I was going to say that.BonsaiK said:
Anyways, even if the basic theme boiled down to its bare bones isn't original, you can still think of some new twist or way of expressing it to liven it up.
Can we please stop complaining about Originality
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Anyways, even if the basic theme boiled down to its bare bones isn't original, you can still think of some new twist or way of expressing it to liven it up.
Can we have supernatural vs. nature? I think that would be fun to watch, who says that everything has to be about man?
Heltalia had an interesting idea of having entire countries represented by people, can't we do more stuff like that?
Heltalia had an interesting idea of having entire countries represented by people, can't we do more stuff like that?
I figured you of all people would avoid the obvious joke on "man vs whatever" of saying something in place of man. Man is a catch all term for the story telling tropes.BonsaiK said:
more on topic...
I will not call a story in and of itself unoriginal for having a plot that boils down to good guy stops bad guy from destroying the world or what have you, I'll call it unoriginal for not telling the story very well or originally. Narrative is a huge thing. You can make your plot that is simply man vs man very well fleshed out and engaging and original. You can also make it boring and unoriginal even if it is the same base plot, you gotta tell the story right.
"Man" isn't considered a "catch-all" these days, and in fact hasn't been considered such for several decades. In the childlike fantasy world that people who contribute to TV Tropes inhabit, they're probably not up to speed with developments in language and culture (or choose to ignore them out of the kind of willful ignorance and stupidity that is typical of that site), hence the propogation of this myth that saying "man" when you're actually referring to both sexes is an acceptable practice. It is not. This is not recent - it has not been for a long time. It's the 21st century and we simply don't do this stuff anymore in western society. It wasn't even acceptable in most of the latter half of the previous century. Therefore it's very appropriate to pass comment on such instances when they occur these days, because it's such a startling anachronism. It would be like driving down the street and seeing someone in front of you driving a Model T Ford. Sure, Model T Fords have a certain charm, but their day is gone, and therefore it would be difficult not to make a comment when you saw one.LeonLethality said:
I'm sorry to say this but to quote Sherlock Holmes quoting another fellow
"There is nothing new under son. It has all been done before"
There is truly nothing original left in the world. Every time we make a game we use the phrase "It's like..." for a reason. The truth is certain trends will alway come full circle and if we find out that cycle we can take advantage of it in life. That's the way it is when it comes to fashion, games, relationships, even history in time. Just find the patterns
"There is nothing new under son. It has all been done before"
There is truly nothing original left in the world. Every time we make a game we use the phrase "It's like..." for a reason. The truth is certain trends will alway come full circle and if we find out that cycle we can take advantage of it in life. That's the way it is when it comes to fashion, games, relationships, even history in time. Just find the patterns
Does 'Man vs. Man' encompass a man battling with his own psyche? Or would that fall under the category of 'Man vs. Nature'? Or 'Man vs. God/Religion'?
Well, that's according to Christopher Booker and there's no reason why his version is necessarily any more correct that the OPs, or anyone else's. Of course, worthless junk site TV Tropes treats Booker's "seven basic plots" as the gospel truth, but in more reputable media it's certainly been called into disrepute quite a bit:s69-5 said:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2004/nov/21/fiction.features
Is "man" is being used in the figurative sense? So Man v Alien is counted as Man v Man right?
Being a pedant I would change God/Religion to Deities/Ideology. That way you include the whole "man spots the society he lives in is wrong" type of plot. Also it would include fighting against higher/lower powers that aren't necessarily Gods.
Being a pedant I would change God/Religion to Deities/Ideology. That way you include the whole "man spots the society he lives in is wrong" type of plot. Also it would include fighting against higher/lower powers that aren't necessarily Gods.
Okay... Here's an example of what people mean by "originality" and why OP's post doesn't even begin to address with issue...
The movie Terminator was released, therefore tapping the "man vs. machine/technology" plot archetype (I know the Terminator series wasn't the first, but it's a good recent example). Then The Matrix was released... Oh, I guess there were still some original stories left to tell within the "man vs. machine" framework, after all.
My basic point is that, within any given archetype, there are still innumerable stories to be told. Sure, they may all fall within one of the seven archetypes, but that's almost like lumping all of sci-fi together.
The movie Terminator was released, therefore tapping the "man vs. machine/technology" plot archetype (I know the Terminator series wasn't the first, but it's a good recent example). Then The Matrix was released... Oh, I guess there were still some original stories left to tell within the "man vs. machine" framework, after all.
My basic point is that, within any given archetype, there are still innumerable stories to be told. Sure, they may all fall within one of the seven archetypes, but that's almost like lumping all of sci-fi together.
Well look at music - there are only seven notes in music but depending on their arrangement you get original compositons all the time. Just because there are only a few base scenarios for storytelling to take doesn't limit their possibilities one bit.
Actually, there's just two kinds of plots: "Going on a journey", or "A stranger comes to town". At least, if you don't mind simplifying things a bit.
Now, I do believe that there's no such thing as originality anymore. Every story that can be done has been done in some form or another already. There's only repackaging things with different art, different settings, and mixed up character archetypes. But while there's no story you can tell that won't resemble another story, there ARE stories you can tell that aren't told often enough. And there are still combinations of character/setting/art/story that haven't been tried yet. And there are also stories that can be told better than how they were originally told.
Now, I do believe that there's no such thing as originality anymore. Every story that can be done has been done in some form or another already. There's only repackaging things with different art, different settings, and mixed up character archetypes. But while there's no story you can tell that won't resemble another story, there ARE stories you can tell that aren't told often enough. And there are still combinations of character/setting/art/story that haven't been tried yet. And there are also stories that can be told better than how they were originally told.
I get what you're trying to say but at this point, 'Man' should be changed to 'protagonist' since at this point in time, you play as many more things than man (like my Elves, Dwarves, Androids, Women and, Deities of Rock...etc...)
But anyway: these people are inserted into those seven basic plots and into those plots are mixed B and, C plots (in TV and movies anyway: Games will sometimes give you Z plots if you count side and companion quests)
I guess it could be argued that intermingling the 7 above plots could form new plots. A common means of extending story involves going in order. Look at Final Fantasy, those go from Vs. Man to Vs. Nature to, Vs. Self to, Vs. God in the course of their narratives.
But anyway: these people are inserted into those seven basic plots and into those plots are mixed B and, C plots (in TV and movies anyway: Games will sometimes give you Z plots if you count side and companion quests)
I guess it could be argued that intermingling the 7 above plots could form new plots. A common means of extending story involves going in order. Look at Final Fantasy, those go from Vs. Man to Vs. Nature to, Vs. Self to, Vs. God in the course of their narratives.
And where and why shouldnt it be acceptable? AFAIK its still a linguistic fact that man="human beings in general; the human race" Its just as sexist as the terms Dog or Cat. Everything else is pseudoscience rubbish.BonsaiK said:
It is truly a pathetic day when I can refute an argument about unoriginal stories with 'Borderlands'.
Newsflash: Certain games have stories that don't revolve around conflict between two archetypes. There's plenty of games exploring themes of exploration, self discovery, and capitalistic ventures. Which category of yours does Animal Crossing fit? What of freakin POKEMON RED, where villains are merely subplots to the overarching plot of becoming the overall 'best there ever was'? Dozens of Racing/Sports games certainly lack your precious villain archetypes too, but every so often one includes the threadbare framework of a story (one ignored often, but still there).
Besides, everyone knows stories get rehashed fairly often. Every batman game to date has had the same Hero vs X number of super villians as the basic premise. But Arkham Asylum was the first to present the game in such a satisfying new light, adding a gorgeous amount of polish to a worn-out story.
We clamor for originality because it gets tiring to see the same formulaic pattern game after game. Its why sequels get backlash for not improving on old concepts. It's why 'franchises' like CoD are seen as repetitive and boring. It's why Silent Hill 2 is one of the most celebrated games today, despite having mediocre gameplay watering down the experience.
TL;DR
OP's list is inconclusive. He's missing a few story types. Also, originality of story can also refer to a newer presentation of an older concept. OP seems to be aware of this already, so I guess he was arguing semantics only.
Newsflash: Certain games have stories that don't revolve around conflict between two archetypes. There's plenty of games exploring themes of exploration, self discovery, and capitalistic ventures. Which category of yours does Animal Crossing fit? What of freakin POKEMON RED, where villains are merely subplots to the overarching plot of becoming the overall 'best there ever was'? Dozens of Racing/Sports games certainly lack your precious villain archetypes too, but every so often one includes the threadbare framework of a story (one ignored often, but still there).
Besides, everyone knows stories get rehashed fairly often. Every batman game to date has had the same Hero vs X number of super villians as the basic premise. But Arkham Asylum was the first to present the game in such a satisfying new light, adding a gorgeous amount of polish to a worn-out story.
We clamor for originality because it gets tiring to see the same formulaic pattern game after game. Its why sequels get backlash for not improving on old concepts. It's why 'franchises' like CoD are seen as repetitive and boring. It's why Silent Hill 2 is one of the most celebrated games today, despite having mediocre gameplay watering down the experience.
TL;DR
OP's list is inconclusive. He's missing a few story types. Also, originality of story can also refer to a newer presentation of an older concept. OP seems to be aware of this already, so I guess he was arguing semantics only.