there will be violence. Even if there were perfect peace it would ultimatly only lead to the destruction of civilisation.

 

[Snittgaard]

Can there be peace?

No.

good answer

I like to make myself clear, hehe.

 

[Anarchemitis]

Can there be peace?

No.

Pessimist.

 

[WhitemageofDOOM]

and anyway are more important question is would you want peace?

Everyone should work towards a perfect world, it's the only world worth living for.(For, not in. Living in an imperfect world and striving for a perfect world is a life quite worth living.)

Yes peace is possible, you must simply expand the monkey sphere of humanity so each person conventionalizes every living human as a person. In practical terms, the death of compassion, empathy, love, family, nation and race. Few men are selfless enough to accept such a peace as it means there monkey sphere has no place in it.

 

[John Galt]

I agree with corporate_gamer, why would we want peace when conflict is the source of all our fun? What is so fun about a life of passivity and acceptance? Everything good in society comes from conflict. Sports? Conflict between teams. Capitalism? Conflict between companies. Debate? Gaming? Good Literature? The list goes on. Conflict is what takes away that monotony and gives us a chance to do something new.

There's too many men, too many people
Making too many problems
And there's not much love to go around!

Yeah peace is impossible!

(Round of applause for who ever names the song!)

Man, I don't know about you but I think people make this one confusing land.

 

[Jolly Madness]

Peace of mind is the only true kind of peace.

 

[WhitemageofDOOM]

I agree with corporate_gamer, why would we want peace when conflict is the source of all our fun? What is so fun about a life of passivity and acceptance? Everything good in society comes from conflict. Sports? Conflict between teams. Capitalism? Conflict between companies. Debate? Gaming? Good Literature? The list goes on. Conflict is what takes away that monotony and gives us a chance to do something new.

So having the people you care about brutally murdered is good?

 

[corporate_gamer]

and anyway are more important question is would you want peace?

Everyone should work towards a perfect world, it's the only world worth living for.(For, not in. Living in an imperfect world and striving for a perfect world is a life quite worth living.)

Yes peace is possible, you must simply expand the monkey sphere of humanity so each person conventionalizes every living human as a person. In practical terms, the death of compassion, empathy, love, family, nation and race. Few men are selfless enough to accept such a peace as it means there monkey sphere has no place in it.

By striving for a perfect world aren't you still fighting? Yes people can strive for a perfect world but what do they do when they get it? It is the chase that gives their live meaning not the destination.

I totally don't understand your second paragraph. Do you mean we can only have peace without empathy, compassion, love or family? without these what are we, humans or robots?

My point is peace as an ideal is perfect but as a reality it gives no meaning or purpose to your lives. Everyone could live but no-one would have a life.

 

[Amnestic]

Disagreements breed progress. Some might say it's worth sacrificing a few hundred/thousand lives for the betterment, technologically, of humanity as a whole. Utilitarianism and all that stuff.

Can there be peace? Not while humans exist in their current form, no. Perhaps a few millenia down the line, but right now certainly not.

 

[John Galt]

I agree with corporate_gamer, why would we want peace when conflict is the source of all our fun? What is so fun about a life of passivity and acceptance? Everything good in society comes from conflict. Sports? Conflict between teams. Capitalism? Conflict between companies. Debate? Gaming? Good Literature? The list goes on. Conflict is what takes away that monotony and gives us a chance to do something new.

So having the people you care about brutally murdered is good?

So setting up a straw man when confronted with a valid point is good?

Did I at any point in that post, condone brutal murder? No, I don't recall such a thing. I said that all the good things in life come from some form of conflict, to anyone who understands reasoning, that doesn't mean that everything that comes from conflict is bad.

 

[WhitemageofDOOM]

By striving for a perfect world aren't you still fighting?

And? If my fighting results in a better world, then that is what matters.

Yes people can strive for a perfect world but what do they do when they get it? It is the chase that gives their live meaning not the destination.

No the destination gives lives meaning. Unless your arguing that going to your girlfriends house to get laid is less important than the driving there.
Roads have destinations, it is why we walk them.

I totally don't understand your second paragraph. Do you mean we can only have peace without empathy, compassion, love or family? without these what are we, humans or robots?

Humanity is not a good thing, merely the least bad thing. Like all imperfect things the best it can do is to replace itself with something better.

My point is peace as an ideal is perfect but as a reality it gives no meaning or purpose to your lives. Everyone could live but no-one would have a life.

Of course they have meaning, they just are nothing like yours. This is irrelevant, the human condition is not the arbiter of what kind of life is and is not meaningful.
A dolphins life is surely meaningful.
So too is an ants.
So too is the merest single celled organism.
A better life is merely more meaningful because it is better.

Did I at any point in that post, condone brutal murder? No, I don't recall such a thing. I said that all the good things in life come from some form of conflict, to anyone who understands reasoning, that doesn't mean that everything that comes from conflict is bad.

Ok your right it's a straw man, but you've just enunciated my thoughts better than i did.
Conflict is not good, the results there of are. Conflict for conflicts sake leads to rampant pointless murder, conflict needs to have a purpose and thus an end goal. And one we should strive to actually reach instead of pointlessly lengthening the conflict merely to prevent our world from changing.

 

[Hunde Des Krieg]

There will never be global permanent peace. There is peace between wars though and it is usually nice. But global everlasting peace will never happen, and no after humans are gone does not count.

 

[corporate_gamer]

By striving for a perfect world aren't you still fighting?

And? If my fighting results in a better world, then that is what matters.

Yes people can strive for a perfect world but what do they do when they get it? It is the chase that gives their live meaning not the destination.

No the destination gives lives meaning. Unless your arguing that going to your girlfriends house to get laid is less important than the driving there.
Roads have destinations, it is why we walk them.

I totally don't understand your second paragraph. Do you mean we can only have peace without empathy, compassion, love or family? without these what are we, humans or robots?

Humanity is not a good thing, merely the least bad thing. Like all imperfect things the best it can do is to replace itself with something better.

My point is peace as an ideal is perfect but as a reality it gives no meaning or purpose to your lives. Everyone could live but no-one would have a life.

Of course they have meaning, they just are nothing like yours. This is irrelevant, the human condition is not the arbiter of what kind of life is and is not meaningful.
A dolphins life is surely meaningful.
So too is an ants.
So too is the merest single celled organism.
A better life is merely more meaningful because it is better.

Yeah right, you missed my point. your saying fighting for a better life is what's important and i'm saying the difference is your fighting. Peace has no fighting. It doesn't matter what your fighting for, every cause will give your life meaning. And your comparison is false, as sex is part of the journey towards child-birth, and when you drive over to your girlfriends which one are you going for?

And who the hell says a dolphins life has meaning? It has life. But does it believe anything? Does it care about anything, or does it live by it biological instincts? And by your logic someone who is brain-dead but kept alive by machines life has meaning.

and replace humanity with something better? Does that involve changing everything about our nature or replacing us with robots? its the messiness of life that makes it worth living. If we all walk around like we pop valium all day long are we really living or just respiring?

by the way in arguing this you are proving my point that it is the conflict that make life interesting.

 

[WhitemageofDOOM]

Yeah right, you missed my point. your saying fighting for a better life is what's important and i'm saying the difference is your fighting. Peace has no fighting. It doesn't matter what your fighting for, every cause will give your life meaning.

Not every cause is worth fighting for. Only a perfect world is worth doing anything for.

And your comparison is false, as sex is part of the journey towards child-birth, and when you drive over to your girlfriends which one are you going for?

Most I'd say just sex, the modern world has a pretty low birth rate.

And who the hell says a dolphins life has meaning?

No one needs to say it for it to be true. Dolphins can create new life, this life can be better than what was.

But does it believe anything?

Possibly. How is it relevant?

Does it care about anything

How is this relevant?

or does it live by it biological instincts?

It lives by it's biological instincts. Just like you, the capacity to believe and care is an expression of our instincts after all.

And by your logic someone who is brain-dead but kept alive by machines life has meaning.

Braindead people are dead.

and replace humanity with something better? Does that involve changing everything about our nature or replacing us with robots?

Eventually it of course involves changing everything about our nature, it could begin with simple things like making smarter, stronger humans. But humanity must change it's nature and become something more, just as chimpanzees changed there nature and became human. We are not an ending but merely another stepping stone.

its the messiness of life that makes it worth living.

Hardly, it is the potential to be more that makes life worth living.

If we all walk around like we pop valium all day long are we really living or just respiring?

I dunno, find me someone who walks around like he popped valium all day and is still lucid. Then we could compare and find out.

by the way in arguing this you are proving my point that it is the conflict that make life interesting.

Your argument seems to boil down more towards xenophobia and worship of being what you think is human. Which is...very human.

 

[corporate_gamer]

Your argument seems to boil down more towards xenophobia and worship of being what you think is human. Which is...very human.

a) how is anything i say xenophobic?


b) You said the merest single cell organism life has meaning, therefore doesnt a brain-dead person (made of lots of single cells group together) have meaning?

c) you say dolphins life have meaning, i was merely questing why it does without any belief or views. which is how i define a life having meaning.

d) your perfect world isnt everyone perfect world, so how is the perfect world (and by that i assume you meant your version of) the only thing worth fighting for.

e) your perfect world removes important values in my life such as empathy, compassion and family. What would you be replacing this with?

f) in your 'perfect world' what would people do? As John Galt said everything in our lives involves conflicts, sport, business, religion, science. everything involves competition, difference of opinions. this is what i cherish not racism. what will people be doing with their lifes to give themselves meaning that doesn't included a single iota of competition.

Essentially I am arguing that it isn't the destination that gives you a purpose or a meaning its the destination. And fighting for a better world is pro-active, its doing something, its a journey. Where as living in a perfect, peace-ridden world is doing nothing of significance, its de-activated, its a dead-end. It goes nowhere, it has no imperative, or no purpose except raising children to live your lives again, and again, and again.

 

[WhitemageofDOOM]

a) how is anything i say xenophobic?

Your reliance on human concepts to evoke meaning and your aversion to the thought of humanity being replaced.

b) You said the merest single cell organism life has meaning, therefore doesnt a brain-dead person (made of lots of single cells group together) have meaning?

Ah now i get it.
The purpose of the cells in my body is the emergent process, ie me. Without me those cells lose purpose and thus meaning.

c) you say dolphins life have meaning, i was merely questing why it does without any belief or views. which is how i define a life having meaning.

They live, they breed, they evolve.
Belief is not the sum arbiter of meaning.

d) your perfect world isnt everyone perfect world, so how is the perfect world (and by that i assume you meant your version of) the only thing worth fighting for.

A perfect world is a perfect world, my vision is not the only possibility of perfection. Any perfect world is equally valid by definition.

e) your perfect world removes important values in my life such as empathy, compassion and family. What would you be replacing this with?

The satisfaction of being perfect?

f) in your 'perfect world' what would people do? As John Galt said everything in our lives involves conflicts, sport, business, religion, science. everything involves competition, difference of opinions. this is what i cherish not racism. what will people be doing with their lifes to give themselves meaning that doesn't included a single iota of competition.

I started by stating what peace required. Then started arguing that we should seek out perfection. While i do desire a peaceful world i don't think that is the only possible perfect world only my vision of perfection.
But fundamentally a world where everyone isn't satisfied with there existence i could not call perfect, i want a world where people find satisfaction in the joy of living, in helping others and altruistic behavior, in making every life a good one. Do i want hedonistic lounging about? yes. But i also art and science, and friendly competition.(note, friendly.) and helping other people. It's a lot to ask for, but then if perfection wasn't a lot to ask for it might actually be obtainable.

Where as living in a perfect, peace-ridden world is doing nothing of significance, its de-activated, its a dead-end. It goes nowhere, it has no imperative, or no purpose except raising children to live your lives again, and again, and again.

Nothing could be more significant than living in a perfect world, as that would mean you would have a perfect world. IF living in a perfect world is not significant than striving for it is not significant either, following that path will lead one to nothing being signifigant.