Cerberus: Hypercompetent or incompetent?

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Megalodon

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evilthecat said:
Also, I think the reason for the sudden change in threat level in ME3 is actually explained in the story, so I'm going to put it in spoiler tags.

The Cerberus troops in ME3 are mostly forcibly indoctrinated civilians, in particular the people who try to take refuge in the Sanctuary facility. The reason Cerberus suddenly have infinite manpower and are attacking the citadel and stuff is because they now have the ability to take large numbers of human colonists and turn them into an unquestioningly loyal super-soldiers. There do seem to be limits, the "quality" of the initial recruit does seem to matter for example (which is why capturing the students at Grissom academy is high priority) and the logs on horizon suggest that not everyone is genetically suitable. But I think it is very adequately explained why they've gone from skulking idiots with an inexplicably good human resources department to a galactic-level threat.
Except they would need more than manpower to be the threat they are in ME3, where do they get their ships, weapons, armour and supplies? Without materiel they can have all the men they like, they won't be able to function as an effective military force.

In six months they go from a black op organisation with three working cells and 150 "operatives" (you could claim the EDI's data in 2 was lies, but the games never present us with evidence that she did), to a Galactic Empire analogue with full blown battlefleets, armies of occupation and sleeper agents in every institution. If they had the resources to acculmulate all this without anyone noticing, then they're already in charge, so most of their actions in ME3 would be unnecessary.

Whichever way you spin in it, there's a massive disconnect in resource levels between the games, and "reaper tech" does not adequately explain it.
 

Adam Jensen_v1legacy

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Just because we always get to investigate Cerberus activities when something goes wrong doesn't mean that they are completely incompetent. Who knows how many things they have going on that are without any issues but we just don't know anything about them.
 

Kingjackl

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They're pretty incompetent. None of their experiments ever actually worked; they tried to justify themselves as being about the ends justifying the means, but the ends were all shit anyway:

Akuze: Feeding soldiers to thresher maws to test the effects of feeding soldiers to thresher maws.
Rachni: They got loose and killed all their guys.
Husks: They got loose and killed all their guys.
Project Lazarus: Brought one guy back from the dead, then let the valuable cure data get blown up by mechs. Also, the guy they brought back eventually got loose and killed all their guys.
Pragia: Lost all test subjects bar one, who was too angry and traumatised to ever actually help them. Also, she got loose and killed all their guys.
Overlord: Hooked an autistic man up to the geth network in the most unnecessarily painful way possible, somehow surprised that they got loose and killed all their guys.
Collector Base: Broken clock is right twice a day. Not that it really mattered, since they couldn't save any of the colonists, ended up indoctrinated studying the technology, and they only succeeded because they let Commander Shepard run everything.

Then they got in bed with the Reapers and actually ended up with a string of successes. It just goes to show that these guys are at their best once they just accept the fact that they're stupidly evil and roll with it.
 

Madman123456

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I do not know what Cerberus was supposed to be. They where just super evil most of the time; luckily there was this one ios tie in game and some of the comics so you could say that they weren't total screw ups but i still don't know what they where supposed to be. Where they bad guys in the first game so it would be shocking when you found out that Cerberus where the "good" guys in me2? I dunno.
We rarely got to see Cerberus actually helping anyone. I'd like to have seen a colony get overrun by something and then cerberus' genetically enhanced supersoldiers help to hold the line and take to brunt of the enemy assault while shepard does something behind the enemy lines. Feros would've been nice for that. You might hate how the supersoldiers are created but now they're here and they're helping to save your life and also blur ethical lines. With the thorian zombies spewing acid, you could have them explain that the knowledge gathered by the experiments on Akuze has been invaluable.

The Illusive Man may want to read a bit of Sun Tsu's "Art of War". "You need the will of the people behind you." Complimenting that he may want to read marshal von Clausewitz' "of war" in which he explains of how the People will plot to destroy you if you fail to get their support.
Normal dude anywhere in the galaxy sees something cerberus related and he's going to report it or throw himself in its way, which could be a problem for logistics.

Being a cold and calculating type i would have guessed tim would have still supported shepard after the end of me2 because shepard might make it his mission to destroy every cerberus cell that does something ethically disagreeable, which might be the death for 95% of cerberus but that would still be better then the reaper invasion since that would kill 100% of cerberus. Also, no humanity to advance.
 

snekadid

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To put it simply, Cerberus was a convenient enemy for the writers. To relate to a favorite quote of mine, Cerberus are like ninja's, there's tons of them and no matter how many you horribly murder, you never feel bad about it, because they're ninj..er... Cerberus.

Honestly, the number of inconsistencies shouldn't surprise anyone, it's one of those things thats gonna happen when you swap out writer with the regularity that you clean out the lint filter in your dryer(Which is every load you lazy bastards!).
 

BrotherRool

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I like to think of Ceberus as barely existing at all, and not in a bad way. Like, I imagine, a lot of terrorist organisations a lot if it is loose collections of similarly motivated people taking credit for those actions as if they were some sort of cohesive organisation.

So some scientists start blowing up colonies on the outer rim and say they're Cerberus, some rich xenophobes with more money than sense give money to the organisation and imagine they're apart of it and in control of it. A few high ranking officials leak serious information and 'undermine' the enemy from within and that's bigged up into this huge intelligence structure.


So that way they can both be incompetent and hyper competent at the same time. Because almost no-one is control and hardly anyone talks to each other they can do huge things but at the same time absolutely bumble around like idiots, and because people aren't on the inside they imagine the thing is a lot more cohesive than it really is.

It's like the way Al-Qaeda can do what they did and yet also have groups of people in the organisation who try to hide a bomb up their arse and have it accidentally detonate (a thing which really happened)

And this fits even better with The Illusive Man, because TIM is a genius but self-blind egotist, like a really evil Julian Assuange. He gives the organisation a face, he's got a lot of personal competence and skill and he can get things done. But he's also much less in control than he can see he is, and he's completely blind to the Reaper indoctrination that's secretly infiltrated and manipulated his organisation since almost inception.

He can get the backers to spend ressurection tech on Shepard, and he's also the only person deluded and obsessed enough with one person that he's willing to spend a world's GDP on making it happen. He likes to thing he controls all his various cells and facilities, but in reality he doesn't. He thinks he's Cerberus and gives them definition, but he's not and Cerberus doesn't really exist as anyone imagines it
 

Ed130 The Vanguard

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Sep 10, 2008
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snekadid said:
To put it simply, Cerberus was a convenient enemy for the writers. To relate to a favorite quote of mine, Cerberus are like ninja's, there's tons of them and no matter how many you horribly murder, you never feel bad about it, because they're ninj..er... Cerberus.

Honestly, the number of inconsistencies shouldn't surprise anyone, it's one of those things thats gonna happen when you swap out writer with the regularity that you clean out the lint filter in your dryer(Which is every load you lazy bastards!).
Pretty much, but hey! At least we got a couple of memes out of their incompetence.

 

lunavixen

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They're not so much incompetent, just willing to disregard the safety of a few people to get the results they want, damning all other species at the same time (the end justifies the means basically, as long as humanity comes out on top).

wulf3n said:
I'm gonna have to stop you right there.

In ME1 they were a black ops branch of the Alliance Military (in the vein of the STG or Spectres) that went rogue. Not a crazy pro-human terrorist organization.
They went rogue after the First Contact War, and they were already classified as a terrorist organisation by the time ME1 occurred (there is a 26 year gap between FCW and ME1). During the FCW they were a mercenary group serving on Shanxi and became Cerberus shortly after.
 

snekadid

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Ed130 said:
snekadid said:
To put it simply, Cerberus was a convenient enemy for the writers. To relate to a favorite quote of mine, Cerberus are like ninja's, there's tons of them and no matter how many you horribly murder, you never feel bad about it, because they're ninj..er... Cerberus.

Honestly, the number of inconsistencies shouldn't surprise anyone, it's one of those things thats gonna happen when you swap out writer with the regularity that you clean out the lint filter in your dryer(Which is every load you lazy bastards!).
Pretty much, but hey! At least we got a couple of memes out of their incompetence.

Pure thumbs up, that comic made me laugh really hard in a library so.... yea thanks and screw you at the same time XD
 

hermes

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Cerberus is hypercompetent... probably too hypercompetent to be believable. In the first game Cerberus are basically a rogue branch of the military with enough resources to be a nuisance but with terrible HR. You encounter them several times but they are not a present danger for anyone other than human politics. Impressive by human standards, but since humanity is an underdog, they would never get the attention of any of the other races.

By the second game, and specially the third one, they are so competent they can attack anyone and mess with anyone with total impunity. The game explains it by saying they got access to Reapers technology, but still. We are talking about something that moved from Shining Path, Hamas or FARC (a powerful, yet local terrorist party) to a clandestine organization capable of infiltrating, invading and controlling the Citadel, Sur'Kesh, Omega and Eden Prime... at the same time.

This is not an issue with the 3rd game alone. In the novels (released before the 2nd game), Cerberus is capable of infiltrating and attacking the Migrant Flotilla, the largest space feel in the known universe.
 

fix-the-spade

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GabeZhul said:
And then, in the third game, when they are apparently a galactic force
Except they're not, they've been taken over by the Reapers who are funneling indoctrinated humans from the destroyed/infiltrated colonies which have artificially expanded their numbers. I'd argue that by that point Cerberus is no longer Cerberus anymore, it's been destroyed from within.

It's kind of the ultimate expression of their total incompetence, with access to seemingly unlimited resources, with full knowledge of the incoming attack, they're still the first thing to fall. Up to that point seemingly every project they created fails hilariously, be it Rachni escaping and running amok or Thresher Maw venom testing victims escaping (and running amok) or advanced AI controlled warships escaping (and running amok).

Their finest achievement is resurrecting Commander Shepard, who carries out a few missions for them, then escapes with the AI warship and the ship's crew and two high ranking officers, who all proceed to run amok.

They manage to murder a fleet admiral, which is impressive, but backfires spectacularly when Shepard hunts them all down and runs amok.

Everything Cerberus do ends with something running amok, in this respect they are very competent.
 

BrotherRool

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fix-the-spade said:
GabeZhul said:
And then, in the third game, when they are apparently a galactic force
Except they're not, they've been taken over by the Reapers who are funneling indoctrinated humans from the destroyed/infiltrated colonies which have artificially expanded their numbers. I'd argue that by that point Cerberus is no longer Cerberus anymore, it's been destroyed from within.

It's kind of the ultimate expression of their total incompetence, with access to seemingly unlimited resources, with full knowledge of the incoming attack, they're still the first thing to fall. Up to that point seemingly every project they created fails hilariously, be it Rachni escaping and running amok or Thresher Maw venom testing victims escaping (and running amok) or advanced AI controlled warships escaping (and running amok).
It is suggested that Cerberus were probably being indoctrinated for as pretty much as long as they've existed. It's part of the cycle that the Reapers raise a facist faction and bend them to their wills and Cerberus have been messing with Reaper tech long before TIM had some installed in his face.

So their inability to deal with the threat and be unable to deal with it, is probably part and parcel with how the organisation had been shaped for a long time
 

Mycroft Holmes

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I thought everyone noticed this?

Also OP forgot the biggest project failure of all. Resurrecting Shepard. It results in a Shepard becoming Cerberus' biggest opponent.

BrotherRool said:
It is suggested that Cerberus were probably being indoctrinated for as pretty much as long as they've existed.
This makes no sense though. TIM makes colossal blunders repeatedly, but everyone still follows him for no reason but that he has tons of money I guess(Must be a hell of a hazard pay for people to keep signing up.) The entirety of Cerberus isn't indoctrinated at all until ME3. Which you can see for one, because none of ME2's crew is indoctrinated; and for two, because there's a whole subplot about him figuring out how to indoctrinate people in ME3. If they were indoctrinated then it was only him. And this does not explain why everyone keeps signing up to die horribly for him.
 

wulf3n

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lunavixen said:
They went rogue after the First Contact War, and they were already classified as a terrorist organisation by the time ME1 occurred (there is a 26 year gap between FCW and ME1). During the FCW they were a mercenary group serving on Shanxi and became Cerberus shortly after.
I don't accept the comics as lore. To me if it's not written in-game, or not written by Drew Karphyshyn, it doesn't count.

Effectively the Cerberus from ME1 is not the Cerberus from the rest of the series.

If someone wants to show me a codec or dialog from ME1 that says they're terrorists I'll be glad to concede. Until then I stand firm in the knowledge that ME1 Cerberus were not Terrorists.
 

KR4U55

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ME1 Cerberus is sketchy at best and TIM was a highly xenofobic ruthless man, and the latter quality is very useful. I'm pretty sure he's a genius and build the entire operation thanks to several contacts across the galaxy, including rich businessmen and politicians who shared his hatred.

In the first ME it is said that humanity is growing way too fast and Cerberus is the proof of that, if it's backed by these powerful figures in the dark.
 

BrotherRool

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Mycroft Holmes said:
Also OP forgot the biggest project failure of all. Resurrecting Shepard. It results in a Shepard becoming Cerberus' biggest opponent.
I love because I think Bioware deliberately wrote this one (unlike most of my Cerberus excuses) and I've got a huge fanwanky character interpretation about it that I like to think was actually in the game (With the difference that the Bioware writers thought that TIM was awesome and that Shepard was worthy of adoration to that level, which I don't agree with)

The thing is The Illusive Man absolutely hero worships Shepard to the point that it blinds him to everything. The Illusive Man craves the respect of Shepard and is so full of himself that he thinks that him and Shepard are basically the same kind of people, who circumstances put on the wrong side of the table. And everything he does is influenced by that and his belief that Shepard actually likes TIM back and would willingly be his ally

So when Shepard dies, of course TIM spends an armies worth of resources bringer her back. And when they suggest changing Shepards brain or putting a chip in her head he refuses because inside he wants to believe that once he talks to Shepard she will see things his way and actually want to work for him.

His crush makes him so delusional he twists everything Shepard does and convinces himself that he would have done it to. Returning the Quarian? A brave gamble, but effective. When he's saying that, it's like he believes that he could have done the same thing.

And he ignores everything Shepard does to spit in his face, because he wants to believe that his hero really likes him, that she's not being adversarial, this is just friendly banter (listen to some of his ME2 dialogue when Shepard insults him)

And then even after Shepard blew up the base and sticks a finger in his face, TIM still can't let it go. Everytime in ME3 when he talks to Shepard the subtext of the conversation basically goes 'I've been kind to you Shepard, I've been patient with you, why can't you respect me?! You need to give me something Shepard, I can't keep on doing this'

And even then he doesn't give up his madness. Should we kill Shepard? No! He might still be 'useful'. He even builds his own Shepard shaped puppet in Kai-Leng and tricks himself into believing that Kai-Leng is half the person Shepard is. He can't let himself see who Kai-Leng really is because he wants to believe that he's like Shepard and that he's got Shepard under his command. And even then it's not enough. When Kai-Leng can't kill Shepard, The Illusive Man isn't annoyed 'Of course you can't kill Shepard. She's Shepard. But one day you will and one day you'll take that place'

And then that last scene at the end of the game is The Illusive Man being stripped of all his illusions. In those last few moments he realises that he's not like Shepard and never was, that Shepard couldn't respect him for what he did and in the end he screwed up.
Mycroft Holmes said:
BrotherRool said:
It is suggested that Cerberus were probably being indoctrinated for as pretty much as long as they've existed.
This makes no sense though. TIM makes colossal blunders repeatedly, but everyone still follows him for no reason but that he has tons of money I guess(Must be a hell of a hazard pay for people to keep signing up.) The entirety of Cerberus isn't indoctrinated at all until ME3. Which you can see for one, because none of ME2's crew is indoctrinated; and for two, because there's a whole subplot about him figuring out how to indoctrinate people in ME3. If they were indoctrinated then it was only him. And this does not explain why everyone keeps signing up to die horribly for him.
I don't mean zombie indoctrination, or even the whole of Cerberus, just The Illusive Man and a couple of rich industrialists and key people. When the Reapers indoctrinate they can even indoctrinate you quickly and turn you into a zombie, or indoctrinate you very slowly over many years and just slightly warp your ideals. They made TIM a little more Xenophobic, a little more hungry for power and independence etc. Even when they're speeding up the indoctrination in ME3 you can see they still not fully mindcontrolling him, they're convincing him that his way is right, that the only way to defeat the Reapers is to use Reaper tech, that he's not indoctrinated and his huge zombie making camp is a necessary evil etc.

As for why people follow him, I think he's fairly charismatic, powerful and with strong ideals. He only needs to know a few racist officials in high up positions. How many horrible incompetent terrorist organisations struggle to get people to blow themselves up for stupid causes? I also think Cerberus seems stronger on the outside than it actually is, because people don't realise how much of Cerberus is really directed or under control, in the same way lots of real world terrorist organisations are basically bunches of lone idiots build bombs in their back garden and then the organisation claiming it was part of their 'master plan' when one goes off
 

Mikeyfell

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First of all: Mass Effect 3 is non-canon garbage.
Taking this "fact" into account I think Cerberus falls very close to hyper-competent. Their scope is very limited but it's lazer focused to accomplish seemingly impossible tasks
Like creating the perfect biotic weapon, bringing someone back to life, genetically engineering Rachnai and the like.

Which mostly backfire, but that's only due to their reach exceeding their grasp (Or however that saying goes)
People think they're evil, but those people are short sighted idiots who think "Evil" just means "Powerful"

I'd say the only real downfall of Cerberus is Shepard. If it weren't for him/her they'd probably be in control of the Council before the start of Mass Effect 2, But they eventually managed to get Shep on their side and or working for them. It all mostly works out.
 

Atmos Duality

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They could be a metaphor for the dangerous of science without constrain...if they weren't so supremely stupid.
Seriously, Cerberus lost control of HOW many projects without ever once learning to create failsafes and contingencies?

Not even their biggest success in bringing a person completely back to life couldn't go without some crazy fucker blowing everything up.

But that's what you get with hack writing.