Civ 5: Traitoruous Bastards

[Paragon Fury]

So, I just tried winning Diplomatic victory in Civ 5 (the only kind I don't have) and even though I though I had done it perfectly, I still lost the election and didn't get the victory. I went full Patronage, had almost all of the City-States as my friends, only went to war once in self-defense; and then only 'till I hadn't destroyed their army then I made peace with them. Everyone called me "Friendly" or was nice to me.

So when I build the UN and the vote comes up with only 3 of 18 votes for me (6 players, 12 city-states), I'm understandably pissed. And the winner was the warmonger who I had fought and could've destroyed the one time I went into war and had been bullying everyone else the whole time.

Putting aside the fact that I should win for building the UN regardless if I win the election or not, since I do bring world peace/order - why would the AI choose to elect a warmonger over the person who has traded, protected and otherwise been a nice guy to them?

 

[Montezuma's Lawyer]

Because the AI in civ is notoriously bad?

 

[Ryotknife]

AI are dicks in that game.

Ive had the entire world denounce or declare war against me when one of the AIs launched an attack and i repelled and took over one of his cities.

Even better, a friend of mine had India ask him to declare war against the Ottomons to help India out. Next turn, India and a bunch of other countries declared war against my friend for attacking the AI that was at war with India.

 

[Zaik]

I'd be surprised if any player has ever actually won a diplomatic victory in Civ 5 at all.

The AI is fourth wall breakingly programmed to go out of it's way to not allow the player to complete victory conditions, and their mundane actions seem to be mostly decided by dice rolls rather than any positive or negative behavior on your part. I think the worst you can get out of being hostile with someone is they will spam denounce you, which will do nothing but lower what the other nations think of you, which worst case will lead to them spam denouncing you.

 

[scotth266]

Reminds me of a Civ 4 game I had. I was friends with all my neighbors except Stalin, who occupied my north border. Luckily I had primitive gunpowder units and he was still in the stone age... but that didn't stop him from declaring war on me.

I quickly steamrolled two of his cities, but after that I got stuck in a war of attrition: he scored some incredibly bullshit victories time and time again. Eventually I just said "fuck it", took the two cities, and offered peace.

Then I built up a war machine over the next ten turns.

When the treaty was over, I declared war on Stalin... only to find that two of my neighbors to the south sided with him. It was a disaster.

 

[Paragon Fury]

So aside from the fact that you should win Diplomatic Victory just for building the UN (its pretty much the same as a Cultural Victory), how does one go about ensuring a Diplomatic victory in Civ 5?

 

[Exterminas]

So aside from the fact that you should win Diplomatic Victory just for building the UN (its pretty much the same as a Cultural Victory), how does one go about ensuring a Diplomatic victory in Civ 5?

Buying enough City States to win. "Almost" doesn't cut it. You can't count on the AI to vote for you.

Diplomacy is actually the fastest way to win, aside from Domination.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

So, I just tried winning Diplomatic victory in Civ 5 (the only kind I don't have) and even though I though I had done it perfectly, I still lost the election and didn't get the victory. I went full Patronage, had almost all of the City-States as my friends, only went to war once in self-defense; and then only 'till I hadn't destroyed their army then I made peace with them. Everyone called me "Friendly" or was nice to me.

So when I build the UN and the vote comes up with only 3 of 18 votes for me (6 players, 12 city-states), I'm understandably pissed. And the winner was the warmonger who I had fought and could've destroyed the one time I went into war and had been bullying everyone else the whole time.

Putting aside the fact that I should win for building the UN regardless if I win the election or not, since I do bring world peace/order - why would the AI choose to elect a warmonger over the person who has traded, protected and otherwise been a nice guy to them?

Sounds like they were scared of him.

One thing that is important to understand about the AI in Civ V, aside from the fact it cheats and doesn't know how to use units very well, is that it plays much like a human opponent in multiplayer. Not in that it's wildly unpredictable or shows human cunning, but in that it values winning the game above all things. That means if you expect the results of your game to reflect actual political dynamics, you're going to be consistently disappointed. The AI will ruthlessly cut your throat if it thinks you're too much of a front runner, whether he's Ghandi or Ghengis Khan. If they were all well disposed towards you, it probably means they thought you were a weak contestant and no real threat.

The faction that won probably bullied/bribed his way to victory.

I've won a Diplomatic victory, by the way. It wasn't tough. But I was the front runner in many other respects as well.

 

[Chimpzy_v1legacy]

I'd be surprised if any player has ever actually won a diplomatic victory in Civ 5 at all.

I once did it. But barely.

I it weird that I read Traitorous Bastards as Traitorous Beards?

 

[ShinobiJedi42]

The diplomacy is Civ 5 is horrible. I don't even try to win diplomatic victories for that very reason. When I first started playing, I would be increidibly nice to every single civ in every game. But no matter how nice I am to them, they always end up hating me for some stupid reason. But, I have never really been impressed with the AI diplomacy in any Civ game. I have always found it annoying, which is why I only play domination anymore. I'm hoping the addition of the revamped espionage system in Gods and Kinds will make things more interesting in terms of diplomacy.

 

[Irridium]

Yeah, had the same problem as you. Diplomacy in Civ V is just horrid. All it really is is a system for the AI to denounce you.

Hopefully the Gods and Kings expansion add some much needed depth to it.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

But no matter how nice I am to them, they always end up hating me for some stupid reason.

They hate you because you're winning. Imagine you're playing Risk with several friends. Tom is clearly winning. Are you going to stop Tom? Or let Tom coast to an easy win because he's being nice?

Don't get me wrong, it annoys me too. I'd rather have a "realistic" AI that behaved like an actual nation than an AI that behaved like a jealous competitor, but I do understand WHY the AI works like it does. It's trying to beat you.

 

[cahtush]

The key is to be allied to as many city states as possible, as every faction will vote for itself and the CS will vote for whoever it is allied to.

 

[guitarsniper]

Now this is why I tend to try for cultural or scientific victory.

 

[Gevas]

Diplomatic victory isn't bad, you're just not doing it right: merchant wonders -> great merchants, buy off 50%+ city-states = instant UN victory.

 

[Towels]

So aside from the fact that you should win Diplomatic Victory just for building the UN (its pretty much the same as a Cultural Victory), how does one go about ensuring a Diplomatic victory in Civ 5?

Buying enough City States to win. "Almost" doesn't cut it. You can't count on the AI to vote for you.

Diplomacy is actually the fastest way to win, aside from Domination.

I totally agree. Why should the AI Civs vote for you? They're also trying to win the game. I consider that a big improvement in the AI though. I believe that UN Votes are based off of population size. So if there's a single Autocrat or Premier out there with an empire spanning half the globe, you're puny city-state patronage matters little. Of course, you could BE that goddess-queen with the hemisphere-sized people's republic and win diplomatically. (And that's how I won the game with China.)

I feel that Science Victories are actually the hardest way to win. I've won domination with Rome, diplomatic with China and cultural with France, but someone always gets one of those victories before I can get the Science victory. (I keep trying America, and it keeps turning into FireFly with China taking over the world.)

 

[The Artificially Prolonged]

In civ V the AI always votes for itself unless you liberated their capital from another player. City states will abstain unless they are allied to a civ. In that case they vote for the civ that has the highest influence on them. You say you had city states as friends, do you mean they where in 'friends' status with you or 'allied' status? Because if it's just friendly status they won't vote for you. But that said the AI is still a bit wonky. I don't mind the ai being friends with the me and then backstabbing me out of the blue, hell I've done that to the AI a few too many times and adds to the immersion in my opinion. Although it is a problem when the same Civ does that 5 times in the same game despite getting its arse handed to it the previous four times.

I do find the diplomatic victory in Civ V a bit weak as it really just amounts to who ever can raise the money to buy off all the city state votes and also the UN votes don't include 'non nuclear pacts' or other treaties that made UN diplomacy a bit more fun than just winning the game. That said they weren't much better in Civ IV either, I used to just conquer enough of the map so my population gave me a majority vote which meant no matter how anyone else voted I would win regardless.

 

[Paragon Fury]

Well, I finally have a Diplomacy win and have completed all the kinds of victories in Civ V.

Mainly thanks to the Gods and Kings expansion, which made the diplomacy victory, and the actual act of diplomacy significantly less retarded, and made it easier to get the City-States on my side.