Can we agree on this? Biggest problem in the world today.

[O maestre]

shame and pride are at the root of all social conflicts, and those conflicts can usually escalate into something much worse

 

[O maestre]

Even if we were to dissolve, the American ideals would surely live on (who cannot cherish freedom and having one's faith and hard work rewarded?), and as long as that holds true...buddy, America will never die.

sorry to be nitpicking your post, but for the last time americans did invent freedom nor do they have a patent on it. both emancipation from slavery and the right for women's suffrage came before in europe, hell at a point the only two nations practicing apartheid was america and south africa. however you are right about that it has become a part of the american identity to be freedom loving as well as freedom fighting


and i am fully aware that this contradicts what i wrote about shame and pride, but i never wrote that i was not part of the problem

 

[Izakflashman]

eh, read your post...

Disprove my invisible pink unicorn, goddamnit.

You made up the unicorn and you know it. Lol. There we go.

I also know people PERSONALLY as you so loudly claim that would say without doubt that "god" got them through the hardest parts of their life. The difference is that I think they've warped their own concious (sp) with that of the idea of god and holy text, when the "god" they hear is really themselves. Having personally been raised in a deeply christian environment, and been driven to mental breakdown by insecurity and cult-bombing techniques of an evangelical church, and having "Felt" the presence of god myself, I can say that I "PERSONALLY" know that your point is bunk, because convincing somone that god exists is very very easy when they are intensely stressed.

I'm not gonna say that there aren't moments of truth in what you say. There are some douche bags out there that are good at that sorta stuff. Swaying emotions with that music they play when their like "Come to the front if you want to give your life to jesus." It always bugs me when they do that cause people get caught up in the moment. And I'm not gonna say that your wrong at all, other than, I have never been an overly stressed person, being fairly well balanced and aware of stuff that goes on & I'm convinced God exists.
Sucks that you have had a bad experience with the whole deal.

God isn't helping anyone. You only THINK THIS. In your HEAD. Prayer has no effect. Scientific fact. Source: Double blind study of 742 heart surgery patients being prayed for shows no statistical difference (NY times), amongst others.

There have been some interesting coincidences when people have prayed. I'm not gonna take an article from a newspaper as some sort of solid proof.

As for being intolerant of people who believe a book telling them to kill people needlessly is the word of god and should be followed? Yeah. I'm fine with that.

Wow, perhaps I should have read his post, what sorta bible has he been reading where it tells you to kill people? Did he only get as far as the old testament? ha ha.

And yes, we can prove the origins of life, and already have done. Maybe not to the degree of detail you'd require, but still enough to know that the idea of a supreme creator is pretty, well, stupid.

People have proved the origins of life? wow, I thought it was still in that theory stage where a quiltwork of experiments, assumptions, and philosophy has been stacked on one another.

And yes, putting your entire life on the line for something that you can't prove exists IS crazy.

heh heh, yea it is.

As for Tomatos rant about sociopathic people, religious people are worse because their believe in their rightness is founded on an ancient, barbaric text instead of reason and logic.

Reason and logic have come up with some cool things, like common sense. Its also been getting idle, and thought up a lot of shit ideas to. And the barbaric text I think your refering to has some of the most beautiful poetry ever seen by man (In its original hebrew. Not to catchy in our mongrel english.)

Just some side comments, hope I don't piss anyone off or anything.

 

[Xshu]

I think this is the point where you've just totally lost control. There is no evidence for any god, and no proof at all. You can call it "evidence", but that's only if you choose to interpret it so.

You do know the difference between evidence and proof, right? Semen in a body can be evidence of rape, but it could also just be evidence of recent sex. Likewise, the complicated nature of the universe could be evidence of intelligent design, or it could just be coincidence.

Disprove my invisible pink unicorn, goddamnit.

By virtue of its invisibility, it cannot possibly be pink. If it had a colour, it would not be invisible. You should really pick the details of your fictional entities more carefully.

Fail. Burden of proof is on the claimant, like it or not.

This doesn't seem quite right. No, I know you're correct, but you also seem to be an atheist. If you were agnostic, this would be a valid argument, because you're not claiming anything one way or another. However, as an atheist you are specifically claiming the non-existence of God, which is still a claim, and that claim cannot be backed up with solid proof for obvious reasons (that being the unfalsifiability of God's existence). Absence of proof is not proof of absence, so you'll have to show your proof as well, which is impossible. All you have to work with are the same philosophical and hypothetical reasons people have used for years to try to (dis)prove God, because even concrete proof of the big bang will just have philosophers saying that God used the big bang to create the universe.

My point is about the moon made of cheese idea was that some ideas are much more well founded in evidence, proof and reasoning than others.

Evidence does not mean what you think it means, it seems. There's no proof, of course, but their is both evidence and reasoning. As far as we are aware, complicated machines that humans build cannot spontaneously generate. Earth and everything on it is a complicated machine, and indeed the entire universe is an extremely complicated machine, and so there is some reason in assuming intelligent design. That doesn't make it true by a long shot, but saying there's no reasoning is silly. Young Earth Creationism is silly, because it defies evolutionary biology with no reason for doing so, but simple belief in intelligent design does not defy any laws of any science.

I also know people PERSONALLY as you so loudly claim that would say without doubt that "god" got them through the hardest parts of their life. The difference is that I think they've warped their own concious (sp) with that of the idea of god and holy text, when the "god" they hear is really themselves.

I'm pretty sure that's the whole point. Desperate people who've lost hope can potentially give up on life and die. Desperate people who still think God will help them through a situation can find resolve within themselves and attribute it to God. Of course, God might have actually put that resolve there, but whether he did or not is a moot point. Either way, belief still helps the person. I don't understand how you feel that's a bad thing.

Having personally been raised in a deeply christian environment, and been driven to mental breakdown by insecurity and cult-bombing techniques of an evangelical church, and having "Felt" the presence of god myself, I can say that I "PERSONALLY" know that your point is bunk, because convincing somone that god exists is very very easy when they are intensely stressed.

Revealing that you have a personal grudge against religion is not a good way to convince people that you're using logic. Now I'm under the impression that you're just spiteful toward religion and you're lashing out at it for hurting you.

I was also driven to breakdown due to religion, having my core personality judged as wrong and evil by my mother and my faith. It was a highly distressing scenario wherein I felt I had betrayed God, my family, and everyone around me by being myself. Of course I came to terms with that and I no longer believe these things, but I've been able to keep a level head about it. The solution was not to "hate back" at those who disapproved of me, it was to accept their beliefs without letting them change me. Anyone who actually pays any serious attention to Christianity knows that at its core it is about forgiveness and charity and all that hippy love Jesus was spreading. He was defending hookers for God's sake. Anyone claiming to be Christian who uses it as an excuse to kill "those filthy sinners" is obviously not following the beliefs of their chosen deity. Most people who uses it as a reason to be intolerant would have just found another excuse if they weren't religious. Perhaps someone looking to hate on gays would say it was evolutionarily unsound and that the person is a freak of nature. Some people will use any excuse to hate what they don't understand.

As for being intolerant of people who believe a book telling them to kill people needlessly is the word of god and should be followed? Yeah. I'm fine with that.

Then the biggest problem in the world today is people like you: intolerant people.

And yes, we can prove the origins of life, and already have done. Maybe not to the degree of detail you'd require, but still enough to know that the idea of a supreme creator is pretty, well, stupid.

The theory of evolution is only in contrast with Young Earth Creationism. Even solid proof of the theory of evolution does not disprove the existence of God by a long shot, since that only means God used evolution to engineer life. Forgive the pun, but theism is willing to evolve.

And yes, putting your entire life on the line for something that you can't prove exists IS crazy.

Maybe. But then, nobody can prove love is anything more than just a broken emotion that causes people to act crazy. Doesn't mean I wouldn't die for those I love.

It's funny because now you'll look like some dick who hates love if you argue with me. XD

Oh come on, take a joke. Sheesh.

As for "that's disgusting" comment, it's WHAT RELIGIONS DO. They're who motto is "We offer hope and comfort." People who need hope and comfort? Needy and vunerable people. Why do you think the church of scientology targets drug addicts with it's Narconon programme?

That's a little different. The church of scientology is actively harming people. Even if I admitted religion was bad, the churches themselves would be doing nothing more than imposing their beliefs on people to get them to do what they want. They're not kidnapping people who try to leave, or denying them mental health. Not in civilized countries, anyways. Besides, we have the scientology founder on record saying religion is a good way to make money. It's not like there's documentation of Moses saying he knows a great way to control people. XD

As for Tomatos rant about sociopathic people, religious people are worse because their believe in their rightness is founded on an ancient, barbaric text instead of reason and logic.

It's really not all that barbaric. Have you read the Bible? A lot of the early parts are barbaric, but hey, they took place a long time ago when people were barbaric. A lot of it is really civilized, though. Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and so on, you know? Religion can have some pretty good and wholesome messages in it. You just can't take it all literally like some people do, and you have to try to understand the context in which the stuff is written.

And when it comes down to it, some people really do need to be told God will kick their ass when they die to keep them from being bad. It's a sad truth, but it's there. Of course, proving that would require access to an alternate reality without religion, but it's logical to think that the "fear of God" as it is has affected some people in the last few thousand years.

 

[Baby Tea]

Since trying to explain tolerance to someone who was obviously hurt by something, and is unable to reason that not everyone who has faith is like those who hurt him, is like try to break down a wall with a spoon, I'll end my participation in this thread (For real, this time) with something positive:

This is to...

SNIP!

And

SNIP!

Thank you both for letting me know that there are others on this forum who may not share beliefs or a single faith, but can understand and respect those who do. And that senseless rage against a large group of people for the crimes of the minority isn't going to help anyone, in any situation.

You know I once heard a story about a group of Christians who were attending a college where atheism was very prominent (Not sure of the school, but it's a true story). The group got together, and came up with an idea to put a 'confessional booth' right in the middle of the campus. So they set it up, and other students thought it was ridiculous. Finally, one student with a point to prove walked into the booth, sat down and mockingly said 'So, now I suppose I confess all my 'sins'?' And the guy on the other side of the booth said, 'Nope. Now we confess the sins of Christianity to you.'

People have done terrible things in the name of religion, undeniably. But that doesn't mean that every religion is this evil entity working towards the death and destruction of everyone different than they are.
I'm not looking to excuse the actions of people who hurt others (or you) in the name of God.
I'm not looking to excuse the things done in the past (Or present) in the name of religion.

I am looking for some understanding and respect for those who do believe. I'm not trying to convert you or anyone else (I would say that men don't convert anyone, but rather God does...but I'll leave that theological debate for PMs if anyone wants to have at it). I just want a mutual understanding. We don't have to agree on who or what God is, or how many gods there are, or what book is the holiest, or if God is even there at all.

This isn't a debate about whose 'truth' is true. This is about respect and tolerance for other people's worldviews, even in the face of those small minority who are out to ruin it for the rest of us who have a faith.

We're not all like that.
Let's try to get along.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

Disprove my invisible pink unicorn, goddamnit.

" I can prove the moon is made of rock. You cannot prove God doesn't exist."

Fail. Burden of proof is on the claimant, like it or not.

No. There is no "burden of proof" required. People are entitled to believe what they wish without having to prove it to your satisfaction. I am quite sure that you are ultra-super-powerful and do know what is right for everyone on earth, but until the governments of the world see your greatness and pass laws on people only being allowed to believe what you allow them too they have no burden to prove to anyone but themselves.

My point is about the moon made of cheese idea was that some ideas are much more well founded in evidence, proof and reasoning than others.

"Then you know NOTHING about religion"

I also know people PERSONALLY as you so loudly claim that would say without doubt that "god" got them through the hardest parts of their life. The difference is that I think they've warped their own concious (sp) with that of the idea of god and holy text, when the "god" they hear is really themselves. Having personally been raised in a deeply christian environment, and been driven to mental breakdown by insecurity and cult-bombing techniques of an evangelical church, and having "Felt" the presence of god myself, I can say that I "PERSONALLY" know that your point is bunk, because convincing somone that god exists is very very easy when they are intensely stressed.

God isn't helping anyone. You only THINK THIS. In your HEAD. Prayer has no effect. Scientific fact. Source: Double blind study of 742 heart surgery patients being prayed for shows no statistical difference (NY times), amongst others.

Did you ever read Gulivers travels? Or no, don't bother with that. Watch the Futurama episode "Godfellas". It answers these very questions.

As for being intolerant of people who believe a book telling them to kill people needlessly is the word of god and should be followed? Yeah. I'm fine with that.

Erm.... seriously, you are being very unscientific here. You are living on a planet which is inhabited by literally billions of religious people. If they followed a book telling them to needlessly kill, then there would be far far fewer wouldn't there? Would you like to explain why so many people can be religious yet be peaceful, loving, and hardworking individuals? You also might want to explain why so many religious people are pacifists.

And yes, we can prove the origins of life, and already have done. Maybe not to the degree of detail you'd require, but still enough to know that the idea of a supreme creator is pretty, well, stupid.

And yes, putting your entire life on the line for something that you can't prove exists IS crazy.

As for "that's disgusting" comment, it's WHAT RELIGIONS DO. They're who motto is "We offer hope and comfort." People who need hope and comfort? Needy and vunerable people. Why do you think the church of scientology targets drug addicts with it's Narconon programme?

You know, at best, very little about religion, that much is crystal clear.

Incidentally, if scientology = religion then Stalinist methodology = atheism. That is a very Goodwinesque argument you used there, and it has made you look rather foolish. There is a middle ground you know.

You know nothing about the current theories of evolution or even about the scientific method. Science proves nothing. It disproves. And there is zero proof about the formation of life on this planet and how it got started. There are only theories, and there are multiple evolutionary theories at the moment. So stop asserting science has answers to things that it very obviously doesn't.

As for Tomatos rant about sociopathic people, religious people are worse because their believe in their rightness is founded on an ancient, barbaric text instead of reason and logic.

That wasn't a rant. That was a reasonable post. The only "ranting" being done in this thread at the moment is by you with your theophobic edicts, why is that?

Incidentally, there is no "reason and logic" to be found in morality and ethics. Science has nothing at all to say on the subject of 'right' and 'wrong'. Therefore, if you ever ask for justice, or believe you are "owed" something, or think that there is such a thing as "bad" and "good", then you are believing in something that can't be scientifically proven for which there is no evidence.

Pot, meet kettle.

 

[Grubnar]

World hunger?
Overpopulation?
Religion inspired hate and war?
Poverty?

It can all be fixed with education.
Therefor I will say that the biggest problem in the world today is lack of educadion.

 

[Scarecrow38]

The biggest problem in the world today is that the United States of America (and Western Allies) are targeting and being targeted by militia groups in the Middle East and that area of the world, both of whom are thoroughly convinced that they are doing the right thing to save their people from the other. They both fully believe that the other side is going to be the death of them and so, neither side will ever back down because each successful strike by one side will spur the other side to retaliate and escalate their efforts.

Quite the interesting example of cultural relativity really.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

The biggest problem in the world today is that the United States of America (and Western Allies) are targeting and being targeted by militia groups in the Middle East and that area of the world, both of whom are thoroughly convinced that they are doing the right thing to save their people from the other. They both fully believe that the other side is going to be the death of them and so, neither side will ever back down because each successful strike by one side will spur the other side to retaliate and escalate their efforts.

Quite the interesting example of cultural relativity really.

Yep. One of the two groups is going to have to be the first take their finger off the trigger and put the gun away, then ask for the opposition to do the same. The key point is the Israel-Palestinian conflict, if that could be resolved successfully then a lot of this shit would stop overnight. But that looks extremely unlikely.

 

[Mizaki]

It is idealism. This thread is 6 pages of proof.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

"The church of scientology is actively harming people"

And Al Quada and the State of Israel aren't?

Nothing to do with religion. If you actually knew anything about it you might be able to talk in this thread without looking like a theophobic bigot.

"every religion is this evil entity working towards the death and destruction of everyone different than they are"

Oh for fucks sake. You'd have to be blind not see that that's exactly what religions are. Religions are sets of stupid, backward ideas on how to act based on what some mythical deity says. You can argue that believers want to live in peace until the eagles choke, but at the end of the day religion teaches irrational nonsense, often with irrational nonsense that tells people to kill other people because of who they are. Kill the Unbeliever! Kill the jew! Kill the gays! Burn the witches! That is what religion ends up as, directly or indirectly. Even the most peaceful religions tell people to waste their lives trying to seek god or nirvana or whatever instead of doing something constructive for human progress. Religions are sets of irrational and evil ideas, and no amount of goody goody living in peace will change that, because the commandment to suspend personal reasoning in the name of a deity is still written in the "Holy books".

Evangelistic atheism. I love the hypocracy on display here.

"I am looking for some understanding and respect for those who do believe."

Irrational belief is not worthy of respect, especially that belief encourages an agenda to make other people suffer because they are different. Note: Pro lifers, jihad, christian lobbyists against gay rights and sex education, oppression of women by islam, israel commiting genocide against palestine because they have a "Divine right" to the land, and on, and on.

Ahhh. Goodwinism 101. How many times has Baby_Tea oppressed anyone, lobbied against gays or anything else? And once again, the Middle East conflict has nothing to do with religion.

Ohh and by the way, Pro Lifers? You mean like these? http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html

 

[Zani]

Too many children.

No, really. Think about it.
Children are filthy, loud, and obnoxious little snots.
When they grow up, they become filthy, loud, and obnoxious adults.
Or sometimes, politicians.
Or soldiers.
Or terrorists.
Or rapists.
Or regular people who just contribute to making everything worse.

Instead of blaming "people," I blame "children."
It makes me sound like a mean old man and damnit, I like that.

You're right, our children will be the deaths of us, we may want to consider "removing" some babies bible style!

More seriously, our biggest problem at the moment would be the recession and the deterioration of third-world countries.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

whats the biggest problem in the world today? selfishness

I agree.

We want everything to go our way, we want what is best for us even at the expense of other people.

Thus compassion and care of those less fortunate than you, while noble, do not score with the voters.

Thus we get corrupt and greedy politicians making decisions on our behalf.

The knock on effect of being a selfish twat can be felt all around the world. People need to try to be nice to each other and to some extent set aside their own desires and greed for the sake of other people.

As Gautama Buddha said:- "Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared."

 

[Kellerb]

injustice.

 

[SonofSeth]

There is no problem, all is proceeding as planed.

Ops, I've said too much!

 

[Sir_Montague]

Personally, greed is the bane of everyone's existence. People kill because of it, and lives are ruined daily with greed in mind.

Cmon now, greed is human nature. No reason to complain about it.

But surpressing it would save so many lives and rid the world of so many problems if people could just control themselves. Yes it's human nature, but there's so many reasons to complain about it.

And not a damn thing you can do about it. Seriously, suppress human nature? I think Nick Cage said it best in "Lord of War", "You can fight a lot of things, but you can't fight your biology. You'll always lose."

I would have to say touche to that. Definitely a good point. And obviously common sense will never be common, so while I can suppress my own greedy needs, not anyone else can. Idk if I'd be taken my words of wisdom from Nick Cage though man. Good movie though.