Cancer will always be with us, according to more recent research

[DefunctTheory]

The man was beyond crazy - He was a menace.

Love him or hate him, you can't argue with results.

I, in fact, can.

The man spent a huge amount of his career treating people deficient diets. It's hardly surprising that supplementing these patients diets made them better.

As for your newest... example...

In these selected six cases of probable viral infections

... and even if it somehow did, overdriving your immune system to the point where it can burn out meningitis in less than half an hour can't possibly be good for your... anything.

By what mechanism would the immune system (or... anything) be harmed with the introduction of high dose Vitamin C for acute infection?

Break it down for me. Show me exactly why it wouldn't work, and don't hold back on the technical details.

How about you break down why Vit C would help in the first place?

The answer to your question is - There is no logical reason high doses of vitamin C would cause permanent or serious harm to a patient. There's also zero reason to think it would help.

However

What Jack Action was pointing out was that anything that can crank your immune system up so effectively that you can fight off (full blown) meningitis in less then a day would have catastrophic affects on the body, be it vitamins, vaccine, or magical rain dance. That would be like putting a rocket on your car to get to work faster - It may very well work, but either the car, the building you work at, you, or everything wont be the same afterwards.

Vitamins aren't even remotely similar to homeopathy, which is based on using the smallest possible amount of a given medicament, and then diluting it down to essentially nothing with lots of water.

High dose Vitamin C therapy is the very antithesis of homeopathy. Vitmins are something you can measure, homeopathy is not.

And yet, both homeopathy and C-Therapy share one thing - A complete inability to show how in the hell they work.

 

[Jack Action]

There is absolutely no way in hell that would work as stated.

Tell that to the man in this news segment:

Much like with the rest of your post, someone already beat me to it (thanks for expanding, btw, Accursed): his doctors. The clip flat out said the doctors didn't think the vitamin C helped, and that it was changing his position that slightly cleared out his lungs giving him a chance.

...and I can tell you from experience that changing your position helps significantly when your lungs are filled with fluid, but I digress.

Let me ask you this: you'd agree that the people in charge of big pharma are smart, yes? Cruel, heartless, greedy, selfish and whatever sure, but you'd agree they can't be considered idiots, yes?

So with that in mind, do you really think wasting stupid amounts of money suppressing such a miracle cure is really the best way of making use of it they could come up with, instead of, oh, I dunno, creating a highly concentrated vitamin C pill combined with a few hundred other useless things to hide the fact that it's C doing all the work, and selling it for 10 bucks a pill? It may not sound like a lot, but it's not a permanent fix, so you have to keep taking it, and it seems to cure damn near anything except genetic defects. It's literally an eternal cash cow. Sniffles? 20 bucks. Meningitis? 100 bucks. AIDs? couple grand. Get them again? Time to buy more pills.

 

[Kanedias]

By your logic, red wine must be magic!

Well not magic, but certainly useful; https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/how-resveratrol-may-fight-aging

I admit; I take a Resveratrol supplement along with all those useless Vitamins. I think I'll live to be 120. *Fingers crossed*

I think you're not going to have that much luck, based on your beliefs, the first major illness that you don't get lucky with will end you. Of course, you are free to die as you see fit. I only care about these issues when they effect people who don't get to make a freely informed choice, like children. Adults should be free to live and die as they see fit.

 

[Mr.Savage]

How about you break down why Vit C would help in the first place?

Alright. Here's a tailor-made break down of how it works, and why it doesn't mess up your immune system.

If you don't want to read what follows, the video below will get you the same facts in under 4 minutes.



Read this linked article which specifies the War for Iron during an infection.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2920840/

And here is the break down:

In the presence of catalytic metals (iron for our purposes), ascorbate (Vitamin C) exhibits a very targeted, pro-oxidant effect, where the redox-active metal is reduced by ascorbate and then in turn reacts with oxygen, producing superoxide* that subsequently dismutes to produce H2O2, or hydrogen peroxide.

This is known as the "Fenton Reaction"; a process by which Vitamin C donates an electron to the iron in the pathogenic mircoorganism, the metal ion is then reduced from its oxidized form to its reduced form, such as Fe3+ or ferric to Fe2+ or ferrous iron. This reduction occurs by superoxide*, which itself is turned to hydrogen peroxide. It is the reduced metal ion that begins the pathogenic elimination, because in the Fenton Reaction, the reduced metal ion reacts with hydrogen peroxide to form hydroxyl radicals, which destroy the offending microorganism in a selective manner.

This does not overdrive the immune system at all, it acts in an entirely independent fashion. It actually works right along side the immune system.

* it should be noted that Superoxide is biologically quite toxic and is deployed naturally by the immune system to kill invading microorganisms.

What Jack Action was pointing out was that anything that can crank your immune system up so effectively that you can fight off (full blown) meningitis in less then a day would have catastrophic affects on the body... wont be the same afterwards.

See above.

Let me ask you this: you'd agree that the people in charge of big pharma are smart, yes? Cruel, heartless, greedy, selfish and whatever sure, but you'd agree they can't be considered idiots, yes?

None of them could get through the 6 to 8 years of college if they were idiots, so I'll agree, they aren't idiots.

So with that in mind, do you really think wasting stupid amounts of money suppressing such a miracle cure is really the best way of making use of it they could come up with, instead of, oh, I dunno, creating a highly concentrated vitamin C pill combined with a few hundred other useless things to hide the fact that it's C doing all the work, and selling it for 10 bucks a pill? It may not sound like a lot, but it's not a permanent fix, so you have to keep taking it, and it seems to cure damn near anything except genetic defects. It's literally an eternal cash cow. Sniffles? 20 bucks. Meningitis? 100 bucks. AIDs? couple grand. Get them again? Time to buy more pills.

At the risk of sounding mystical; the question answers itself. Specifically, you are talking about an essential nutrient here. Vitamins aren't suppressed, they're just undervalued and very misunderstood by medicine.

Vitamin C is a special case, in that it is not only a macro-nutrient, it also exhibits therapeutic effects when used in appropriate doses. The human body benefits from a relatively large quantity of it in relation to the other Vitamins, and should be considered separately from the other Vitamins with respect to dose.

Vitamin C has a very short half-life in a healthy body, and an extremely short half-life in a sick body. The body will use all the Vitamin C it can get, and can make do with less than ideal amounts.

https://biology.stackexchange.com/q...mans-not-produce-vitamin-c-like-other-mammals

So essentially, the permanent fix is to keep a delta of extra Vitamin C flowing in the blood stream to assist in the many things Vitamin C is useful for in the body.


This is not so much an issue of Big Pharma as it is of medicine in general undervaluing the capabilities of Vitamins. It's not a matter of being evil or greedy, it's simply that medicine always regarded Vitamins as something you take to prevent a deficiency disease like scurvy.

To them, if you don't have scurvy, you don't need any Vitamin C. Biochemical models suggest otherwise, but bear in mind; it took centuries for orthodox medicine to accept that Vitamin C would do anything useful at all (like cure scurvy).

Some physicians would stand by and see their patient die rather than use ascorbic acid because in their finite minds it exists only as a vitamin."

We never really escaped that dogmatic paradigm.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Spoiler

How about you break down why Vit C would help in the first place?

Alright. Here's a tailor-made break down of how it works, and why it doesn't mess up your immune system.

If you don't want to read what follows, the video below will get you the same facts in under 4 minutes.



Read this linked article which specifies the War for Iron during an infection.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2920840/

And here is the break down:

In the presence of catalytic metals (iron for our purposes), ascorbate (Vitamin C) exhibits a very targeted, pro-oxidant effect, where the redox-active metal is reduced by ascorbate and then in turn reacts with oxygen, producing superoxide* that subsequently dismutes to produce H2O2, or hydrogen peroxide.

This is known as the "Fenton Reaction"; a process by which Vitamin C donates an electron to the iron in the pathogenic mircoorganism, the metal ion is then reduced from its oxidized form to its reduced form, such as Fe3+ or ferric to Fe2+ or ferrous iron. This reduction occurs by superoxide*, which itself is turned to hydrogen peroxide. It is the reduced metal ion that begins the pathogenic elimination, because in the Fenton Reaction, the reduced metal ion reacts with hydrogen peroxide to form hydroxyl radicals, which destroy the offending microorganism in a selective manner.

This does not overdrive the immune system at all, it acts in an entirely independent fashion. It actually works right along side the immune system.

* it should be noted that Superoxide is biologically quite toxic and is deployed naturally by the immune system to kill invading microorganisms.

While it's kind of cute you went out of your way to make a youtube video, just for me, I have to wonder why. Don't want me watching the rest of that lecture?

In any case, all of what you say is, for the most part, technically true. However, the Fenton Reaction occurs in the body rather readily, even without excessive vitamin c supplements, and is, in fact, dangerous to human beings. While you seem to be under the impression that the results of this reaction are 'targeted,' they are, in fact, not. It readily occurs where ever free iron can be found in the body, and in places where iron is 'bound' up, and rather indiscriminately assaults biological material. Their have been studies done that showed increased fenton reaction (Caused by increases in iron present in an organism) have a correlation with tumor presence and size.

Besides the seemingly negative affects of excess fenton reactions (Which I wont claim as absolute truth, because their still working on it), the most common limiting factor of how often it occurs in humans is not vitamin c, but iron. So load up on vitamin c all you want - It wont do anything because their just isn't enough iron floating around in you for it to make a difference, and if there was, there's a good chance it would hurt more then help.

Spoiler

So with that in mind, do you really think wasting stupid amounts of money suppressing such a miracle cure is really the best way of making use of it they could come up with, instead of, oh, I dunno, creating a highly concentrated vitamin C pill combined with a few hundred other useless things to hide the fact that it's C doing all the work, and selling it for 10 bucks a pill? It may not sound like a lot, but it's not a permanent fix, so you have to keep taking it, and it seems to cure damn near anything except genetic defects. It's literally an eternal cash cow. Sniffles? 20 bucks. Meningitis? 100 bucks. AIDs? couple grand. Get them again? Time to buy more pills.

At the risk of sounding mystical; the question answers itself. Specifically, you are talking about an essential nutrient here. Vitamins aren't suppressed, they're just undervalued and very misunderstood by medicine.

Vitamin C is a special case, in that it is not only a macro-nutrient, it also exhibits therapeutic effects when used in appropriate doses. The human body benefits from a relatively large quantity of it in relation to the other Vitamins, and should be considered separately from the other Vitamins with respect to dose.

Vitamin C has a very short half-life in a healthy body, and an extremely short half-life in a sick body. The body will use all the Vitamin C it can get, and can make do with less than ideal amounts.

How you went out of your way to make me a special youtube video, and yet managed to misquote me three times, is beyond me. But ok.

This simply isn't true. Some studies have found that, at least for some people, the typical 'daily dose' of vitamin c is a bit higher then previously expected. But its still faily small - At most, 120mg a day. The only exceptions hav been a studys that found vitamin c doses of 500mg can help with people who have severe problems.

Perhaps more amusingly, megadoses of vitamin c have a particular side effect - It can cause frequent urination and diarrhea. Which has a predicatable result - You eject excess vitamin c rather readily.

https://biology.stackexchange.com/q...mans-not-produce-vitamin-c-like-other-mammals

You really need to read your links. The answer given on that website clearly states that we get all the vitamin c we'll ever need from a typical diet. Which begs the question - If we already get all the vitamin c we can possible use from food, then why dop we get sick at all?

This is not so much an issue of Big Pharma as it is of medicine in general undervaluing the capabilities of Vitamins. It's not a matter of being evil or greedy, it's simply that medicine always regarded Vitamins as something you take to prevent a deficiency disease like scurvy.

Medicine is largely unconcerned with vitamins because there's no evidence we need more then what we get out of a typical diet. Vitamins are all fairly basic materials that are found in pretty much everything is varying quantities. Chances are, if you're not starving, or existing purely on twinkies, you'll get everything you can possible use.

To them, if you don't have scurvy, you don't need any Vitamin C. Biochemical models suggest otherwise, but bear in mind; it took centuries for orthodox medicine to accept that Vitamin C would do anything useful at all (like cure scurvy).

Vitamin C was discovered in the nineteen fucking twenty-seven by Albert Szent-Gy?rgyi, and was discovered to be the thing you needed to stop scurvy by Charles Glen King in nineteen god damn thirty-two. Five years. A century is 100 years. Even if Vitamin C still wasn't accepted as a cure for scurvy today, we'd have to wait another 11 years.

Some physicians would stand by and see their patient die rather than use ascorbic acid because in their finite minds it exists only as a vitamin."

He also claimed he could cure alcoholism with vitamin supplements. Ok.

 

[Mr.Savage]

While it's kind of cute you went out of your way to make a youtube video, just for me, I have to wonder why. Don't want me watching the rest of that lecture?

Hardly, I just know that no one will want to watch a lecture that's almost 2 hours long when they're biased against the material to start with.

In any case, all of what you say is, for the most part, technically true. However, the Fenton Reaction occurs in the body rather readily, even without excessive vitamin c supplements, and is, in fact, dangerous to human beings. While you seem to be under the impression that the results of this reaction are 'targeted,' they are, in fact, not. It readily occurs where ever free iron can be found in the body, and in places where iron is 'bound' up, and rather indiscriminately assaults biological material. Their have been studies done that showed increased fenton reaction (Caused by increases in iron present in an organism) have a correlation with tumor presence and size

.



At 2:41 into the above lecture, clarification is made on the possibility of excess Fenton Reaction, check it out.

Besides the seemingly negative affects of excess fenton reactions (Which I wont claim as absolute truth, because their still working on it), the most common limiting factor of how often it occurs in humans is not vitamin c, but iron. So load up on vitamin c all you want - It wont do anything because their just isn't enough iron floating around in you for it to make a difference, and if there was, there's a good chance it would hurt more then help.

If all of this is true, then Dr. Klenner's 60 Polio patients got well from something other than the IV Vitamin C they received. Why would he leave that out of his journal reports?

Perhaps more amusingly, megadoses of vitamin c have a particular side effect - It can cause frequent urination and diarrhea. Which has a predicatable result - You eject excess vitamin c rather readily.

Interestingly, the threshold at which diarrhoea occurs from oral ingestion is materially increased during illness.

I should also point out that this effect can be lessened if the ascorbic acid is first buffered with an alkaline mineral such as calcium or magnesium oxide. Sodium Bicarbonate is also commonly used.

This effect can be eliminated entirely if one takes the Vitamin C intravenously or ingests a Liposomal Encapsulated variety, which is my preferred method.

You really need to read your links. The answer given on that website clearly states that we get all the vitamin c we'll ever need from a typical diet. Which begs the question - If we already get all the vitamin c we can possible use from food, then why do we get sick at all?

I know the link states we get all we need from diet. I was more interested in this part:

Humans do not produce Vitamin C due to a mutation in the GULO (gulonolactone oxidase) gene, which results in the inability to synthesize the protein. Normal GULO is an enzyme that catalyses the reaction of D-glucuronolactone with oxygen to L-xylo-hex-3-gulonolactone. This then spontaneously forms Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C). However without the GULO enzyme, no vitamin C is produced.

Medicine is largely unconcerned with vitamins because there's no evidence we need more then what we get out of a typical diet. Vitamins are all fairly basic materials that are found in pretty much everything is varying quantities. Chances are, if you're not starving, or existing purely on twinkies, you'll get everything you can possible use.

A "typical" diet in western society isn't exactly bursting with nutrition. Medicine is largely unconcerned with nutrition in general.

Vitamin C was discovered in the nineteen fucking twenty-seven by Albert Szent-Gy?rgyi, and was discovered to be the thing you needed to stop scurvy by Charles Glen King in nineteen god damn thirty-two. Five years. A century is 100 years. Even if Vitamin C still wasn't accepted as a cure for scurvy today, we'd have to wait another 11 years.

I refer to days even earlier when poor lads took to sea and didn't understand why their skin was literally coming apart and rotting off them.

http://www.hektoeninternational.org/documents/sailors_scurvy-final.pdf

He also claimed he could cure alcoholism with vitamin supplements. Ok.

How is that worse than claiming Polio is easily dispatched with Vitamin C infusion?