Can we talk about the "friend zone" and "nice guys" for a moment?

[Condiments]

But being a nice-guy and friendzoning is a consequence of the way dating works. Most guy's at a young age don't have the courage to go up to a girl they barely know and ask her out. I can't blame them because i was once like that. With age girls become less scary, you also become more self-confident because you know that girls are only human like you. And you get better at wearing masks.

Pretty much this. "Nice Guy Syndrome" is just an unfortunate fact of current gender roles/courting. While there are 'Assholes' who berate women's self confidence to establish higher social value so they can pick them up, there is also 'Nice Guys'(another kind of asshole), who try to warm up to their love interest in order to gather the courage to ask them out. It'd be easier to simply express interest right away, but the beginning stages of dating can be terrifying for the uninitiated, especially for the guy who has to make the first move. I'm not justifying their actions, just explaining the facts.

There really isn't much for discussion here really. Its as useless argument "why do men avoid strong willed independent women"?

 

[Hagi]

As far as I'm concerned the "Friend Zone" is an entirely fictional thing made up by teenagers to avoid admitting their own inexperience and clumsiness.

You take one boy/girl with little romantic experience and average or below average social skills. Add a crush on another boy/girl with little romantic experience and average or below average social skills.

Being inexperienced and not a social genius the first boy/girl will fumble around for a bit, get his/her bearings and slowly carefully move forward. In the process a friendship happens to begin. After a period of friendship where things seem to be going well the boy/girl gathers up his/her courage and attempts to advance the relationship further. But being inexperienced this is done in a rather clumsy way like say a direct confession of feelings.

Now we get the other person, also inexperienced and not a social genius. He/she failed to recognize the feelings of the other and when the clumsy confession comes in all likelihood gives out an equally clumsy response, usually in the format of "No but you're such a great person etc.". Lacking the social experience needed to realize that a person in love, like the other, will pay attention to what comes after the "but", not what comes before.

It's just something that happens when you put a lot of teenagers together. Most of us aren't social geniuses and don't have the necessary experience to compensate. Nothing wrong with it, it's just another of life's lessons.

 

[Palademon]

How about when they say "any girl would be lucky to have you"?
Can I be annoyed then?

I don't usually complain about the other things but this really gets to me.

Edit: Also, I'm a particular victim of this kind of situation. Not that I deserve things, not that the girl in the one in the wrong, and not simply because I'm a coward. It's that I have seemingly characteristics I want in a partner, so asking them out as soon as I meet them is pointless, since one conversation may tell me nothing, and it's stupid to go by looks. And I often won't develop feelings for someone until spending time with them as a friend.

Edit2: Also, I had an unfortunate situation were the girl wouldn't out right say no to me and kept re-filling my hope so much that afterwards, not only was I not attracted to her anymore, I didn't want to be her friend anymore, which makes me look like a manipulative dick, so I have to at least try to be friends with her. But it wasn't entirely her fault. I was a whiny *****.

 

[PureChaos]

as other's have said, it's when they say 'i'd like to meet someone just like you' that is annoying rather than the fact they don't have the same feelings.

 

[b3nn3tt]

From the guy's perspective getting to know a girl they like and treating them as a friend is a way of working up the courage to ask them out- which is a rather nerve-racking experience for many guys because it makes or breaks their self-confidence. Rationally speaking, it makes a fair bit of sense to get to know a girl you like before asking them out to check she arn't a *****. Plus, if a guy's attracted to a girl he wants to spend time in her company anyway, so he's going to be inclined to seek her company, get to know her better in doing so, and eventually work up the courage to ask her out.

I do understand though that this practise is inadvertently exploitive of the girl in question.

Not inadvertently. What you've just described is a guy tricking a girl into a friendship with the ulterior motive of asking her out at a later date. This girl thinks she's gained a friend, and then at some point down the road, said friend asks her out. She says no, because she sees him as a friend, yet when she does this he ends the friendship. The girl is then left with the knowledge that actually, this guy never wanted to be her friend, that all the time she thought they'd been friends he'd actually been scheming to make it something more. And you think guys like this are getting a bit too much stick?

 

[Thaluikhain]

As mentioned before, this has been done to death ehre already, and it's been generally established that the OP is right.

On the other hand, a year or so ago this was not the case.

So yeah. It's not fair or right that this "friendzone" effect exists, but it does, because you just don't stop wanting someone because they don't want them back.

Er...not quite sure what that has specifically to do with "friendzoning", any more than it does with unrequited lust/love (and, TBH, it's usually the former) in general. Friendzoning seems to be just another way of whining about it.

 

[JoesshittyOs]

As far as I'm concerned the "Friend Zone" is an entirely fictional thing made up by teenagers to avoid admitting their own inexperience and clumsiness.

I've never particularly viewed the term "friend zoned" as a whiny thing. It's just a term to described that the person you've been pursuing only views you as a friend. It's not fictional, and it's something that you are well within your power to change. It's just a phrase, no different from saying something like "she hates me".

I've just always been confused with people like you who try to turn it into a thing people say to avoid the fact that it's somehow their fault that they didn't win over the person. It's just a simple term to describe the relationship between two people.

 

[Doclector]

As mentioned before, this has been done to death ehre already, and it's been generally established that the OP is right.

On the other hand, a year or so ago this was not the case.

So yeah. It's not fair or right that this "friendzone" effect exists, but it does, because you just don't stop wanting someone because they don't want them back.

Er...not quite sure what that has specifically to do with "friendzoning", any more than it does with unrequited lust/love (and, TBH, it's usually the former) in general. Friendzoning seems to be just another way of whining about it.

What I'm saying is that put in that position, it's hard not to whine. Or at least to complain, and talk about it. There seems to be this assumption that it doesn't hurt.

 

[Hagi]

From the guy's perspective getting to know a girl they like and treating them as a friend is a way of working up the courage to ask them out- which is a rather nerve-racking experience for many guys because it makes or breaks their self-confidence. Rationally speaking, it makes a fair bit of sense to get to know a girl you like before asking them out to check she arn't a *****. Plus, if a guy's attracted to a girl he wants to spend time in her company anyway, so he's going to be inclined to seek her company, get to know her better in doing so, and eventually work up the courage to ask her out.

I do understand though that this practise is inadvertently exploitive of the girl in question.

Not inadvertently. What you've just described is a guy tricking a girl into a friendship with the ulterior motive of asking her out at a later date. This girl thinks she's gained a friend, and then at some point down the road, said friend asks her out. She says no, because she sees him as a friend, yet when she does this he ends the friendship. The girl is then left with the knowledge that actually, this guy never wanted to be her friend, that all the time she thought they'd been friends he'd actually been scheming to make it something more. And you think guys like this are getting a bit too much stick?

Yup, they are.

Nobody is tricking anybody into anything.

These guys aren't sitting at home twirling their moustaches thinking how they're going to sucker another girl into becoming their friend so that when she finally believes she's found a real friend they can drop the big "I'm in love with you" bomb and laugh all the way back home as she tries to reject them in the least hurtful manner (that actually hurts the most) before breaking off the friendship and heading home to find another innocent girl to sucker into a friendship whilst sitting in a big leather chair petting an evil cat.

They're just inexperienced teenagers doing exactly what inexperienced teenagers do. Fucking things up so that they can gain the experience needed to no longer fuck things up.

There's no bad guy or girl in this story. It's just random social awkwardness. Because, big surprise, social interaction is actually quite hard.

 

[Thaluikhain]

What I'm saying is that put in that position, it's hard not to whine. Or at least to complain, and talk about it. There seems to be this assumption that it doesn't hurt.

Oh, to not be happy with it, I can understand. But the term is generally used in depictions of it as a complete tragedy and betrayal by people who can't grasp that the world isn't obliged to love them.

 

[Doclector]

What I'm saying is that put in that position, it's hard not to whine. Or at least to complain, and talk about it. There seems to be this assumption that it doesn't hurt.

Oh, to not be happy with it, I can understand. But the term is generally used in depictions of it as a complete tragedy and betrayal by people who can't grasp that the world isn't obliged to love them.

That I can get. Thing is, it takes a long time to finally accept that you're just not the kind of person who can be wanted, and even then it hurts.

 

[AhumbleKnight]

I don't consider myself a "nice guy" and I have never been "friend-zoned" so maybe I am missing something, but why assume the guy thinks he's owed something? couldn't it be possible that he was simply hurt by the rejection, because well...rejection hurts?

Also, no one wants to be "friends" with someone they have feelings for that doesn't want them back, it's just too painful; is that really so hard to understand.

I disagree. In the past I have been very good friends with a couple of different women (at different times in my life) and have been attracted to them. When I confessed my feelings and desire to take things further each one reacted differently. One told my straight up that she wasn't interested and why. It was honest, sincear, and helpful. I was able to move on and we continued to be very good friends afterwards. The other didn't wan't to hurt my feelings so she said nothing (or to be more accurate, "I am not ready for another relationship yet"). I heard on more than one occasion the phrase 'why can't I find somebody like you...' and it hurt, a lot. It wasn't until over a year later that I was able to drag a difinitive answer out of her. I had to be an ass to do it but it gave me what I needed. Her honest answer. After that I was able to move on and we remained very good friends.

The friend zone is real. And it does suck to be in it. In my experience (and those of people I know) it is only a problem for as long as an honest answer is held back.

 

[Hagi]

As far as I'm concerned the "Friend Zone" is an entirely fictional thing made up by teenagers to avoid admitting their own inexperience and clumsiness.

I've never particularly viewed the term "friend zoned" as a whiny thing. It's just a term to described that the person you've been pursuing only views you as a friend. It's not fictional, and it's something that you are well within your power to change. It's just a phrase, no different from saying something like "she hates me".

I've just always been confused with people like you who try to turn it into a thing people say to avoid the fact that it's somehow their fault that they didn't win over the person. It's just a simple term to describe the relationship between two people.

There's no blame here. No bad guy who did everything wrong and so naturally didn't get the girl. No bad girl who doesn't know what the heck she wants and thus doesn't get what she really needs (according to another person of course).

The fictional part I'm referring to however is how it's commonly used. That females apparently have two categories in their brain which they use to classify males. And if you're nice and friendly then you get put into the "friend-zone". It's used as some kind of neurological truth about how women deep-down work. Which, I believe, is fictional.

But as a simple term to describe one party wanting a friendship and the other wanting a relationship? Sure, it'd be entirely real as that. That just doesn't seem to be the context I see it used in most often. But then again I might just be hanging around the wrong parts of the Internet.

 

[Broady Brio]

While I did exactly what was described up to the rejection part, I realized she had a boyfriend at the time, so I didn't put it past her that she rejected me, I was kind of expecting her to say no anyway.

 

[b3nn3tt]

From the guy's perspective getting to know a girl they like and treating them as a friend is a way of working up the courage to ask them out- which is a rather nerve-racking experience for many guys because it makes or breaks their self-confidence. Rationally speaking, it makes a fair bit of sense to get to know a girl you like before asking them out to check she arn't a *****. Plus, if a guy's attracted to a girl he wants to spend time in her company anyway, so he's going to be inclined to seek her company, get to know her better in doing so, and eventually work up the courage to ask her out.

I do understand though that this practise is inadvertently exploitive of the girl in question.

Not inadvertently. What you've just described is a guy tricking a girl into a friendship with the ulterior motive of asking her out at a later date. This girl thinks she's gained a friend, and then at some point down the road, said friend asks her out. She says no, because she sees him as a friend, yet when she does this he ends the friendship. The girl is then left with the knowledge that actually, this guy never wanted to be her friend, that all the time she thought they'd been friends he'd actually been scheming to make it something more. And you think guys like this are getting a bit too much stick?

Yup, they are.

Nobody is tricking anybody into anything.

These guys aren't sitting at home twirling their moustaches thinking how they're going to sucker another girl into becoming their friend so that when she finally believes she's found a real friend they can drop the big "I'm in love with you" bomb and laugh all the way back home as she tries to reject them in the least hurtful manner (that actually hurts the most) before breaking off the friendship and heading home to find another innocent girl to sucker into a friendship whilst sitting in a big leather chair petting an evil cat.

They're just inexperienced teenagers doing exactly what inexperienced teenagers do. Fucking things up so that they can gain the experience needed to no longer fuck things up.

There's no bad guy or girl in this story. It's just random social awkwardness. Because, big surprise, social interaction is actually quite hard.

Ok, I may have been somewhat hyperbolic when tallking about plans and ulterior motives and such. I do understand that the people generally in this position are young and perhaps don't have the finesse or confidence to actually boldly state their interest in a person and do what they consider to be the next best thing, namely become friends with them.

The problem, in my mind, lies when they end the friendship after (if?) they have been rejected, as it essentially nullifies all of the effort that both sides put into it. I remember when I was younger and did similar things when I liked someone. But when I did actually work up the courage to ask them out, when I got rejected I actually maintained a friendship with these people. Hell, some of them I'm even friends with now. I just don't understand the people that will end a friendship because things didn't pan out the way they thought they would. Surely by that point you'd actually have developed enough of a friendship with the person to either actually see them as a friend anyway, or to still be friends after rejection.

The one thing that I can't abide in these situations is when the rejectee complains about 'friend-zoned'. they were already friends. The whole point is that nothing has actually changed. You (non-specific person in the situation) were friends, wanted to take it further and got rejected, and are in fact still friends.

 

[Thaluikhain]

What I'm saying is that put in that position, it's hard not to whine. Or at least to complain, and talk about it. There seems to be this assumption that it doesn't hurt.

Oh, to not be happy with it, I can understand. But the term is generally used in depictions of it as a complete tragedy and betrayal by people who can't grasp that the world isn't obliged to love them.

That I can get. Thing is, it takes a long time to finally accept that you're just not the kind of person who can be wanted, and even then it hurts.

I can understand that (provided it's true, and not wallowing in self-pity at the first sign of an imperfect life).

I've got nothing against that, so long as people deal with that in their own time, or are helped by those who want to help them. If people decide the way to deal with their personal problems is to make them everyone else's problems as well, I'm not surprised people don't want them.

Now, I'm not saying that's the most common response, but it's the one that's more visible.

 

[Xangba]

"I wish I could find a guy like you" it means she likes your qualities, but isn't attracted to you.

That line right there I have issues with. That is literally like saying "I like everything about you except your face." And that most certainly is a ***** thing.

Anyway, it's never been about being felt owed anything (well some people think that way, but you have idiots with everything) it's about how a woman can complain about never finding a guy that supports her, or "treats her right" ect, ect, when the guy who has been friend-zoned has done nothing but that. You're putting the blame entirely on the guy who, most of the time, just does nothing except be a nice guy to the woman and develops romantic feelings. Guy expresses such to girl, guy gets spurned, and generally it's "whatever" at that point and things return to normal. Sure some guys keep their romantic feelings, but they're still friends and generally don't try anything else and eventually move on. I haven't seen many cases of the guy being nice just in order to date said woman, as those aren't the "nice guys" they claim to be. Most people don't ***** about being stuck there and think the girl is a ***** for it, most just ***** when a girl complains about never finding a decent guy.

By the way, a lot of the time the woman also gives the guy the idea to ask her out, because I've seen plenty of times with my friends the woman saying things like "You're such a great guy," or "You're single? Anybody would be lucky to date you though!" (yes, actual quotes) so she really isn't being blameless here. Also a lot of people have a rejection recovery period, where wondering "why doesn't she like me?" or something similar, but that's just rejection in general.

So TL;DR version is that the guy generally doesn't ***** and call the woman a ***** for the friend-zone, what you hear more often is wondering why a woman will complain about never finding a decent guy when they apparently have one sitting in the friend zone.

 

[Guffe]

Snippytyschnapperson

Nice read and yeah I've been thinking about these things too, being friends isn't bad, besides if people know being a nice person to someone "frind zones" them, then ask her out immediately without actually becoming friends first, is that logical?

 

[Hagi]

Ok, I may have been somewhat hyperbolic when tallking about plans and ulterior motives and such. I do understand that the people generally in this position are young and perhaps don't have the finesse or confidence to actually boldly state their interest in a person and do what they consider to be the next best thing, namely become friends with them.

The problem, in my mind, lies when they end the friendship after (if?) they have been rejected, as it essentially nullifies all of the effort that both sides put into it. I remember when I was younger and did similar things when I liked someone. But when I did actually work up the courage to ask them out, when I got rejected I actually maintained a friendship with these people. Hell, some of them I'm even friends with now. I just don't understand the people that will end a friendship because things didn't pan out the way they thought they would. Surely by that point you'd actually have developed enough of a friendship with the person to either actually see them as a friend anyway, or to still be friends after rejection.

The one thing that I can't abide in these situations is when the rejectee complains about 'friend-zoned'. they were already friends. The whole point is that nothing has actually changed. You (non-specific person in the situation) were friends, wanted to take it further and got rejected, and are in fact still friends.

Personally don't really see the problem. Friendships sometimes do end for a large variety of reasons, but that doesn't make them meaningless.

And something does change after getting rejected. The friendship loses it's potential to grow into a romantic relationship. And as someone who's in love it can really hurt to spend time with someone you really, really want to be more with whilst at the same time knowing he/she doesn't want the same with you.

Is it really still the friendship it was when one person is constantly hurting?

Emotions and especially infatuations aren't really something we can control. Just being friends might be enough to keep an infatuation intact even if you know the other person isn't interested. There's no off-switch on stuff like that.

Should they stay friends if doing that prevents one of them from moving on? Isn't the best thing to break off the friendship, appreciate the fun you had together and both move on to greener pastures?

And yeah, that hurts. For both parties. But frankly, hurt is just a part of life. It's not a bad thing to happen, on the contrary. If you hurt then it means you care, that's a good thing.

Sometimes you stay friends. Sometimes you don't. It just happens. Not every story has a bad guy. Human interaction is just complicated.