China riots, island tensions and the UN -updated

[Comando96]

But the Chinese government has a solid grip on the media, so the only reason these riots are happening is because they want it to happen.

Yes, thnak you for saying this, as it should have been in the OP.

China control a lot of the media and the only media they do not control, or modorate in the short term, is on the internet.

To quote the OP:

Chinese newspapers and television have erupted in fury over Japan's purchase, which is seen by both the PRC and ROC as Chinese sovereign territory.

Oh what a shock. China wants its people to riot and they................... sit at home and have some tea? No they riot!

China could have easily not told any of their citizens about this, and only saught to do so, in order to get some bargening power on the table when it comes down to needed to sit dow and discuss the issue, or worse yet, is brought before the UN... of which Japan doesn't have seat on the Security Council, unlike China...

---------------------

China want the island obviously but will likely settle for a compromise deal. However to get this compromise they need to kick up a fuss.

 

[VanTesla]

This makes me pissed for they are rioting because of Chinese Gov't hate propaganda against Japan instead of fighting the Gov't that oppresses their own people and treat the majority like slaves... I don't blame the people for the lies they have spewed at them, but god why don't you use your brain and think for a minute... Yes what Japan did back in WW2 and before was no less than monster like, but that is the past and they gained that land fair and square by war... I know that sounds mean and wrong, but they won it and if lets say it was reversed I would hold the same stance. Also Japan is a better allie in that it works with us in the west and not like China which is just using us to screw us all up the ass... I am talking about the Gov't and not the people or certain corporations by the way just the Gov't of China.

I wish the Chinese people as a whole would stand up for their rights and not become Gov't puppets...

 

[VanTesla]

But the Chinese government has a solid grip on the media, so the only reason these riots are happening is because they want it to happen.

Yes, thnak you for saying this, as it should have been in the OP.

China control a lot of the media and the only media they do not control, or modorate in the short term, is on the internet.

To quote the OP:

Chinese newspapers and television have erupted in fury over Japan's purchase, which is seen by both the PRC and ROC as Chinese sovereign territory.

Oh what a shock. China wants its people to riot and they................... sit at home and have some tea? No they riot!

China could have easily not told any of their citizens about this, and only saught to do so, in order to get some bargening power on the table when it comes down to needed to sit dow and discuss the issue, or worse yet, is brought before the UN... of which Japan doesn't have seat on the Security Council, unlike China...

---------------------

China want the island obviously but will likely settle for a compromise deal. However to get this compromise they need to kick up a fuss.

Also we both know if this was say a peaceful wide protest against the Chinese Gov't it would be shutdown instantly and would have been denied... So the idea the Gov't could not stop the riots even if they did not start the idea is pure crap.

 

[Asmundr]

The misconception that the Japanese navy is weak is quite funny.

In reality their navy is strong enough to sink the Chinese navy in a blink.

The misconception that China is capable of going to war with the US is equally funny, what with the entire Pacific and a Navy that is both better equipped and outnumbers theirs 3 to 1 standing between them and America.

China probably want to use the 'human wave' tactic of overwhelming the enemy with shear numbers

I don't even want to think of the slaughter if the US submarines got involved...

Honestly, I'm no tactician but I don't think it would be a stretch to say we could win a war with China without a single american platoon setting foot on the chinese mainland. All we need do would be to wreck their airfields, naval bases and use our tactical bombers and artillery from sea to take pot shots at choice targets until China eventually gives up.

Again, i'm no tactician and I never went to West point or anything, but to a layman it sounds plausible, no?

I agree. But here is some other information to mull over.

Since most of their power comes form coal powered plants and dams we would just strike those along with their ports and airfields. After that, a naval blockade with more attacks on their industrial facilities, military bases, government buildings, and roadways would pretty much cripple the nation of china.

Granted, China would retaliate and we would see many losses (I wouldn't put it past them to use kamikaze tactics with their aircraft...or anything else for that matter). But most of China's military power either is Soviet Era technology or is a poor imitation of Soviet Era technology. They do have some good planes, tanks, and guns and in vast numbers as well to compliment their population. But without factories, power, and roads those numbers are useless.

The U.S.A.'s military strength lies in its ability move large amounts of troops and military hardware to far away locations fast and accurately. The PRC on the other hand does not have the logistical capability to do this due to the lack of a blue water navy. Remember, having the largest army on Earth means little if you cannot move it anywhere.

As for ground forces, yes we would have to move troops in. Wars are won by boots on the ground. Not planes, ships, or anything else. But troops to occupy the land of the opposing nation. The United State's could wage a war of containment (i.e. a siege), but those become costly. So unless the U.S.A. intends to conquer and suck resources from a defeated China we most likely would not blockade the nation for long. Probably long enough until they would come to the table.

Worst case scenario is that the above mention actions would lead to a nuclear war. While the PRC has aged technology they are sufficient to deliver WMD's to countries such as Japan, Russia, India, and its other neighbors like the Philippines and Korea to name some. This would be unlikely but if the PRC's leaders feel they have no other option then I wouldn't put it past them to try and burn the world. Would be nice to have a missile shield of some sort right now.

And lastly, the above mentioned scenarios and actions are all based on one thing: a United States government and people willing to commit to a war between nations. A war with China, even a blockade would probably last 10 to 20 years with after effects continuing for another 20 years or so (and that's being impractically optimistic with the numbers). The United States of America would need an administration and populace willing to take such actions and keep them up until the threat is neutralized. This is very unlikely due to a variety of reasons.

Spoiler

The most likely scenario's are that the People's Republic of China will continue contesting Southeast Asia, raising tensions in the region. This could cause countries like the Philippines, Taiwan, Japan, and others to explore more aggressive defenses if not outright military build ups to counter the threat. This could either involve the U.S. militarily or politically (negotiations or U.N. petitions, though such actions would be futile). China could also begin exerting economic pressure on smaller Asian powers in an attempt to influence them or have them capitulate to Chinese aid, and thus Chinese political influence. Such actions could also cause a price rise on consumer goods, further increasing strain on the worlds economy.

Another scenario is that this is just China trying rattle the saber and see what happens. If that is the case, we should see this die down in the following months along with tensions in the region. Now while both scenario's sound like some poor story plot this has happened before with other nations. All one has to do is look at our history. The same games have been pulled before.

 

[Ferinus]

Amidst all these walls of texts from people who think reading the Internet = intelligence.

A - Man makes anti-Muslim movie deliberately for backlash
B - It gets no views until some radical sees it
C - He tells his friends, and since Arab countries are MOSTLY guarded closely, the Ayatollah will soon
D - Aha! Opportunity to get stupid mass of people enraged!

Look, Mohammed was a good guy. It is true he was a warrior prophet, but he preached lots of good. Until psycho leaders learn to grow the fuck up, they will continue to force-feed fear into their populous.

tl;dr - Dig half a mile down and build a bunker. Tsar Bomba (largest bomb exploded) could blow Spain clear off the planet.

 

[Amethyst Wind]

What is it with Asian countries and hating each other so much? They're getting to be almost as bad as differing religious sects that will murder each other at the drop of a hat.

They've been at war with each other. A lot.

It's no different than England/France or England/Scotland or England/Ireland. Well it's a little different as the last time the east Asian countries were at war was WW2, so there's still a fair amount of people who lived through that.

It'll fade in time but for the moment it's still contentious.

We arent at risk of war and we dont genuinely hate each other. The Chinese seem to genuinely hate Japan (for not being china it seems). It isnt comparable.

I wasn't saying that you were at risk of war or you full-on hated each other, just that there's bad blood from past conflicts.

Comparing us to them makes it seem like you were.

Why? England haven't been at risk of war with France/Scotland/Ireland for a long time.

Because China and Japan are at risk of war and clearly do hate each other right now. England and all those other countries (though its Great Britain now so its the same country which names certain areas after the countries they used to be) are not at risk of war and dont hate each other. Its a bad comparison and puts the country in a bad light, im just asking that you dont do that.

I live in England, to call Great Britain one country puts all those countries in a bad light. Don't do that.

Also, are you really going to say the entire countries of China and Japan 'clearly do' hate each other right now? I very much doubt you'd find 1000 people in Zhengzhou or Nagoya that have enough dislike for the other country to classify it as hate. I use Zhengzhou and Nagoya because I've lived in both places. Hate is a very strong word.

Might I ask where you're from, Stripes?

 

[Terramax]

Damn this looks pretty damn serious
Hope we don't get another Tiananmen Square Massacre on our hands...

With how easy it is the access information in this day and age... I doubt China would want to repeat that horribly embarrassing mistake.

To me, nothing would pass the Chinese government.

What's this saying?


Nationalism. The ultimate killer of any sensible society. Well done China, well done indeed. This is why no one on Earth is willing to treat you like a grown up.

Amen.

Japan refuses to acknowledge what is had done during WWII. They even refuse to educate their younger generations as to what they did to China during the invasion. Japan also has shrines for the fallen soldiers and "heroes" who massacred and raped China and they are often commemorated, worshipped, etc.

Imagine if Germany had shrines to the "heroes" who helped exterminate the millions of Jews in the extermination camps and to the "heroes" who blitzed London... maybe now you have a small insight as to how delicate things are over here.

That stuff happens everywhere. Heck, even we in the UK celebrate our soldiers as 'heroes'.

Also, in England, I was never educated about Britain's violent rule over countries i.e. India. Never educated about the Falklands.

 

[Asmundr]

Damn this looks pretty damn serious
Hope we don't get another Tiananmen Square Massacre on our hands...

With how easy it is the access information in this day and age... I doubt China would want to repeat that horribly embarrassing mistake.

To me, nothing would pass the Chinese government.

What's this saying?


Nationalism. The ultimate killer of any sensible society. Well done China, well done indeed. This is why no one on Earth is willing to treat you like a grown up.

Amen.

Japan refuses to acknowledge what is had done during WWII. They even refuse to educate their younger generations as to what they did to China during the invasion. Japan also has shrines for the fallen soldiers and "heroes" who massacred and raped China and they are often commemorated, worshipped, etc.

Imagine if Germany had shrines to the "heroes" who helped exterminate the millions of Jews in the extermination camps and to the "heroes" who blitzed London... maybe now you have a small insight as to how delicate things are over here.

That stuff happens everywhere. Heck, even we in the UK celebrate our soldiers as 'heroes'.

Also, in England, I was never educated about Britain's violent rule over countries i.e. India. Never educated about the Falklands.

I second your Amen. And as for the education part I'll have ot agree with you. I live in the states and saw how history was sidelined. One year we studied from before the American Revolution (unbiased to a certain degree to) up until the Cold War and Civil Rights Movement. The following year (same teacher) we were rushed through everything getting essentially the cliff notes and stopped at the civil rights movement for an entire semester.

It scares me how little importance history has nowadays to most people...

 

[el derpenburgo]

I think the extent of the historical enmity is lost upon us as Westerners. From what I see in this thread people seem to think this is all such a trivial thing gone out of hand, but symbolically I think it's more. The Chinese public are probably being manipulated - that kinda seems true - but I don't think this could've panned out any differently short of Japan just giving away those islands. The middle-aged were probably brought up by parents who suffered the worst of the occupation and it's going to take a lot more than international condemnation to get rid of such ingrained hostility. The younger generations will forget the crimes of the past and we can all move on; a hundred years ago, the British public may have responded the same way to a French territorial dispute. Who knew that the political apathy of today's generation would somehow be a good thing?

 

[A_Parked_Car]

While I could be wrong with this, since your post seems very well informed, I feel like you've left out a pretty major factor: the US Air Force. Even if the USN's subs, cruisers, etc. can't get in close, their and the USAF's planes could easily do some damage, at least as a deterrent to Chinese forces. After all, America's jets are, as a rule, at least a generation more advanced than China's, and even taking SAM defense into consideration US planes would probably be able to get in, hurt the enemy, and get out with minimal or no casualties. US planes are even stationed in Japan, so they're already pretty much right there.

Also, ballistic and cruise missiles could be used as well, though that's much less important than the issue of aircraft.

If any of this is blatantly wrong, feel free to correct me, I have a casual interest in military tactics but I'm just a layman .

I thank you for this well written response haha. I usually avoid posting on any topics discussing the military or historical stuff, since I don't have any desire to get into an argument with a complete toss-pot. However, it seems like you are prepared for a level-headed discussion. =D

That is true. Now, I will say right now that I have no idea what the ranges of American carrier-borne aircraft are. However, since the Chinese have built this system of anti-missile vehicles, it is safe to assume that they have taken carrier-aircraft range into account. I'm thinking that the carriers wouldn't be able to get into range to actually launch their aircraft, since the carrier aircraft are what constitute naval striking power these days.

Obviously, there is a huge ongoing debate about whether carriers have gone the way of the battleship. People that are of the new school rationalize their argument by saying, "Why build a ship that launches a plane that launches a missile, when you can just build a ship that launches a missile?"

Anyway, the US certainly have aircraft that can strike Chinese targets from pretty much anywhere. They also have plenty of cruise missiles and the like to fire. Now again, I'm not sure what the range of a lot of those missiles are, since I know quite a few varieties are launched from...the navy once again. XD Now, lets say that the US has tons of stuff that can actually hit Chinese targets. There is no way to know how effective it that would be.

We are also not sure how effective the Chinese anti-satellite missile system is. They demonstrated in 2009 that they had the technology when they shot down one of their own weather satellites. Obviously, if it is actually in place in a large scale they could essentially "blind" the USN by knocking out their GPS satellites. Conversely, for all we know their missile program was some huge failure that was shutdown. We simply do not know haha.

Of course a lot of this could be redundant. Since the Chinese import almost all their oil through the Suez Canal and Indian Ocean. The British (and by extension, the US) have a massive naval base on a tiny island just south of India. They could just use it to cut China's oil supply and China wouldn't be able to do a thing about it. The long-term goal of the PLAN is to create a blue-water navy that is strong enough to defend that trade route, but that is all it is: A long-term plan.

Well, I actually have to run off to class now. I don't have time to proof this or anything, so there might mistakes and such. That and this is really all speculation that is based on all the knowledge that the public can get their hands on. Since national-security and such is super important for all countries, there isn't a whole lot we can know for sure.

All I can say is. If the US/Japan go to war with China over this, God help us. There wouldn't be a war on this scale since WWII. While it wouldn't reach that same scale of intensity(at least I certainly hope so), it would not be a fun proposition.

 

[Stripes]

Eh, Japan and China are token enemies. South Korea and North Korea are the same. England and France are the same. America and... the entire middle east.

I'm routing for Japan... despite the fact they have no chance if this does escalate. Sadly China is powerful beyond all recognition, so what chance does anyone have after the waves of Chinese genocide blacken the west?

England and France are not enemies, their relationship is certainly nothing like North and South Korea.

Woah woah, England and France are FAMOUS historical enemies, this is pretty much the only century we haven't been spilling each others guts out on a field in Belgium.

The previous century also, im just saying we arent real enemies towards each other anymore and its misguided to compare us to the Koreas' relationship.

 

[Tadd]

snip

You live in Shangai? Can you tell me what it's like living in China? How does the CPC treat freedom of speech?

This is a tricky question to approach... As I have lived in Shanghai for only 6 years, there are undoubtedly others who will claim this to "not [be] the real China experience"... the big cities, Shanghai and Beijing are completely different to other cities and the country side.

Freedom of speech is strange here. If I stand in the middle of People's Square (like London's Piccadilly Circus), waving a Japanese flag shouting "China get out of Diaoyu islands" I will be promptly beaten to a mushy pulp... by the general public. The police are nowhere near as rough as the American ones (they also don't carry gun or tazers).

Western-folk often mock/criticise/pity China for it's internet and aptly-named "Great-Firewall-of-China"... Facebook/Twitter/Imdb/Youtube all blocked. China offers her own Chinese equivalents for these and they are monitored by the government; however, "netizens" (as they have been named) regularly post pictures, blogs, reports, videos of corrupt officials/covered-up and twisted news...etc.

Ironically, I have never felt as free as I do, on the internet over here, compared to when I lived in UK... games, music, movies, tv shows... they have websites completely dedicated to streaming and downloading them, all for free (and particularly includes new releases, sometimes it's the only way I can play many games, such as Skyrim and Dead Island).

Shanghai is also the safest city I have ever lived in. Despite the rioting happening across China, I haven't seen or heard of anything happening in Shanghai.

In Shanghai, you are allowed to "apply" to protest, but that's as much as I know. Whatever you do, just make sure it is nothing bad about the current Chairman. Apparently, if you say stuff like "Hu Jin Tao is a dick", then they have ways to track you down and de........

 

[Stripes]

What is it with Asian countries and hating each other so much? They're getting to be almost as bad as differing religious sects that will murder each other at the drop of a hat.

They've been at war with each other. A lot.

It's no different than England/France or England/Scotland or England/Ireland. Well it's a little different as the last time the east Asian countries were at war was WW2, so there's still a fair amount of people who lived through that.

It'll fade in time but for the moment it's still contentious.

We arent at risk of war and we dont genuinely hate each other. The Chinese seem to genuinely hate Japan (for not being china it seems). It isnt comparable.

I wasn't saying that you were at risk of war or you full-on hated each other, just that there's bad blood from past conflicts.

Comparing us to them makes it seem like you were.

Why? England haven't been at risk of war with France/Scotland/Ireland for a long time.

Because China and Japan are at risk of war and clearly do hate each other right now. England and all those other countries (though its Great Britain now so its the same country which names certain areas after the countries they used to be) are not at risk of war and dont hate each other. Its a bad comparison and puts the country in a bad light, im just asking that you dont do that.

I live in England, to call Great Britain one country puts all those countries in a bad light. Don't do that.

Also, are you really going to say the entire countries of China and Japan 'clearly do' hate each other right now? I very much doubt you'd find 1000 people in Zhengzhou or Nagoya that have enough dislike for the other country to classify it as hate. I use Zhengzhou and Nagoya because I've lived in both places. Hate is a very strong word.

Might I ask where you're from, Stripes?

Great Britain, or as you would call it England. York to be exact. We are one country, dont slag off the others like that and if you werent doing that dont slag off your own. These countries are at each others necks, so yeah im gonna say they sure as hell hate each other.

 

[Tadd]

Japan refuses to acknowledge what is had done during WWII. They even refuse to educate their younger generations as to what they did to China during the invasion. Japan also has shrines for the fallen soldiers and "heroes" who massacred and raped China and they are often commemorated, worshipped, etc.

Imagine if Germany had shrines to the "heroes" who helped exterminate the millions of Jews in the extermination camps and to the "heroes" who blitzed London... maybe now you have a small insight as to how delicate things are over here.

That stuff happens everywhere. Heck, even we in the UK celebrate our soldiers as 'heroes'.

Also, in England, I was never educated about Britain's violent rule over countries i.e. India. Never educated about the Falklands.

I completely agree with your points here, I'm just offering the view from my experiences over here. Hailing from England myself, I was also unaware of many things in regards to the British Empire and the crap we had done in history.

In regards to the hero shrines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasukuni_Shrine#Controversy
It seems that Japan has acknowledged that "Ministry officials agreed that all "are eligible" for enshrinement according to the extant rules; the officials then decided to withhold information relating to the criminals' enshrinement in order to avoid controversy."

This story is well known to Chinese: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Contest_To_Cut_Down_100_People.jpg
Some Japanese soldiers became infamous for this; lining-up Chinese PoWs and having a competition to see who can behead the most with a single cut. Apparently, one such "hero" reached as much as 100. Such soldiers are part of the Yasukuni Shrine. This was the point I was trying to make in my previous post.

 

[Terramax]

I completely agree with your points here, I'm just offering the view from my experiences over here.

Yeah, sorry, didn't mean to sound patronising at all. It's just it completely blows my mind that people can't let go over stuff like that.

Seriously, if I found out that the Chinese massacred members of my family 50-100 years ago, would I go on an anti-China tirade? No, of course not. Because I'm mature enough to understand that the actions of a few, many years, does not reflect the thoughts, feelings, and actions of everyone in a whole freakin' country. Why does anyone thing like that?

Seeing as you're over there at the moment, are you able to vouch as to whether the majority of Chinese hold such anti-Japanese resentment, or is it a small minority of the populous?

 

[Tadd]

Seriously, if I found out that the Chinese massacred members of my family 50-100 years ago, would I go on an anti-China tirade? No, of course not. Because I'm mature enough to understand that the actions of a few, many years, does not reflect the thoughts, feelings, and actions of everyone in a whole freakin' country. Why does anyone thing like that?

Seeing as you're over there at the moment, are you able to vouch as to whether the majority of Chinese hold such anti-Japanese resentment, or is it a small minority of the populous?

The Chinese, in general, really do hold grudges... on occasion when I mention I am British, there will be the odd mention about Hong-Kong with an accusing nudge, wink and grin. Like you, I don't understand it and I'm mature enough to understand its the past.

A lot of the anti-Japanese resentment is found in the less-developed areas of China, however, these days even around Shanghai, people tend to scoff at any mention of Japan or anything Japanese. My colleagues tend to roll their eyes, over this whole mater and just want it over with. Although, in saying that, my brother works for a Japanese pharmaceutical (sp?) company, they were all given a week off, just-in-case things turned sour in these parts.

 

[Squilookle]

Looks like China is now officially complaining to the UN about Japan's possession of the islands.

China's going all out on it now. I can't see how, at this point, it would be possible for China to back down without a loss of 'face'.

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/world/japan-stole-our-islands-china-tells-un/story-e6frfkui-1226483374770

 

[RicoGrey]

Seriously, if I found out that the Chinese massacred members of my family 50-100 years ago, would I go on an anti-China tirade? No, of course not. Because I'm mature enough to understand that the actions of a few, many years, does not reflect the thoughts, feelings, and actions of everyone in a whole freakin' country. Why does anyone thing like that?

Seeing as you're over there at the moment, are you able to vouch as to whether the majority of Chinese hold such anti-Japanese resentment, or is it a small minority of the populous?

The Chinese, in general, really do hold grudges... on occasion when I mention I am British, there will be the odd mention about Hong-Kong with an accusing nudge, wink and grin. Like you, I don't understand it and I'm mature enough to understand its the past.

A lot of the anti-Japanese resentment is found in the less-developed areas of China

Same with America, less-developed areas are the most likely to be anti-well I was going to say muslim, but anti-everything, hope people come to understand this is mostly about a lack of experience/education issue with people.

 

[exessmirror]

Seriously, if I found out that the Chinese massacred members of my family 50-100 years ago, would I go on an anti-China tirade? No, of course not. Because I'm mature enough to understand that the actions of a few, many years, does not reflect the thoughts, feelings, and actions of everyone in a whole freakin' country. Why does anyone thing like that?

Seeing as you're over there at the moment, are you able to vouch as to whether the majority of Chinese hold such anti-Japanese resentment, or is it a small minority of the populous?

The Chinese, in general, really do hold grudges... on occasion when I mention I am British, there will be the odd mention about Hong-Kong with an accusing nudge, wink and grin. Like you, I don't understand it and I'm mature enough to understand its the past.

A lot of the anti-Japanese resentment is found in the less-developed areas of China, however, these days even around Shanghai, people tend to scoff at any mention of Japan or anything Japanese. My colleagues tend to roll their eyes, over this whole mater and just want it over with. Although, in saying that, my brother works for a Japanese pharmaceutical (sp?) company, they were all given a week off, just-in-case things turned sour in these parts.

those island are japans, they used to be owned by the Chinese but they where annexed into japan. i hope someone veto's against any proposition from china to take the islands for the Chinese