Can we talk about the "friend zone" and "nice guys" for a moment?

[tobyornottoby]

What? I never said that the guy is only kind because he wants to be rewarded.
The guys complain not because "Oh no I was nice to her and I didn't get into her pants" but because they despair at the idea that being a controlling, aggressive dickhead is the only way to get girls.
I think you would agree that it's a horrifying proposition.

The world is not black and white. There are a lot of shades of assertiveness between 'spineless' and 'controlling'.

No, you think "I want red shoes," not "I want shoes that are qualitatively similar to these shoes."
If you don't like a particular character trait about a person (which you see as analogous to a certain unwanted quality in a shoe) then you don't want someone like the person.
You want someone who shares some characteristics, but you can't say "I want a guy like you"
That's just not true.

When I ask "Do you know what time it is?" I do not want a literal yes or no answer. A lot of things we say shouldn't be interpreted in a literal mathematical sense.

Especially not when it's women saying them =p

 

[Doctor Glocktor]

I love how there's no way out when it comes to asking out girls.

Asking out a girl at face value? You shallow asshole, you only care about her looks!

Try to get to know a girl before you consider asking her out? You must be a manipulative creeper douchebag! You are DECEIVING her!

 

[Eamar]

I love how there's no way out when it comes to asking out girls.

Asking out a girl at face value? You shallow asshole, you only care about her looks!

Try to get to know a girl before you consider asking her out? You must be a manipulative creeper douchebag! You are DECEIVING her!

What's with all the black and white thinking in this thread? There's a difference between getting to know someone a bit before making a move (hanging out a few times, perhaps with mutual friends or whatever), and being a "pretend friend" for a couple of years then acting all surprised and indignant when she doesn't return your feelings.

Purely anecdotal evidence, I know, but in my experience both my current, long-term relationship and the most successful relationships my friends have had have come about as a result of the middle ground. Not jumping straight in after ten minutes, but not waiting around for years either.

Thinking about it, I think the main problem with this thread is that people (not necessarily divided along gender lines) are misunderstanding each other, probably as a result of using their individual experiences as a template.

 

[Raven's Nest]

Well to be fair I don't really see value in any kind of companionship, male or female, friendly or romantic. Also I never said I'd actually pay for a prostitute; so far I've been perfectly comfortable to go without. I was just saying it's a much quicker and cheaper alternative. I rarely talk with anyone unless it's relevant to some kind of goal I have, and stay indoors. I got TV and video games in here and so far there's never been anything beyond my home that I would consider enjoyable.

If just getting your kicks is all you desired, then sure, a prostitute will serve you well, unfortunately (from my perspective) there's no shortage of them offering it.

It saddens me that you don't really value company of any kind. Surely as a psych major, you can see how this can pave the way for a really miserable existence?

"It is easy in the world to live after the world's opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own; but the great man is he who in the midst of the crowd keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

Since I believe this quote very much, I won't jostle you for preferring your own company. But perhaps I'll simply say it's really worth coming out of your shell once in a while to see if the wind is blowing in a new direction...

 

[Doctor Glocktor]

I love how there's no way out when it comes to asking out girls.

Asking out a girl at face value? You shallow asshole, you only care about her looks!

Try to get to know a girl before you consider asking her out? You must be a manipulative creeper douchebag! You are DECEIVING her!

What's with all the black and white thinking in this thread? There's a difference between getting to know someone a bit before making a move (hanging out a few times, perhaps with mutual friends or whatever), and being a "pretend friend" for a couple of years then acting all surprised and indignant when she doesn't return your feelings.

Purely anecdotal evidence, I know, but in my experience both my current, long-term relationship and the most successful relationships my friends have had have come about as a result of the middle ground. Not jumping straight in after ten minutes, but not waiting around for years either.

Thinking about it, I think the main problem with this thread is that people (not necessarily divided along gender lines) are misunderstanding each other, probably as a result of using their individual experiences as a template.

Heh, I apologize. Still, when I see posts like:

To summarize: If you are attracted to a girl, tell her upfront instead of being friends first because that's kind of deceiving and not a very nice thing to do because in the end you will both have hurt feelings.

I simply have to wonder what the hell people are thinking.

'Excuse me miss, I just wanted you to know I want to sex you. That is all.'

There is a LOT of extreme in this thread; that face that there are people saying 'HOW DARE YOU BE FRIENDS FIRST' is very, very silly.

Also, rejection hurts. To say someone is a jerk or whatever word you want to use over being sore from rejection is just being mean for the sake of some perceived injustice they've committed.

 

[VivaciousDeimos]

I enjoy the way most of the people in this thread have not known what the fuck they're talking about, despite apparently living in the same reality as the rest of us.

1) No, the guy that is friends with the girl and then asks her out wasn't friends with her purely to get in her pants, that's a retarded oversimplification. The person that does that *ISN'T A NICE GUY*. It isn't a "No True Scotsman" when you say Scotsmen are Scotsmen and Russians aren't.

Annnnnd that brings us full circle to my original point. No, obviously not everyone does that, but there are people who do--of either gender--and they are commonly called "Nice Guys/Girls", which can lead to confusion when these threads pop up.

 

[archvile93]

Well to be fair I don't really see value in any kind of companionship, male or female, friendly or romantic. Also I never said I'd actually pay for a prostitute; so far I've been perfectly comfortable to go without. I was just saying it's a much quicker and cheaper alternative. I rarely talk with anyone unless it's relevant to some kind of goal I have, and stay indoors. I got TV and video games in here and so far there's never been anything beyond my home that I would consider enjoyable.

If just getting your kicks is all you desired, then sure, a prostitute will serve you well, unfortunately (from my perspective) there's no shortage of them offering it.

It saddens me that you don't really value company of any kind. Surely as a psych major, you can see how this can pave the way for a really miserable existence?

"It is easy in the world to live after the world's opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own; but the great man is he who in the midst of the crowd keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

Since I believe this quote very much, I won't jostle you for preferring your own company. But perhaps I'll simply say it's really worth coming out of your shell once in a while to see if the wind is blowing in a new direction...

Well I took a different quote to heart. From the words of Jean-Paul Satre, "Hell is other people." Also as I said before I doubt I'll ever hire a prostitute, because it is still rather expensive and I can't believe it really feels good enough to be worth the cost. I've come to the conclusion people's raving about it is the result social pressure and while I can't remember the exact term, it boils down to people will enjoy things more when they work hard for it by lying to themselves. When people have put a lot of time and effort into getting or maintianing something they will say it's better than it really is. Why? because they have to justify to themselves why they put so effort into it, and it's better to lie to themselves and say it's awsome than to let reailty hit them in the face and realize they spent so much time and effort on something pointless. This is one of the reasons abused spouses stay with husbands or wives. Also I don't believe there is anything morally wrong with being a prostitute. I still don't think it's a good profession to be in, but that's only because it's dangerous.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Also, when a girl says "I wish I could find a guy like you" but they don't want you, think of it this way: (stealing the metaphor from a friend of mine) Say you are out shopping and you want to buy a red pair of shoes. You get to the shoe store and find a nice pair of red shoes, but that particular pair of shoes isn't exactly suited to your taste so you continue looking and maybe you end up getting a pair of shoes completely different to what you were originally looking for. So when a girl says, "I wish I could find a guy like you" it means she likes your qualities, but isn't attracted to you. This does not make her a hypocrite, or a *****. So please stop whining and making yourselves out to be a victim of some heinous crime because the girl you like doesn't like you.

Sorry for the little rant, I've just seen too many "friend zone" related memes and rage comics recently. 0___0

It also doesn't make the "Wish I could find a guy like you" anything more then a back-handed compliment.

Doesn't excuse the backlash, just saying that's a phrase people should reeaalllllyyyyy stop uttering.

 

[Smooth Operator]

I love how there's no way out when it comes to asking out girls.

Asking out a girl at face value? You shallow asshole, you only care about her looks!

Try to get to know a girl before you consider asking her out? You must be a manipulative creeper douchebag! You are DECEIVING her!

Well mate it is high time we have this talk then, as the owner of a penis you are at fault for every woe this world has to offer, this is most important information before you get into any sort of relationship so you won't be shocked that every problem in the relationship will be put on you.

You simply haveto get in that "I'm a bastard" mindset and work with it.
"You there, woman, tomorrow date?", perfectly simple, and if that doesn't work you might try a van and rope... do be warned there are some authorities that might frown upon this approach.

 

[Raven's Nest]

Well I took a different quote to heart. From the words of Jean-Paul Satre, "Hell is other people." Also as I said before I doubt I'll ever hire a prostitute, because it is still rather expensive and I can't believe it really feels good enough to be worth the cost. I've come to the conclusion people's raving about it is the result social pressure and while I can't remember the exact term, it boils down to people will enjoy things more when they work hard for it by lying to themselves. When people have put a lot of time and effort into getting or maintianing something they will say it's better than it really is. Why? because they have to justify to themselves why they put so effort into it, and it's better to lie to themselves and say it's awsome than to let reailty hit them in the face and realize they spent so much time and effort on something pointless. This is one of the reasons abused spouses stay with husbands or wives. Also I don't believe there is anything morally wrong with being a prostitute. I still don't think it's a good profession to be in, but that's only because it's dangerous.

Sex really isn't the only reason people seek romantic companionship. I've never heard of a successful relationship based solely around sex. To me sex is nice, It's a nice way to blow off some steam, a nice way to reciprocate feelings to your partner, a nice way to gain intimacy, trust and understanding with another individual. Is it necessary? Absolutely not. You seem to have a warped idea that every body is talking sex, that it is the means to an end or the end itself. That couldn't be farther from the truth in a lot of cases.

Some people spend their lives pursuing sex, for sexual gratification's sake alone. But they are seriously in the minority. You need to get out and talk to people about this. Even at 22 i'm sure you will find peers around you that will tell you the same. I think it would be good for you to stop hiding yourself away and just talk to people, listen to people. Forget the media or porn or things that objectify and promote sex. Go and gather evidence for yourself, re-assess it and broaden your perspective on the whole issue. Perhaps just start with a forum, make a thread, ask people why they get into relationships, what makes them happy what makes them unhappy. That should at least interest you from the psychology angle.

 

[guidance]

So wait, how friend-zoning works is guys try to be pretend friends? I thought it was like your friends for a long time, and over time you find the other person attractive, and try to ask them out. How can you find a person attractive without being they're friends?

All I got from this thread is that, when people like the looks of someone, to get close to them they try to become friends, and to do that they are nice. This leaves a problem happening when the objective person (sorry I forget words and just put in something random to make it sound normal) declines and they feel like they put in all this time and effort and it went to waste. The other option is to straight up ask, but then you look I think it was desperate or creepy. I can't think of a solution to this problem

I've never had to face this, as I've only ever found people I am already friends with attractive. Sure I've seen attractive people but they are just people, friends you have something in common with, and they know who you are, and can already show some interest. How about make friends with a bunch of people, and then a year later realize you like at least one.

 

[JoeThree]

In my experience the friend zone is a response to what we want. I tend to take a while to develop feelings for people (real feelings, anyway, beyond just lust) due to trust issues, and so I end up wanting that friendship and being attracted to it. In short, on some level, I want that close friendship to be forever, sure some sex would be great too, but it's that closeness I really desire, so sometimes I'll begin to crave a relationship with a friend I happen to also find attractive.

Most people, however, are initially attracted to people when they first meet them, and the more exposure they have to a person, the less they want them - there have even been studies that show it, and yes, it's proven that this impulse and desire for someone new is more potent in women.

I'm also going to say that it is superficial, and I'm sorry if people can't admit they're shallow on some levels, but anyone who thinks otherwise is lying to themselves and others. I'm shallow, do I have high standards?, not really, but I am. We all have something we need to be attracted to someone, even if it's just someone of a certain gender, height, weight, eye color (I'm reaching), but that's all there is to it.

Also, while women get called on friend zoning guys, it does go the other way. I did once have a girl who I friend zoned because we were very close, I was very close with her ex-boyfriend, and I didn't want the drama. Hell, I was even attracted to her, but I didn't think it was worth the drama.

In short, the friend zone happens. I think it's stupid to blame anyone, though. We can't help what we want, or who we're attracted to. Yes, it can be frustrating, I have had girls I've loved who wanted me only as a friend - guess what, we're still friends. If they blamed me I would resent that, because as they can't exactly control not wanting me, I can't entirely control wanting them. Of course, what we then do upon rejection is a different story, but barring some other reaction, a few weeks to let the awkwardness pass should be enough for anyone, and if you really do value the friendship, things should be fine.

 

[museofdoom]

I simply have to wonder what the hell people are thinking.

'Excuse me miss, I just wanted you to know I want to sex you. That is all.'

There is a LOT of extreme in this thread; that face that there are people saying 'HOW DARE YOU BE FRIENDS FIRST' is very, very silly.

Also, rejection hurts. To say someone is a jerk or whatever word you want to use over being sore from rejection is just being mean for the sake of some perceived injustice they've committed.

*sigh* of course you shouldn't say "heyy durrr i wanna bang you" the moment you meet someone. But there is a huge difference between meeting a person, hanging out once or twice and making your attraction/feelings clear after getting to know them some, and being friends with the person for months on end and then suddenly coming out and saying "I want a relationship." By doing that, you're both gonna be hurt. You're gonna be hurt worse because your feelings have had time to fester, and the girl is going to be hurt because she loses a friend and knows that you were only interested in getting with her and weren't actually into the friendship at all.

If you are attracted to someone when you meet them, get to know them a little and TELL THEM. It saves everyone a whole lot of hurt feelings.

 

[Doctor Glocktor]

I simply have to wonder what the hell people are thinking.

'Excuse me miss, I just wanted you to know I want to sex you. That is all.'

There is a LOT of extreme in this thread; that face that there are people saying 'HOW DARE YOU BE FRIENDS FIRST' is very, very silly.

Also, rejection hurts. To say someone is a jerk or whatever word you want to use over being sore from rejection is just being mean for the sake of some perceived injustice they've committed.

*sigh* of course you shouldn't say "heyy durrr i wanna bang you" the moment you meet someone. But there is a huge difference between meeting a person, hanging out once or twice and making your attraction/feelings clear after getting to know them some, and being friends with the person for months on end and then suddenly coming out and saying "I want a relationship." By doing that, you're both gonna be hurt. You're gonna be hurt worse because your feelings have had time to fester, and the girl is going to be hurt because she loses a friend and knows that you were only interested in getting with her and weren't actually into the friendship at all.

If you are attracted to someone when you meet them, get to know them a little and TELL THEM. It saves everyone a whole lot of hurt feelings.

That fact that you think a guy can't be into the friendship AND want to go out with her is both pretty telling and pretty offensive.

Fun fact: Guys can think about more than one thing at once!

And honestly, I really want to know what you think 'making your feelings clear' means. Do you ask her out? Do you tell her you find her attractive? You certainly sound like you don't intend to make it easy for the poor bastard.

And I want you to tell me if a guy saying 'I WANT CHA' after two days of hanging out is correct in what you mean.

Or perhaps... subtlety exists?!

 

[Moth_Monk]

And now the girl is left without a friend, and the knowledge that you were only friends with her in hopes of getting in her pants.

You say that like it's a bad thing. In reality the initial reason any romantic relationship is started is sexual attraction - the main purpose in life is to (despite being circular logic) reproduce. Let's put it this way: You wouldn't "hit on" people you thought were ugly, would you?

 

[spacemutant IV]

^ Also, you don't want to stick around someone you 'want' in a romantical way, but can't have. Keeps your mind in a bad place, hinders you from moving on.

 

[Comando96]

OK just a little thing here.

Someone said when I was in highschool that I was one of the most popular lads in the year... and at first I thought... lol wut? But this persons reasoning was oddly sound. I was nice and friendly to pretty much everyone. I didn't create enemies for myself and and was... (well apart from the druggies and the pissed every night crowds) I could just blend into any group. Not to say I did... but I could.

Now... why is there the stereotype that gya men have lots of friends who are women?
Because that they are gay these women can then have male friends... who they know don't want to fuck them >.>

Now I have never been in a relationship (I know what a shock, with various issues with suicidal depression and a follow on impact being low self esteem, you'd think I'd be a magnet[/sarcasm]) and fins that some times female friends will rather talk to me than other guys if they are not sure about a certain guy who isn't in a relationship (or they don't view it as a secure one)...
Why? Because I'm friendly and never seek anything more than friendship... because [-see list of mental problems-]

...its sort of related...

 

[museofdoom]

And honestly, I really want to know what you think 'making your feelings clear' means. Do you ask her out? Do you tell her you find her attractive? You certainly sound like you don't intend to make it easy for the poor bastard.

And I want you to tell me if a guy saying 'I WANT CHA' after two days of hanging out is correct in what you mean.

Or perhaps... subtlety exists?!

When I say 'make your feelings clear' I mean something like this: "Hey I think you're really cute/neat/spiffy/awesome, and I would like to spend more time with you in hopes that perhaps we could pursue the possibility of a relationship." That would be making your feelings clear.

My boyfriend and I met, talked a lot, hung out a few times, and within that span of time he told me I was cute, and that he believed our personalities complimented each other perfectly, and he wanted to spend a lot more time with me. And voila, I knew his intentions, and where I stood with him, and now we are dating. It's not rocket science.

How hard is it to wrap your head around the concept of being honest? If you meet a girl, and you want to be more than friends, JUST DON'T BE FRIENDS and save you both a whole lot of butt hurt.

It's a different situation entirely if you are friends with a girl and develop feelings for her sometime during your friendship.