Can we talk about the "friend zone" and "nice guys" for a moment?

[tobyornottoby]

It disappoints me to see women complaining that they want nice, dependable guys and then STILL go out with and have sex with the guys that treat them like shit. So maybe both sexes need to modify their behavior instead of blaming one or the other... Please? At least think about it.

If I'm having dinner and I'm missing a knife, I'll complain I want a knife. But I want a knife to go with my dinner. There's no point in getting just a knife.

Those girls probably prefer a knifeless dinner over a dinnerless knife.

 

[Sarge034]

It disappoints me to see women complaining that they want nice, dependable guys and then STILL go out with and have sex with the guys that treat them like shit. So maybe both sexes need to modify their behavior instead of blaming one or the other... Please? At least think about it.

If I'm having dinner and I'm missing a knife, I'll complain I want a knife. But I want a knife to go with my dinner. There's no point in getting just a knife.

Those girls probably prefer a knifeless dinner over a dinnerless knife.

I don't understand what you are trying to say. I was saying that "It disappoints me to see women complaining that they want nice, dependable guys and then STILL go out with and have sex with the guys that treat them like shit."

To use your analogy, the woman has a knife to the right of her plate but instead chooses to complain about not having a knife and uses the spoon to try to cut her food.

If you are going to respond actually say something instead of just leaving an ambiguous analogy.

 

[tobyornottoby]

It disappoints me to see women complaining that they want nice, dependable guys and then STILL go out with and have sex with the guys that treat them like shit. So maybe both sexes need to modify their behavior instead of blaming one or the other... Please? At least think about it.

If I'm having dinner and I'm missing a knife, I'll complain I want a knife. But I want a knife to go with my dinner. There's no point in getting just a knife.

Those girls probably prefer a knifeless dinner over a dinnerless knife.

I don't understand what you are trying to say. I was saying that "It disappoints me to see women complaining that they want nice, dependable guys and then STILL go out with and have sex with the guys that treat them like shit."

To use your analogy, the woman has a knife to the right of her plate but instead chooses to complain about not having a knife and uses the spoon to try to cut her food.

If you are going to respond actually say something instead of just leaving an ambiguous analogy.

Sorry, what I was trying to say is that shit-treating guys are like a dinner without a knife, whereas nice guys are like a knife without a dinner.

The reason that women STILL go out and have sex with the guys that treat them like shit is likely because those guys have something to offer that nice guys don't. And they rather go for that.

People complain about things all the time. Like airlines. But people still fly. Because they prefer that over not flying.

 

[Bmagada]

I've said it before, I'll say it again. The "friend zone" is the sweet spot. Any guy who treats this like the end of the line is either weak mentally or lacks confidence. If you are losing a war you always go with intel. You can find out more about a girl here than anywhere else. Really, there's no such thing as a place where girls won't change their mind about you. Well unless you do something really creepy or fucked up. Besides this way you also get to know all of her annoying habits and you can avoid the mess all together. Of the handful of times I have been there, I just learned what they were looking for and I happened to be that really nice guy they hang out with all the time. In the hypothetical situation where they don't eventually see your charm, then they probably aren't worth you time anyways.

 

[Sarge034]

Sorry, what I was trying to say is that shit-treating guys are like a dinner without a knife, whereas nice guys are like a knife without a dinner.

This still has no meaning to me because it is still an ambiguous analogy.

The reason that women STILL go out and have sex with the guys that treat them like shit is likely because those guys have something to offer that nice guys don't. And they rather go for that.

Yea, they are the steriotypical agressive/overly confident "bad boy". So why ***** and moan that they want something if they really don't? That is what makes me angry.

People complain about things all the time. Like airlines. But people still fly. Because they prefer that over not flying.

Correct, but people don't tend to fly with the airlines that don't offer what they want if others do.

 

[Necron_warrior]

Since this is a predominantly male community, I figured talking about this here would result in the most interesting feedback. And I suppose I'm in the mood for a little controversy.

So you become friends with a female, and you really like her in that way. You spend time with her, you're kind to her, and you're always doing her favors. Eventually you pluck up the courage to confess your attraction and then GASP! she doesn't like you that way, and wants to stay friends! So now you go to all your buddies and cry that you were "friend zoned". Oh my goodness how dare that biotch not have any romantic feelings towards you!! You weren't a jerk to her so you were entitled to a relationship with her! And since your plans to get a little action were in vain, you cease being friends with the girl. And now the girl is left without a friend, and the knowledge that you were only friends with her in hopes of getting in her pants.

Do you realize how ridiculous whining about being "friend zoned" is? And that if you really wanna be a nice guy, that you should be nice to girls even if you don't want in their pants?

Also, when a girl says "I wish I could find a guy like you" but they don't want you, think of it this way: (stealing the metaphor from a friend of mine) Say you are out shopping and you want to buy a red pair of shoes. You get to the shoe store and find a nice pair of red shoes, but that particular pair of shoes isn't exactly suited to your taste so you continue looking and maybe you end up getting a pair of shoes completely different to what you were originally looking for. So when a girl says, "I wish I could find a guy like you" it means she likes your qualities, but isn't attracted to you. This does not make her a hypocrite, or a *****. So please stop whining and making yourselves out to be a victim of some heinous crime because the girl you like doesn't like you.

Sorry for the little rant, I've just seen too many "friend zone" related memes and rage comics recently. 0___0

I wouldn't call it whiny, just sad.

I like this girl, we have lots of fun together and can talk to each other about anything. I know no other girl like her. I started to develop feelings for her, but when I asked her she simply preferred to be friends.

It made me really sad, but I'm still her friend as its still fun and its better than nothing at all. But I'm still sad that it'll only stay friends.

And no, its not any attempt to get into her pants or anything, I just want to make her smile more and I know I could if only I was given a chance.

(even if no-one reads this, its made me surprisingly better )

 

[Phasmal]

It disappoints me to see women complaining that they want nice, dependable guys and then STILL go out with and have sex with the guys that treat them like shit. So maybe both sexes need to modify their behavior instead of blaming one or the other... Please? At least think about it.

Generally because the friendzone'd `nice guys` are not nice and dependable, but doormats who put women on a pedestal.
Me and my boyfriend fight rarely, but if we didn't it would be pissing boring. If he just sat around agreeing with me all day it'd be like dating myself. And that's not what I want. You can get pissed off at people you love it doesn't mean you need to love someone you never fight with.

Also, me and my boyfriend were friends before we went out, I don't think there is a problem of being too much of a friend. The problem comes to when you put yourself so firmly in the friend category your friend can't think of you in a sexual/romantic way at all. Like a brother.

 

[tobyornottoby]

Yea, they are the steriotypical agressive/overly confident "bad boy". So why ***** and moan that they want something if they really don't? That is what makes me angry.

They do want it. They want a bad boy that's nice and dependable to them, some of the time =p

Correct, but people don't tend to fly with the airlines that don't offer what they want if others do.

Thing is, "Nice Guys" don't offer girls what they want either. Yes they offer being nice and reliable. But that's not the only thing a girl wants. And it's not the only thing one should be able to offer.

 

[Bertylicious]

"Friend Zone" is just another term for unrequited love and unrequited love is rubbish.

I guess the whole victim mentality arises because someone has to take blame for not being enough like the girl's father or exciting or maybe, you know, a woman and blaming yourself is a sure-fire way to become mentally ill.

 

[bleys2487]

Girls can be friend zoned too, lol.

 

[Sarge034]

Generally because the friendzone'd `nice guys` are not nice and dependable, but doormats who put women on a pedestal.
Me and my boyfriend fight rarely, but if we didn't it would be pissing boring. If he just sat around agreeing with me all day it'd be like dating myself. And that's not what I want. You can get pissed off at people you love it doesn't mean you need to love someone you never fight with.

Also, me and my boyfriend were friends before we went out, I don't think there is a problem of being too much of a friend. The problem comes to when you put yourself so firmly in the friend category your friend can't think of you in a sexual/romantic way at all. Like a brother.

Well I do love me some generalizations so let's continue that line of thought. Women are generally indecisive when making decisions and rarely ever know what they want. They will ***** and moan about wanting one thing while they don't even know what they want to begin with.

No? Not feeling it? Neither was I. Try to stay away from generalizations in the future, they tend to make people angry because of the assumptions you make about them.

You do make some interesting assumptions about me that I need to correct. I only consider myself a "nice guy" because I want to be a friend before I'm boyfriend and I do not befriend women simply to achieve sex as my end game. I legitimately want a relationship so I am disqualified from the "bad boy" club. I routinely disagree with my lady friends because I am honest with them. If a woman can't take opposing views from a friend I don't want to date her.

I do have a legitimate question for you. Not even being sarcastic. As I am not a woman I don't know how I would put myself too firmly in the friend category. Am I only supposed to be there for her sometimes? Do I act like a dick for no reason occasionally? Do I intentionally get involved with the stupid drama to make her resent me every once in a while? I don't know because I don't think a friend or a romantic interest should do any of those things.

They do want it. They want a bad boy that's nice and dependable to them, some of the time =p

So then why not say "I want a bad boy that will be there sometimes"? It is specifically the fact that they basically lie and say they want one thing and then disregard that criteria to go after the exact opposite of what they said they wanted that makes me mad.

Thing is, "Nice Guys" don't offer girls what they want either. Yes they offer being nice and reliable. But that's not the only thing a girl wants. And it's not the only thing one should be able to offer.

Correct, but a girl should not "friend zone" a guy if that is what she said she was looking for. Again with the anger at the lies.

However, the "bad boys" don't offer girls what they want either. Yes they offer being over confident and probably better looking. But that's not the only thing a girl wants. And it's not the only thing one should be able to offer. (See what I did there?) So again my problem is with them saying they want one thing and then dropping everything and running for the exact opposite.

 

[Phasmal]

Generally because the friendzone'd `nice guys` are not nice and dependable, but doormats who put women on a pedestal.
Me and my boyfriend fight rarely, but if we didn't it would be pissing boring. If he just sat around agreeing with me all day it'd be like dating myself. And that's not what I want. You can get pissed off at people you love it doesn't mean you need to love someone you never fight with.

Also, me and my boyfriend were friends before we went out, I don't think there is a problem of being too much of a friend. The problem comes to when you put yourself so firmly in the friend category your friend can't think of you in a sexual/romantic way at all. Like a brother.

Well I do love me some generalizations so let's continue that line of thought. Women are generally indecisive when making decisions and rarely ever know what they want. They will ***** and moan about wanting one thing while they don't even know what they want to begin with.

No? Not feeling it? Neither was I. Try to stay away from generalizations in the future, they tend to make people angry because of the assumptions you make about them.

You do make some interesting assumptions about me that I need to correct. I only consider myself a "nice guy" because I want to be a friend before I'm boyfriend and I do not befriend women simply to achieve sex as my end game. I legitimately want a relationship so I am disqualified from the "bad boy" club. I routinely disagree with my lady friends because I am honest with them. If a woman can't take opposing views from a friend I don't want to date her.

I do have a legitimate question for you. Not even being sarcastic. As I am not a woman I don't know how I would put myself too firmly in the friend category. Am I only supposed to be there for her sometimes? Do I act like a dick for no reason occasionally? Do I intentionally get involved with the stupid drama to make her resent me every once in a while? I don't know because I don't think a friend or a romantic interest should do any of those things.

When I said `Generally`, I thought it might give the hint I was speaking generally and not about you, I guess not. We can only speak from our own experience.

As for your question, make your intentions known. It's not hard. Being a friend who flirts is different to being a friend who drops his intentions out from nowhere. No, I don't know which one you are.

 

[Ricky 49]

ummm.... i get where your coming from
i had that kinda attitude of being upset with the whole friendzone nice guy thing .....when i was 15
i think basically people grow out of it. i now realize how stupid i was being but then again so were most people at that age so meh teenagers can be very silly is my point.

wait are people still doing this in their 20s?

 

[tobyornottoby]

So then why not say "I want a bad boy that will be there sometimes"? It is specifically the fact that they basically lie and say they want one thing and then disregard that criteria to go after the exact opposite of what they said they wanted that makes me mad.

If I say "Do you know what time it is?" I'm not looking for "Yes" as an answer. This is simply how language works. What you say and what you mean can be different things. When they say "I just want a nice guy" they do not simply mean "I just want a nice guy disregarding everything else".

However, the "bad boys" don't offer girls what they want either. Yes they offer being over confident and probably better looking. But that's not the only thing a girl wants. And it's not the only thing one should be able to offer. (See what I did there?)

Actually, being good-looking is a reason for people to want to have sex with (be attracted to) someone. Or being smart. Or being funny. Or whatever. That's how attraction works. That's why those girls go out with them and not with Nice Guys.

You're being nice and you're rewarded with friendship. That's what you've asked for.

 

[Sarge034]

When I said `Generally`, I thought it might give the hint I was speaking generally and not about you, I guess not. We can only speak from our own experience.

I said "generally" too. My point is that you should probably stay way from those as they require assumptions on your part. In a debate setting assuming you know something about someone and being wrong makes the other person upset and makes you look like.... well, bad.

As for your question, make your intentions known. It's not hard. Being a friend who flirts is different to being a friend who drops his intentions out from nowhere. No, I don't know which one you are.

You see, this is how you avoid generalizations!

Here in lies the problem for men like me. I want to be a friend to get to know the woman better. You know, see if a relationship could be more than just physical attraction. This makes it difficult to state my intentions because at that time I don't know what my intentions are. It would be like buying a car but the only information you are allowed to know beforehand is the color, make, and brand. State your intentions. Are you going to buy the car or not? Want to know the gas mileage? Not until you commit. Want to know the vehicle history? Not until you commit. Want to know if the damn thing even runs? Not until you commit.

I don't have commitment issues but walking up to a woman and saying something like, "Hay! What's your name? Cool! Look, I want to become your friend with the express purpose of becoming your boyfriend. See you around!" That just don't work, and yes I know I am being obtuse because you would start flirting or otherwise making your intentions known within the first month of becoming her friend.

 

[Phasmal]

You see, this is how you avoid generalizations!

Here in lies the problem for men like me. I want to be a friend to get to know the woman better. You know, see if a relationship could be more than just physical attraction. This makes it difficult to state my intentions because at that time I don't know what my intentions are. It would be like buying a car but the only information you are allowed to know beforehand is the color, make, and brand. State your intentions. Are you going to buy the car or not? Want to know the gas mileage? Not until you commit. Want to know the vehicle history? Not until you commit. Want to know if the damn thing even runs? Not until you commit.

I don't have commitment issues but walking up to a woman and saying something like, "Hay! What's your name? Cool! Look, I want to become your friend with the express purpose of becoming your boyfriend. See you around!" That just don't work, and yes I know I am being obtuse because you would start flirting or otherwise making your intentions known within the first month of becoming her friend.

Well, sadly, you can't really test-drive girlfriends. Relationships obviously don't always work out and usually you are gonna need to experience a few shit ones before you find the right one. Sometimes you just have to go for it, even if it might not work out.
Yeah, it sucks you can't always tell if someone's going to be mental without finding out first hand. But that is sadly just life. My previous boyfriend was fine for a while then turned out to be balls-to-the-walls mental. Even if we had stayed friends forever I probably still wouldn't have seen his bad side until we went out.

 

[Sarge034]

If I say "Do you know what time it is?" I'm not looking for "Yes" as an answer. This is simply how language works. What you say and what you mean can be different things. When they say "I just want a nice guy" they do not simply mean "I just want a nice guy disregarding everything else".

Correct. Context is important in any form of communication. So when you ask if I know what time it is the context is that we are both living in western society where the correct answer it the time and not "yes". The context of a female saying she wants a dependable guy that respects her is that he must have stable income, not have commitment issues, and not be in the relationship simply for sex. Now, I understand that just because someone has a steady income, no commitment issues, and wants an actual relationship they don't automatically get the girl, but the "bad boys" might have one of three. They might have a steady income, but they don't want a lasting relationship, and they certainly don't want anything but a sexual relationship. So lies... etc.

Actually, being good-looking is a reason for people to want to have sex with (be attracted to) someone. Or being smart. Or being funny. Or whatever. That's how attraction works. That's why those girls go out with them and not with Nice Guys.

First, you are assuming that nice guys are none of those things. Second... really? You are running with primal instinct on this one? Ok, than as a man I am hardwired by my primal instinct to spread my DNA to as many women as possible. How can I possibly want anything other than a sexual relationship? It might be because *GASP* I have overcome my primal urges to impregnate every woman I see because I am looking for more than just sex. Don't tell me I am more evolved than every woman on the planet.

You're being nice and you're rewarded with friendship. That's what you've asked for.

I asked for a chance to get to know the woman better to decide if I want pursue a relationship.

 

[Ricky 49]

Well, sadly, you can't really test-drive girlfriends. Relationships obviously don't always work out and usually you are gonna need to experience a few shit ones before you find the right one. Sometimes you just have to go for it, even if it might not work out.
Yeah, it sucks you can't always tell if someone's going to be mental without finding out first hand. But that is sadly just life. My previous boyfriend was fine for a while then turned out to be balls-to-the-walls mental. Even if we had stayed friends forever I probably still wouldn't have seen his bad side until we went out.

gotta agree here its annoying to say the least, i would much rather get to know a girl before getting into a relationship...sadly its very rare for that to happen, gotta state your intentions from very near the beginning, more often than not it doesn't work out. well in my case anyways.

 

[Sarge034]

Well, sadly, you can't really test-drive girlfriends. Relationships obviously don't always work out and usually you are gonna need to experience a few shit ones before you find the right one. Sometimes you just have to go for it, even if it might not work out.
Yeah, it sucks you can't always tell if someone's going to be mental without finding out first hand. But that is sadly just life. My previous boyfriend was fine for a while then turned out to be balls-to-the-walls mental. Even if we had stayed friends forever I probably still wouldn't have seen his bad side until we went out.

Now this is interesting. Most women I know expect men to go at their normally slower pace, but when a man wants to have a leisurely pre-dating get to know each other friendship it is suddenly too slow. Women will even stop the relationship from making any forward progress under the guise of "moving too fast" just to get a better feel for the guy, but I had better try no such thing!

Now don't get me wrong I have had some bad relationships and I have had some good ones. So I know the ropes, it just seems that in my age bracket more and more women are doing this stuff. So it might be an early to mid-20's thing... I don't know.