Chromosomal Confusion

[Alorxico]

In my Legal Issues class, the professor brought to our attention a case from several years ago in which a news-paper printed a story that the "first female president" of some college student organization was in fact a male who had had a sex change several years before. The person in question sued for violation of privacy and won.

Now, normally newspapers can claim a story is "news-worthy" and that normally gets them off the hook in such cases, but not here. When the professor asked the class should the paper have printed the story, one of the girls in the back said "No, because it's no body's business if she was a guy before or not. She's the first female president and that is all that matters." A young man then raised his hand and said "But, she's not the first female president, she had a sex-change."

The hate-filled murmur that arose was stunning. I added "He has a point. If you take this woman's blood and run a genetics test on it, she will have an X and a Y chromosome. How she sees herself, how she wants to be treated or seen by others is up to her, but Science says she is a male."

That only made things worse and the professor had to change the subject.

After class I started thinking; the Gay-Lesbian-Bi movement has made the argument that people should not be judged by their sexuality, a view I support. Who you have sex with or how you see yourself is your own business and you should not be discriminated against because of it. HOWEVER, despite what you think about yourself or what you DO to yourself, in 2000 years when they dig up your bones and test your DNA you will be labeled as a male or a female.

Personally, I believe we should reserve the words "male" and "female" for the field of science to describe the biological, the genetic coding, of an individual, in much the same way as we use "marsupial" or "reptile" to describe a certain collection of animals. And while saying that an animal is "feline" does conjure to mind a set of possible attitudes and traits, the animal in question is just as likely to be friendly and want to cuddle as it is to be fierce and want to eat your face; so, too, should "male" and "female", in my mind.

What are your thought?

EDIT: Reading through the responses, I noticed two things. First, that half of those who responded stated that Gender and Sex are not the same thing. Second, that about a forth stated there are more than XX and XY when it comes to DNA. Congratulations, you all get cookies. Also, I would like to point out that I NEVER said a person should be IDENTIFIED as a male or female by their DNA. Being described and being identified or labeled are two different things.

Yes, it is not a cut-and-dry issues, there are MANY exceptions out there and Science doesn't have all the answers; heck, last I checked, Science still wasn't certain if the Panda was a bear or a cat, but they were going to call it a bear until they knew for certain.

But, if we HAVE to have ways of describing what we see and interact with in this world (and it is human nature to do so, even if they are abstract), than I believe we should reserve the words "male" and "female" for the realm of science and to only describe a certain set of chromosomes.

One person pointed out that unless you go to the doctor and ask for a DNA test, you will NEVER know what your DNA is. Kudos to you, you get cookies. Unless you ask someone to test your DNA, you don't KNOW what your chromosomes are, which is WHY the words "male" and "female" should be reserved for that field of study.

In closing; a person's sex and a person's gender are two different things, and the words used to describe ONE should not be used to describe the other. Now, how we describe and determine GENDER is an argument I will let others handle.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I would tend to agree.

However, at current, there's alot of baggage about people's genders. Until there's no distinction between male and female, people will worry about labels. We've not reached the point where it's a non-issue.

Also, intersex people are left out in the cold.

 

[Veloxe]

Ignoring the issue of if the news paper should or shouldn't have printed the story it is an interesting thought. On one hand I do agree that scientifically 'she' is actually a 'he'. Ya they can choose to alter their own body and habits as they wish but when you get down to it they are still just a modified man (or woman if we go the other way). I think for medical purposes it should obviously be on record or something that, "Yes, this person is actually a male." but in terms of every day life if they choose to be labelled as something they technically aren't I don't really care. It's not really my place to tell them what they can and can't call themselves.

But the idea of being the "first female president" does bring up a conundrum in my belief on the subject. Since yes, they really aren't the first female to obtain that position since they are still a male on a base level. I mean, I could see it being rather important if they ran off of a campaign like "I'm a woman, this place needs a woman's touch, vote for me sisters." because that almost seems disingenuous to me. Especially since opinions are still formed subconsciously about people based on sex I would almost be willing to say that she should have told people that she was once a man. But in the end it is their choice so they really shouldn't be forced to tell and explain it to anyone who asks.

Damn you free will, making shit complicated again.

 

[lovestomooch]

The published article denied her of the right to be a female as it highlighted her past gender and so allowed for her current status as a female to be questioned, therefore they were wrong to print it. The thing to remember here is that although she becomes the "first female president", the fact that she is female here is immaterial as we (as civilised human beings) recognise that males and females are equal. Using this equality as a base, anyone who then brings to the fore the fact that she is used to be male is highlighting this fact not in the interest of societal well-being (i.e. a man or woman would be better at the job), but in the interest of generating discussion at the expense of someone else's quality of life and right to be seen as how they wish.

 

[Slippers]

You are male if you have an XY(ZZ) chromosome.
You are female if you have an XX(ZW) chromosome.

I couldn't care less how you want to be perceived.

 

[Throwitawaynow]

Makes me wonder if G W Bush wore black face and claimed to be the first black president, and was serious about it. Would it be the same thing, and would the same people that defended the person in topic defend him? I'm trying to think of more to add but drawing a blank, probably elaborate further later.

 

[DJDarque]

I could be wrong (I probably am), but I think this woman's case is one where the difference between sex and gender is very important. Based on her genes and what she was born with, her sex is technically male. However, her gender, which is a social and psychological identification, would be female. I am confused as to how it should be dealt with, but the paper had no business printing that story.

Please, correct me if I am wrong. The whole sex/gender difference confuses me in the case of transgendered people.

 

[nekoali]

Basing a classification on male or female on one single test is very flawed in the first place. It is also incorrect. Testing the chromosomes of someone can only tell you what the genetic makeup of someone is. Being male, female or other is a lot more complex than that single thing.

First of all, there are a variety of intersex people that have the chromosomes of one sex, yet naturally developing along the lines of the other sex. Or in other words, they have say, XY chromosomes, yet they grow up physically in appearances female, or vice versa. If you don't give them genetic testing, you wouldn't know. And there are those who are born with indeterminate gene structure, such as X0 or XXY. Clearly these people don't fit into the supposed 'only male or female' roles. So genetic testing from the first part is flawed and can be wrong.

Secondly, medical science and physiology have confirmed that there are people who are indeed born to the wrong gender. They may have the chromosomes of one sex, yet examinations and MRIs show that their brain structure is very similar, almost identical to the other sex. So it is a physical truth that some people, their bodies say one thing, but their brains say something else. The usual and accepted treatment of such trans sexual people is to perform corrective surgery to make their bodies conform to what their minds say, and thereby relieve the dysphoria they suffer because of it. Many attempts have been made to do the opposite... make the brain conform to the body. And in fact, that is what society still expects most of the time... these cases usually lead to severe depression, mental health issues and not to uncommonly, suicide attempts.

So that is physically and mentally.. what about socially? It gets a bit stickier there, because there are still a lot of people who think biology is the sole determining factor when it comes to sex and gender. However... those people are wrong. From both the personal experience, and scientific proof it shows that this is NOT that case. And in fact, the thought that it is is a fairly recent (for human history) thought. Many ancient societies accepted and understood that there are more genders in the world than male and female, and what is on the outside is not necessarily what is on the inside. Now such people have carried different roles in life... from the Native American Two Spirits who are often thought to be touched or blessed by the Spirits, to the various different levels of gender in India, most of which were considered lesser than men.

Cultural ideas of gender and sex roles are changing, as they always do. The existence of trans sexual people and their living in the correct gender are slowly becoming more accepted, and more evidence is being found to help people transition younger in life. To not suffer a lot of the stigma that my generation did. There are still hold outs of course that insist if you were born physically male you will remain male no matter what, but those are old ways of thinking that are slowly going away. There are some people who still think that non-whites, non-males or non-whatever-I-am are inferior... but that's largely due to misinformation and bigotry. Life changes, people change, ideas change... Many people refused to believe that the Earth circled the sun or the world wasn't flat, even many years after it was proved to not be true. Some ideas just take a while to be accepted.

So yes, someone who has a sex change operation, more accurately described as sex reassignment or gender reassignment, is indeed a member of the gender they are transitioning into. In fact, in some ways they always were. But like some people are born with physical birth defects that can be corrected with surgery, so were trans sexual people. Yes, genetically they may (or may not, depending) show up as having the genes of their old physical sex.. but that's only one tiny part of what makes a man a man or a woman a woman. And they should be treated as their proper gender.

 

[Lieju]

You know, the sex isn't as clear as that.

There are quite a lot of intersex-conditions, and people who don't fall into those clean-cut categories.
And recent studies have shown that there are other genes that influence the sex.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

 

[similar.squirrel]

Ugh. Bioethics are headache-inducing. I think it's rude to bring attention to somebody's genotype. That is their business alone, unless it's been scrambled by a retrovirus or they wish to have kids.
In this case, the psyche and the phenotype make her a woman. Two against one.

 

[Emurlahn]

So basically all you guys are saying that people who have XXY or XXX (and yes, this happens) are left out in the cold and not allowed to have a gender?

There is a reason that the intersex-movement is growing, and that is the fact that gender is something we form inside ourself, it's a way of seeing ourselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer
Read through this, though it might not be very useful, it certainly will help, and also this video ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jm0Sy6gUe0w ) should give some better understanding.

 

[JackEmpty]

It's been said in previous posts, but let's make a simple and quick distinction.

XX-female and XY-male are only two of a NUMBER of different chromosomal sexual classes. There are a few others that occur with less frequency, so they have no label, aside from the collective "intersex". But the point is that chromosomal sex isn't a binary.


The second point is that chromosomal sex is a completely separate thing from gender identity. And gender identity isn't determined by chromosomes. But people blur the two. That's the issue that this articles has. The question is not "is she a man or a woman"? because that lumps the two together. The question, or rather question*s*, plural, are these: Is she chromosomally XX-female or XY-male? (She is XY-male.) Is her gender identity a man or a woman? (Her gender identity is a woman. Or rather, she is a woman.)

Gender identity != chromosomal sex.

"she is a woman" != "she is chromosomally XX-female".

I'm not sure of the conventions, but when talking about chromomal sex, I use male and female. When talking about gender identity I use man or woman. Also, the pronoun refers to gender identity.

So she is a male woman.

 

[Lucie]

I refer you to this thread [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.247694-Ask-a-Transexual-Transgender-Two-Groups]. It has some very interesting discussions.
I'm actually torn between two viewpoints, if it's not your DNA, your XX/XY chromosomes that make you female/male, what does? On the other hand, is any of my business to declare someone female/male when they perceive themselves as the other?

 

[Lieju]

You are male if you have an XY(ZZ) chromosome.
You are female if you have an XX(ZW) chromosome.

I couldn't care less how you want to be perceived.

So even if someone developes into a male, if he has the XX-chromosomes, you don't care whether he looks male, has male genitalia, and looks totally normal male, he is a woman.

And same for XY-females?
http://priory.com/med/xx.htm

 

[funguy2121]

snip

OP, the worst-treated people in the world are the LGBT. If they want to be referred to by whatever sex they've transitioned to, especially if they've put in the effort, then call a transgendered person what they wish to be called.

 

[thenumberthirteen]

I think the problem is linguistic really. before the last 50 years this has never been an issue really. So therefore saying someone is male or female is not enough in certain situations.