"Civil War" Vs "Dawn of Justice" - Which will do it better?

[Callate]

Marvel has the momentum; Dawn of Justice is the one that has something to prove. Honestly, I hope that both are worth seeing. But Civil War going to dark places is both appropriate to the darker themes and betrayal that were introduced in Winter Soldier yet feels new because of the more playful tone that so many Marvel movies have incorporated. Conversely, DoJ being grim and serious after Man of Steel feels a little "broken record" at this point, particularly given Snyder's over-all oeuvre.

 

[twistedmic]

I don't think it is really fair to try a direct comparison of the DC movies and the Marvel movies seeing as they are not trying to make the same kind of movies. DC sticks with the more serious (for the most part) and dramatic movies while Marvel tends to go with the more light-hearted action/popcorn type of movie.
Comparing the two would be like asking which is a better crime/cop movie. 'The Departed' or 'The Other Guys'?
Or which is the better Western- 'Unforgiven' or 'Maverick'?
It's the cinematic equivalent of apples and oranges.

 

[JimB]

Wow, that is the stupidest sentence I have ever seen in my life.

Okay. Thank you for sharing that extremely constructive and well-argued criticism, I guess.

Warner Bros. is not going as far as stop making movies/TV shows/etc. in favor of making solely Superman-themed slot machines or anything.

I did not compare Warner Bros. to Konami. I compared DC to Konami. Please attempt to limit your retorts to things I have actually said.

I'm not even a big fan of most DC characters, but they've done a pretty solid job with their animated series/movies. As a general rule, I'll take the DC animateds over the Marvel any day. I don't think Konami could manage that.

I am a fan of DC characters, which is why Nu52 (and by extension, the direction the DCCU seems to be going in) bothers me. I see parallels in the way eighty years of history and mythology have been wiped away except when it can be profitably merchandised in nostalgic toys, and in the way creators like Gail Simone, Cullen Bunn, and Grant Morrison being badly mistreated until they leave the company.

If you (whether you specifically, Something Amyss, or the general you) like the animated movies, or even the live-action movies, then more power to you. I'm not trying to convince anyone to hate anything or anyone. I just think DC is slipping down a well-trodden, well-documented path.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Wow, that is the stupidest sentence I have ever seen in my life.

Okay. Thank you for sharing that extremely constructive and well-argued criticism, I guess.

Warner Bros. is not going as far as stop making movies/TV shows/etc. in favor of making solely Superman-themed slot machines or anything.

I did not compare Warner Bros. to Konami. I compared DC to Konami. Please attempt to limit your retorts to things I have actually said.

I'm not even a big fan of most DC characters, but they've done a pretty solid job with their animated series/movies. As a general rule, I'll take the DC animateds over the Marvel any day. I don't think Konami could manage that.

I am a fan of DC characters, which is why Nu52 (and by extension, the direction the DCCU seems to be going in) bothers me. I see parallels in the way eighty years of history and mythology have been wiped away except when it can be profitably merchandised in nostalgic toys, and in the way creators like Gail Simone, Cullen Bunn, and Grant Morrison being badly mistreated until they leave the company.

If you (whether you specifically, Something Amyss, or the general you) like the animated movies, or even the live-action movies, then more power to you. I'm not trying to convince anyone to hate anything or anyone. I just think DC is slipping down a well-trodden, well-documented path.

Then let me correct that. DC is not going to turn Superman into a Pachinko Machine.

And yes I think its very stupid for people to just arbitraly compare to companies even though what they are doing is vastly different. Hence you saying that DC is like Konami is blowing it out of proportion.

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

-snip-

I will take a few years of established continuity, over a movie that is going to ham-fist in an origin story for every hero in it. You think they won't in Superman vs Batman? They have. It's in the trailers. A Superman movie with Batman's origin written in. That movie will not end well.

 

[Hawki]

In terms of dough? Civil War.

In terms of personal preference? Well, not that interested in either, but Civil War is an MCU film, so DoJ wins by default.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Yeah WB clearly treats the DC source material with no respect, its as if the DCAU that was done by WARNER BROS. ANIMATION clearly neven cared about the:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXph0arElKs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUcKJflBG8Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQVC2zCC5qA

You clearly fail at history. Warner Bros. and DC have been married with each other for DECADES now. And DC comic books gave us the best comics in the 80s.

I'm not going to argue against the quality of the Animated stuff up to even Young Justice, nor am I going to argue against the quality of DC comics in the 1980's. Heck I'll one up you. Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, The Dark Knight Rises along with most of the DC superhero movies made up into the 1990's were largely the gold standard of comic book superhero movies.

There's a problem there: All of this is in the past. Even if the comic books are still great, even if the animated stuff was still amazing... Which the latest runs in comic books has been pretty meh, and animation has devolved to Teen Titans Go!... Still, that's pretty niche, along with the fact that superhero cartoons and comic books are seen largely as kid stuff anyways.

What we're talking about here isn't really the vast sea of DC content, we're talking about the current DCCU, and it's crap. Total crap. Using the the supporting material that is really only followed by the hardcore fanbase is a fan-boy/girl argument. We're talking current DCCU versus current MCU, which if we're being honest, the current MCU absolutely obliterates the current DCCU. Man of Steel set the tone for the current DCCU especially the Justice League movies. That is not promising, considering that DC is coming late to the party, especially considering that the way they're doing it is a hollow attempt to cash in on Marvel's success.

The thing is I LIKE THE TONE OF THE CURRENT DC MOVIES.

I don't want characters spouting patronizing and predicital and annoying jokes, one-liners, and all the stuff.

Sometimes the stuff Star Lord, Iron Man says makes me wanna punch them in the face.

The Marvel movies treat their Superheroes like Clowns or winking at the audiance comedians. I mean its not surprising since Avengers was directed by Joss Whedon

Which is funny considering the trailers I have seen for Suicide Squad Harley Quinn and Joker mabye the only comic relief cast that fits perfectly with the movie. I mean seriously in the trailers they showed alot of screentime of Harley Quinn.

And come on how unfair is it that you stack MCU against DCCU when MCU already has a ton of movies in its library (All of them varying in quality from mediocre to good) while DCCU has Man of Steel and I liked Man of Steel. Yeah it has its flaws but it also had its great moments. The Kryton opening. The character of Zod, the action, I think Henry Carvill is the best guy to be live action Superman.


Also you mention Teen Titans Go yet we are getting a balls out R Rated Batman The Killing Joke Animated Adaption.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

-snip-

I will take a few years of established continuity, over a movie that is going to ham-fist in an origin story for every hero in it. You think they won't in Superman vs Batman? They have. It's in the trailers. A Superman movie with Batman's origin written in. That movie will not end well.

You know that whole Batman origin scene could be at best just a nightmare/flashback Bruce will have in the movie.

And judging from the trailers I have seen they barely showed anything related to Origin story I mean I am certain we are not gonna see how Wonder Woman is born and she became Wonder Woman. And Aquaman might be just a 5 min cameo like how Thanos was in Guardians of the Galaxy.

 

[Loonyyy]

Derailing trains? That sounds like supervillain talk! Who are you, really?

Curses! You have unveiled my secret identity! I AM BUSMAN! Trains pose a threat to my control of public transport, and reduce my market share. By destroying the trains, I will be the sole provider of public transport! My Uber scheme has already undermined the taxis (Seriously, Uber is a totes evil name).

Derail the Hype train! Derail all trains!

(But seriously, fuck hype trains, and fuck brand loyalty. These movies succeed or fail on their own. If they distract me from my miserable failure of a life for their run-time, they're ok. If not, they're not. Whether one is "winning" or not is pointless. Especially before they've even come out. Don't be a sheep. I know that sort of line is old, but don't we all want to be individuals? To be self-determiend? Can we not just mindlessly buy into advertising?)

 

[Something Amyss]

(But seriously, fuck hype trains, and fuck brand loyalty. These movies succeed or fail on their own. If they distract me from my miserable failure of a life for their run-time, they're ok. If not, they're not. Whether one is "winning" or not is pointless. Especially before they've even come out. Don't be a sheep. I know that sort of line is old, but don't we all want to be individuals? To be self-determiend? Can we not just mindlessly buy into advertising?)

I know you're speaking generally, but I'm not sure I have what could be considered brand loyalty. Or I have some ridiculously weakened strain. Like, I go watch Marvel movies on the grounds that they've entertained me thus far, so I have some level of expectation that they will continue to do so. I mean, few MCU projects have been much more than dumb fun, but I have enjoyed them.

If DoJ manages to be a good movie I will enjoy it. If DC can come up with some movies that look like they know what they're doing? Awesome. I stick with brands only when it's convenient to do so, though. I'm assuming Marvel can stick up for itself and whatnot. I don't have a huge pony in the fight. But I do have higher expectations for Marvel based on past performance.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

I feel Civil War is going to do well because Marvel has proven to have some formula to their shared universe that just works. DC/WB have had little success outside of Batman movies, the Arrowverse and the original Superman flicks (though III and IV were turds as were all the post-Burton, pre-Nolan Batman flicks).

I'm hoping that Batfleck v Supes turns out better though.

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

You know that whole Batman origin scene could be at best just a nightmare/flashback Bruce will have in the movie.

And judging from the trailers I have seen they barely showed anything related to Origin story I mean I am certain we are not gonna see how Wonder Woman is born and she became Wonder Woman. And Aquaman might be just a 5 min cameo like how Thanos was in Guardians of the Galaxy.

Depends on how much WB assumes people are familiar with the lore. Thus far, they aren't assuming anything.

 

[irishda]

Civil War doesn't have me impressed so far, but then I've been moving away from comic book movies in general ever since Avengers. I've made no secret of my hatred of Captain America, the blandest superhero whose greatest power is the writers always making him right, for the unforgivable crime of never giving us the badass spy movie involving a former Russian assassin and Samuel L Jackson trolling honky cops. And the teaser trailer so far has only solidified my long-standing hatred.

Let's be honest, Tony's arc is a good one, and an understandable one. Going for a decisively anti-government watchdog stance to a very pro-government watchdog looks contradicting at first, but consider he's seen no less than two demigods, one of which opened a portal for a full scale alien invasion, a killer AI born of an alien power source brought by those demigods, a woman who could mentally hack people, a person with super speed, and the single most destructive force known to man that only needs one stubbed toe to be unleashed. Not to mention all the other shit that he missed out on (Dark elves, a murderous general who could destroy a planet with a touch, ANOTHER Hulk, etc). Now he understands that governments should probably have some interest in some degree of oversight over these forces. Captain counters all of that implied statement with "But he's my friend." As if that alone justifies it.

"Hey, don't worry everyone! I know there are forces out there that could end humanity, but Captain said he's got it so, let's just trust that. You want Chinese?"

Also, concerning the general public, you'll probably get some comic fans and people that think Chris Evans is hotter than RDJ, but I don't know how anyone else would root for Evans over Downey. At least, Batman and Superman are fairly even on the scale of likability among people.

 

[irishda]

Or which is the better Western- 'Unforgiven' or 'Maverick'?
It's the cinematic equivalent of apples and oranges.

I mean, obviously Maverick, but only because Unforgiven really drags in the third act until Eastwood gets thoroughly pissed enough. Now Maverick against The Missing, Pale Rider, or Magnificent Seven, then we've got a discussion.

 

[Loonyyy]

(But seriously, fuck hype trains, and fuck brand loyalty. These movies succeed or fail on their own. If they distract me from my miserable failure of a life for their run-time, they're ok. If not, they're not. Whether one is "winning" or not is pointless. Especially before they've even come out. Don't be a sheep. I know that sort of line is old, but don't we all want to be individuals? To be self-determiend? Can we not just mindlessly buy into advertising?)

I know you're speaking generally, but I'm not sure I have what could be considered brand loyalty. Or I have some ridiculously weakened strain. Like, I go watch Marvel movies on the grounds that they've entertained me thus far, so I have some level of expectation that they will continue to do so. I mean, few MCU projects have been much more than dumb fun, but I have enjoyed them.

If DoJ manages to be a good movie I will enjoy it. If DC can come up with some movies that look like they know what they're doing? Awesome. I stick with brands only when it's convenient to do so, though. I'm assuming Marvel can stick up for itself and whatnot. I don't have a huge pony in the fight. But I do have higher expectations for Marvel based on past performance.

Yeah, I'm not having a go at you, or even anyone in particular. Hype is bugging me more and more. Like, we get it, you're excited for something. That's nice. Do we really need to pick apart ads to do our best to ruin upcoming titles, do we really need to ask people movie they think they'll favour, based on a couple of trailers short on info?

But then again, I am the BUSMAN.

 

[spartan231490]

DC can't make a decent super-hero movie to save their lives. And no, the batman trilogy doesn't count because batman isn't a superhero, he's a rich hero. Also, Cap and stark are just better, more interesting characters inherently than batman and superman. Civil ware will undoubtedly be better.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

You know that whole Batman origin scene could be at best just a nightmare/flashback Bruce will have in the movie.

And judging from the trailers I have seen they barely showed anything related to Origin story I mean I am certain we are not gonna see how Wonder Woman is born and she became Wonder Woman. And Aquaman might be just a 5 min cameo like how Thanos was in Guardians of the Galaxy.

Depends on how much WB assumes people are familiar with the lore. Thus far, they aren't assuming anything.

Again your basing this one what? Show me your source about WB not assuming people already knowing the lore and I might agree with you.


And last but not least all I can say is even if this movie sucks from a story perspective well at least in Zack Snyder I trust to give me visually awesome and badass action scenes and set pieces.

Honestly ever since Man of Steel people are equating Zack Snyder as the anti-christ of film, no better then Michael Bay and Uwe Boll despite making great comic book movies 300 and Watchmen (The Watchmen adaption the best it could possibly be as an adaption)

 

[JimB]

"Hey, don't worry everyone! I know there are forces out there that could end humanity, but Captain said he's got it so, let's just trust that. You want Chinese?"

I don't think you're giving the premise its due credit. I don't know exactly what the movie's plot will be, but based on the information available, it seems like a metaphor for certain Constitution-violating legislations passed in the wake of certain terrorist attacks on American soil, where requiring superhumans to register with the government is an act analogous to requiring gun owners to register* themselves with the government, which would be a violation of the Second and...Fourteenth, I think, Amendments of the Bill of Rights. From that angle, Captain America is just living up to his legend and supporting the ideals the country has enshrined as fundamental, via the literary device of protecting an innocent man who is also his friend from having his rights knowingly violated by a government acting out of fear.


*Which I'd actually support, for the record, but never mind.

 

[Cicada 5]

As we get farther and farther into the MCU I've gotten more and more dissatisfied with them.

They're all really fun movies, but...thats it. You get a gem every once in a while (Winter Soldier), but for the most part they're just fun movies with loud explosions and witty banter. The villains are 100% inconsequential. You could just label the villains of the Iron Man movies as Tony Stark and you'd be far more correct than putting the actual villains they cast as the bad guys. Cap's villains are Nazis, just...Nazis doing Nazi things.

They're super fun movies, but I'm sick of the lack of substance. Civil War looks like it might actually have some for once. The idea that Cap is the straight up bad guy and making really bad decisions intrigues me. It doesn't seem to mesh well with the original Civil War storyline of everyone having valid points, but everyone being stupid about it, however I can deal with it if it actually makes for a movie that isn't just fun. However I can't shake the feeling that I'm just getting jerked around like I did with Age of Ultron. I was sold on a terrifying AI robot thing, created due to the hubris of Tony Stark, that just wrecks havoc on the world. Instead I got one very momentary glimpse of that (which we saw in every trailer btw), then James Spader being funny as Ultron and losing, constantly losing over and over.

Dawn of Justice looks like they're going all in with it not just being a big dumb action movie and I need superhero movies to be more than just big dumb action movies.

All told, I'm far more excited for Dawn of Justice than I am for Civil War, which is a huge shame because I actually enjoy the Captain America movies.

I'm not sure how you're getting the idea that Cap is the bad guy in Civil War. The trailers pretty much show him in as positive a light as possible.

Other than that I agree with everything you say.

 

[Something Amyss]

Yeah, I'm not having a go at you, or even anyone in particular. Hype is bugging me more and more. Like, we get it, you're excited for something. That's nice. Do we really need to pick apart ads to do our best to ruin upcoming titles, do we really need to ask people movie they think they'll favour, based on a couple of trailers short on info?

But then again, I am the BUSMAN.

Yeah, I'd like to see less hype in general. I'm sort of worried with the new Star Wars if it's not the second coming of Christ scored by John Williams, it will be savaged as the worst thing ever. Because it seems like so much of the hype culture only goes to extremes.

My biggest worry with these big movies is I want them to be good so I can get more of them. It's honestly in my best interest if BVS doesn't suck because more comic book movies that are good means more comic book movies in the future and more chances for them to be good.