Can we agree on this? Biggest problem in the world today.

[ParkourMcGhee]

People thinking there are easy solutions to any and every problem.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

So please, tell me of an atheist state which has actually worked, or butt out...

.. As you (rightly) say, those states fail not because they are atheist, but because of circumstance.

Why insist I give an example and then agree that they're totally irrelevent to this?

People who claim that "religion is everything bad" have only to look at atheist states to see that is nonsense.

There's a modern brand of militant atheist that can appear horribly smug and superior. It's an attitude that can be summed up as, "Aren't religious people stupid?"

Simply wrong.

Believing in something without evidence IS pretty stupid, no matter what way you dice it. It just is.

You really don't *get* religion do you? Evidence exists all over the place. No proof, but plenty of evidence.

The gist of what I am saying is that blaming religion for anything is as senseless as blaming atheism too..

All I did was turn the anti-religious argument around and point it at the atheist, and therefore demonstrated the absurdity of it.

Yeah, but this is really pretty flawed. Atheism is a lack of belief, not a belief in a certain doctrine.

Agnostism is a lack of belief. Atheism is a belief in the non-existence of a deity. And fundamentalist atheism is the boldest of all dogmas, for it claims there is a universal negatory.

It's perfectly valid to say that "Holy" texts saying kill women/children/gay people/unbelievers/people who don't agree you have a divine right to such a land/pro choicers/people who don't shave their beards/people who don't wear funny hats Etc etc etc etc etc are at the very least partially to blame for conflict.

Uhm... no. It isn't "perfectly valid". In fact it is beyond stupid. Current census data suggests there are 4 and a half billion theistic humans on planet earth. If more than 2 thirds of all people believed their holy texts literally then the world would have ended long ago.

The fact is nobody with a functioning brain takes theological texts such as the Bible literally.

Another fun fact is that no reasonable atheist thinks that it is the common position of the theist to take such stuff literally. Only theophobic people or atheists without a functioning brain really go down that route.

As always, the real problem is intolerance and the inability of some people to just get on and accept others who think differently than they do. And I really don't have to prove that atheism is capable of this, as quite a few people have already proven it in this thread.

 

[Manji187]

In my opinion a lot of the big problems in the world arise out of the fact that the majority thinks his/ her life is worth more than that of any other individual.

 

[Sir_Montague]

Everything from a failed economy and the national debt rising to (more) ridiculous proportions to civil war. Our own "Melting Pot" culture clashing with itself due to outsourcing, ignorance, greed, and hatred all culminating in our nation. A physical collapse to where the world doesn't care to emulate our decisions or respect us as a power anymore. Collapse can mean lots of things

Oh. Well yeah, we are losing our influence and seem to be portrayed in bad ways more often, but it could just be the sheer volume of these ideas that you're exposed to everyday, leading you to believe that America truly is declining rapidly.

Yes, there are some countries that hate us, and yes, I know people that are now training their cheaper replacements at work (they're being forced to outsource themselves, basically). Still, everyday, our immigration offices are pressured with lines upon lines of people that want to legally make America their new home. And every hour, our broad borders are crossed by those that are too anxious to go through formalities--in numbers far greater than those that want to do it legally. At the college I attend, I see new faces at the international students office everyday. America is very much alive my friend.

Still, it would be sad if we were to "collapse" in any way. It would be more of a pity, really--we've only been around for 300 years or so. Even if we were to dissolve, the American ideals would surely live on (who cannot cherish freedom and having one's faith and hard work rewarded?), and as long as that holds true...buddy, America will never die.

I agree with some of your ideals, but honestly, it just comes down to how positively and negatively either of us think about this. I'm a little bit of a pessimist when it comes to this sort of thing, and even though I am patriotic and love our country i definitely don't know about how long we'll be around and how much our supposed "ideals" will live on and be respected after our collapse. Especially if we can't always emulate these ideals ourselves.

But don't get me wrong, good points!

 

[Lukeydoodly]

Bad things - if we had more good things it would be better.

Your logic is flawless!

 

[Bocaj2000]

I've thought about it and yes, the US parallels very to Rome during their time (not equal though). I don't feel like going into this righ now, but I will defend this statement if questioned.

Anyway the bigest problem in the world is ignorance. Everyone thinks that they're right without any research, indepth thought, or self questioning. People are suddenly afraid to question their values because they are afraid that they will change their mind. Their minds are closed and ignorance is always justified.

Because information is so readilly available, it's easier to feed people bullshit. It's so hard to find find an objective point of view now of days. Because of this, ignorance is posted on the internet through an extremely impersonal discussion.

 

[Baby Tea]

Because, babytea, it's in all probability false hope and comfort. Why should people who's only crime was to be weak and vunerable be fed nonsense?

WHAT? People from all creeds, colors, nations, and backgrounds both join and leave religions everyday, regardless of education or financial standing. 'Weak and vunerable'? That's disgusting.

Why should I respect a mindset which takes things without solid evidence? Like "Prayers answered, lives turned around". That's nonsense, and I'm pretty sure that anyone who's had those experiences would admit that it most likely was chance if they had the courage to let go of the "hope and comfort."

Then you know NOTHING about religion except what Dawkins and Hitchens dangled in your face. I personally know people who would say to you, straight up, that it was their faith in God that got them through the hardest parts of their life. You may not think God is real, and that's fine, but even IF I look at it from your point of view, just the very idea of a 'non-existent' God is actually helping people cope and get through terrible things.

Lets say, you think the moon is made of rock, and I think the moon is made of norweigan beaver cheese. Of course you wouldn't respect that idea. It's crazy! But of course the moon is made of norweigan beaver cheese, because, in my world, where I prayed for answers about the universe, god told me the world was made of norweigan beaver cheese.

You know what the problem with this analogy is? I can prove the moon is made of rock. You cannot prove God doesn't exist. Analogy failed. Try again.
EDIT: Said 'isn't' by accident. Meant 'is'.

So youknow, noone should have to respect your "differing worldview", because it isn't deserving of respect. Believing in a god who has a holy book about killing people for trivial reasons isn't deserving of respect. Believing in something without evidence isn't deserving of respect.

You know, I'm still waiting for that evidence of abiogenesis. You got on that yet? I'm waiting. Oh wait, you said this:

And don't drag up bits of science which haven't been discovered/worked out yet, because science is founded on reason and logic whereas religion isn't. Show me the evidence for god answering prayers (There isn't any - scientific studies of prayer confirm it has no effect whatsoever) or evidence for any god of any kind. Demanding evidence for the little bits of human evolution which haven't been quite worked out is MASSIVELY hyprocritical when theres no evidence for anything taken on blind faith.

So I can't prove God exists, therefore it's crazy.
But you can't prove the origin of life, but so it's 'just not worked out yet'?

Don't you just love double standards?

And abiogenesis doesn't have ANYTHING to do with evolution. Yeah, you really know your worldview well. I'm glad you're so very educated so you can show the 'nutjobs' like cuddly_tomato and me the way of truth.

And by 'truth' I mean intolerance and bigotry.

I'm not being hypocritical by shoving my "Faith" down peoples throat, because I don't have a faith. I have a lack of faith. What people who preach are doing is trying to convert somone into believing. It's kind of a bunk idea to shove non-belief down somones throat.

You're shoving your worldview down people's throats, which is totally and completely synonymous. Hence: Hypocrisy.

You know I find it funny that those who rage against religion for being this...bastion of 'hate' are more hateful then any religious people I've ever met.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

So youknow, noone should have to respect your "differing worldview", because it isn't deserving of respect. Believing in a god who has a holy book about killing people for trivial reasons isn't deserving of respect. Believing in something without evidence isn't deserving of respect.

And thus we demonstrate one of the worlds big problems, right here in these forums. Here we see intolerance, bigotry, and condemnation of other people simply because his own world view doesn't sit well with those who think differently. The exact same attitude of a bigot also applies to politics. You have conservative bigots, who firmly believe that anyone on benefits is a freeloader who doesn't nothing good for society. You also have the socialist bigots, who will flat out refuse to accept that corporate heads can be decent, hardworking people who care about their employees and the world in general.

The greatest achievements of mankind, with regards to peace and problem solving, has always come about because of men and women willing to overlook differences and do their best to respect others and observe the common tenets of tolerance that are basic to all relationships. From simply getting on with the school kid who is a bit overweight and not putting glue on his chair, to not complaining when your girlfriend wants to watch Titanic for the 16th time, all the way to finding ways to bring two waring nations together, in each case people need to make a conscious decision to live and let live. They need to understand that they don't really have the right to decide for other people, indeed they don't even know what is right for other people, and allow everyone to lead their own lives.

Some people find this hard to do. Whether they are sociopathic, have never learned sociability, or are just megalomaniacs, their behaviour is the same. They know what is best, and will push it upon all others. Right up until he shot himself, Hitler thought he was doing the right thing, and was utterly convinced that History would vindicate him. Stalin too. George Bush has constantly commented that he has no doubts about the actions he has taken with regard to war during his presidency.

Abraham Lincoln, a man of towering intellect, said he had enormous doubts about the military decisions he took during the civil war ("War at the best, is terrible, and this war of ours, in its magnitude and in its duration, is one of the most terrible.") That is all that is needed in people. The ability to criticize oneself and understand that you don't 'know the truth', be it religious truth, political truth, ideological truth, etc, is what is needed.

One day, I really hope that admitting when you are wrong and learning from mistakes is not seen as weakness but as strength.

 

[Dancingman]

Too many children.

No, really. Think about it.
Children are filthy, loud, and obnoxious little snots.
When they grow up, they become filthy, loud, and obnoxious adults.
Or sometimes, politicians.
Or soldiers.
Or terrorists.
Or rapists.
Or regular people who just contribute to making everything worse.

Instead of blaming "people," I blame "children."
It makes me sound like a mean old man and damnit, I like that.

Did you get that from somewhere? Cuase it sounds familiar...

Not that I know of. I don't really watch many comedians, and they're the only ones I can think of who would say such a thing.
As far as I know, I made it up.
With my brain.

As long as you didn't make it up...
with your ass

...He's on to me.

You say patriotic like it's a good thing...

Also, this. Being all, "My country is pretty cool" is fine.
It's when you get into "MY COUNTRY IS BETTER THAN YOURS DIE BITCHES STAB STAB SHOOT LYNCH" that problems arise.
Sadly most patriotism falls into the latter category.

Yeah... but's that's more nationalism than patriotism...

The word this bloke is looking for is Chauvenism or Jingoism.

Patriotism and Nationalism are treated synonymously in some cultures, but as a general rule:

Patriotism is a love for and identification with a certain language, religion, ethics, and law of an area or group.

Nationalism is a love for and identification with a nation-state.

I guess the modern use could be interchangeable, but patriotism is usually preferred over nationalism in diction, the main exception being in nuetral analysis of political and social practices, movements, and studies for academia.

I like your thinking, patriotism is, after all, "a virtue of the wicked" as Mr. Wilde put it.

 

[Ken Korda]

It's good to see we managed to get back around to religion again. It's been a while since it was discussed on this forum. Oh wait...that's not right is it?

 

[I_LIKE_CAKE]

So youknow, noone should have to respect your "differing worldview", because it isn't deserving of respect. Believing in a god who has a holy book about killing people for trivial reasons isn't deserving of respect. Believing in something without evidence isn't deserving of respect.

And thus we demonstrate one of the worlds big problems, right here in these forums. Here we see intolerance, bigotry, and condemnation of other people simply because his own world view doesn't sit well with those who think differently. The exact same attitude of a bigot also applies to politics. You have conservative bigots, who firmly believe that anyone on benefits is a freeloader who doesn't nothing good for society. You also have the socialist bigots, who will flat out refuse to accept that corporate heads can be decent, hardworking people who care about their employees and the world in general.

The greatest achievements of mankind, with regards to peace and problem solving, has always come about because of men and women willing to overlook differences and do their best to respect others and observe the common tenets of tolerance that are basic to all relationships. From simply getting on with the school kid who is a bit overweight and not putting glue on his chair, to not complaining when your girlfriend wants to watch Titanic for the 16th time, all the way to finding ways to bring two waring nations together, in each case people need to make a conscious decision to live and let live. They need to understand that they don't really have the right to decide for other people, indeed they don't even know what is right for other people, and allow everyone to lead their own lives.

Some people find this hard to do. Whether they are sociopathic, have never learned sociability, or are just megalomaniacs, their behaviour is the same. They know what is best, and will push it upon all others. Right up until he shot himself, Hitler thought he was doing the right thing, and was utterly convinced that History would vindicate him. Stalin too. George Bush has constantly commented that he has no doubts about the actions he has taken with regard to war during his presidency.

Abraham Lincoln, a man of towering intellect, said he had enormous doubts about the military decisions he took during the civil war ("War at the best, is terrible, and this war of ours, in its magnitude and in its duration, is one of the most terrible.") That is all that is needed in people. The ability to criticize oneself and understand that you don't 'know the truth', be it religious truth, political truth, ideological truth, etc, is what is needed.

One day, I really hope that admitting when you are wrong and learning from mistakes is not seen as weakness but as strength.

Well said.

Yeah but this makes America seem like the only civilised country and every one else being barbarians. Also Rome was sooo far ahead because of it's technology. While that may be one reason for America's postion, it's one of many (such as being an amalgamation of European cultures and what-not).

I just want to say that this is an interesting argument. To be perfectly accurate, Rome [em]thought[/em] it was the only civilized culture. If you look outside the West, China was dominant and technologically advanced, as well as the beginnings of Mayan civilization. As for being an amalgam of different cultures, anything Roman that wasn't Greek first was Egyptian or Etruscan. Lastly, the similarities between Rome and The United States is not an accident when one looks at what government the Founding Fathers were trying to emulate and improve upon. This similarity is also not inherently bad, as long as our society learns from the mistakes of the past instead of repeating them.

 

[vivadelkitty]

Is it a modern day Roman Empire? I'd disagree with that.

Pax Americania's working about as well as Pax Romana, eh?

Except that the Pax Romana actually worked under Augustus. Pax Americana is a horrible, horrible joke.

 

[Highlandheadbanger]

Too many children.

No, really. Think about it.
Children are filthy, loud, and obnoxious little snots.
When they grow up, they become filthy, loud, and obnoxious adults.
Or sometimes, politicians.
Or soldiers.
Or terrorists.
Or rapists.
Or regular people who just contribute to making everything worse.

Instead of blaming "people," I blame "children."
It makes me sound like a mean old man and damnit, I like that.

Did you get that from somewhere? Cuase it sounds familiar...

Not that I know of. I don't really watch many comedians, and they're the only ones I can think of who would say such a thing.
As far as I know, I made it up.
With my brain.

As long as you didn't make it up...
with your ass

...He's on to me.

You say patriotic like it's a good thing...

Also, this. Being all, "My country is pretty cool" is fine.
It's when you get into "MY COUNTRY IS BETTER THAN YOURS DIE BITCHES STAB STAB SHOOT LYNCH" that problems arise.
Sadly most patriotism falls into the latter category.

Yeah... but's that's more nationalism than patriotism...

The word this bloke is looking for is Chauvenism or Jingoism.

Patriotism and Nationalism are treated synonymously in some cultures, but as a general rule:

Patriotism is a love for and identification with a certain language, religion, ethics, and law of an area or group.

Nationalism is a love for and identification with a nation-state.

I guess the modern use could be interchangeable, but patriotism is usually preferred over nationalism in diction, the main exception being in nuetral analysis of political and social practices, movements, and studies for academia.

I like your thinking, patriotism is, after all, "a virtue of the wicked" as Mr. Wilde put it.

Thats a good way of putting it.