Clarksons done it again (I think this is the 4th time...)

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Meado

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Fondant said:
1. Clarkson is a Tory. That alone makes the man an utter idiot, and his sheer arrogance is, while amusing, also rather grating. And the man liked Thatcher. That's another piece of evidence for his bias and his idiocy.
Yes, because a person's political stance sets their IQ.

2. While it seems to be rather popular for...etc...
Yes, we had the foriegn workers debacle, but that was hardly Brown's fault. The government has no legal right to interfere with a company operating entirely within the law- foriegn employment laws instituted, in fact, under the regime of dear Mrs Thatcher!
Firstly, Brown came into leadership without being voted for. That goes against everything democracy stands for. You'll have to forgive us if we find it offensive that he calls himself our representative.
Second, Thatcher's been out of office for over 18 years now. I think that's more than enough time to correct her mistakes, so stop blaming Labour's cock-ups on her.
I agree on the "out of X-million, at least Y-million will be unemployed at any time" thing though.

3. The past ten to fifteen years of prosperity have also been due, in part, to Mr Brown. He successfully managed to ensure an equitable distribution of economic growth in most sectors of...blah blah blah
I'm not going to argue this point with you. I'm no financial expert (and the only benefit I've ever seen from this "growth" was a few weeks of dole money between jobs last year) so I can't pull out any figures.

4. The Sun, Daily Mail and Daily Telegraph are rags, as is the Mirror and all other tabloids. The Telegraph is just a tarted-up rag.
Agreed. Newspapers can suck my hairy... arms.
 

Unusual_Bulge

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Meado said:
Firstly, Brown came into leadership without being voted for. That goes against everything democracy stands for. You'll have to forgive us if we find it offensive that he calls himself our representative.
I just have to quickly jump in on this point. Why do people think that that's how the voting system works? We have never voted for a Prime Minister. We vote for local Members of Parliament. We choose them to represent us. They then choose (or will already have chosen) their leader on our behalf. And, these people who we choose to represent us supported Gordon Brown to such a degree that out of the several hundred possible Labour MPs, not one could be found with enough supporters to even stand for election as party leader.
 

Rolling Thunder

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It would seem my light-hearted, semi-ironic political commentary has passed so far over Meado's head that it has entered geostationary orbit. I was joking. I still am, but there is a more insulting aim to it, so pray forgive my arrogance.

Secondly, I am not blaming anything on Mrs Thatcher, because I really don't care. Those foriegn-employment laws are there to facilitate free movement of economic factors throughout the EU. Yes, it might be bad for a few people in the short run, but when we're out of this economic slump then it will increase prosperity. I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy of Mr Cameron blaming the incident on Mr Brown.

Thirdly: Meado, you only spent a few weeks unemployed. THAT was the benifit- the fact that only a few weeks of your life were spent in unemployment in the past fifteen years. Now, I can't make a more detailed assessment of this without knowing the nature of your proffession, but a few weeks is not bad for roughly 75% of people worldwide.


Fourthly: There are three good British Newspapers- The Times, for it's archaic, gentlemanly conservatism, the Guardian, for it's archaic, reformist left-wingerism, and the Independant, which slightly leans to the left but is relatively unbiased on most articles
 

beddo

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I think freedom of speech should win out here. People don't have a right not to be offended!

The day you can't criticise the Prime Minister and make fun of his appearance is a bad day for democracy.
 

beddo

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Meado said:
Fondant said:
2. While it seems to be rather popular for...etc...
Yes, we had the foriegn workers debacle, but that was hardly Brown's fault. The government has no legal right to interfere with a company operating entirely within the law- foriegn employment laws instituted, in fact, under the regime of dear Mrs Thatcher!
Firstly, Brown came into leadership without being voted for. That goes against everything democracy stands for. You'll have to forgive us if we find it offensive that he calls himself our representative.
Second, Thatcher's been out of office for over 18 years now. I think that's more than enough time to correct her mistakes, so stop blaming Labour's cock-ups on her.
I agree on the "out of X-million, at least Y-million will be unemployed at any time" thing though.
I'm not going to say that it is democratic but then I don't believe the electorial or parliamentary system is significantly democratic, far from it given the levels of corruption in government.

Brown was in essence voted for in that we Labour won the election then decided to elect Gordon Brown as their leader. It's not wholly undemocratic, it's just on the blurred edges of democratic.

Agreed on the Thatcher point, if they have a disagreement with her policies they have had more than enough time to correct them are being in power entitles them to do so. Not correcting the fallout from Thatcher is down to either complacency or utter ineptitude.
 

Kevvers

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As someone who lives in the 'Tory heartland', most people I know are like Jeremy.
To help understand his statements here is some context:
- They are Tories. Therefore they are better than everyone else, richer, more deserving etc.
- They are self-made men, who worked hard their entire lives for what they have today (except when didn't) and don't see why they should have to support the rest of us slacking lazy work-shy poor people.
- They are smarter than everyone else because they have more money and better cars.
- They make enjoy a good joke, as long as its at your expense.
- They speak their mind. Often.
- They are like characters cribbed from "An Inspector Calls".
- They are not always, but sometimes bigots.
- They are not always, but sometimes arseholes.

This doesn't really have anything to do with political free speech or anything like that. This is just another Tory opening his mouth and being rude, like Boris Johnson calling all Liverpudlians fat or black people piccaninnies. You just have to laugh it off and vote accordingly.
 

beddo

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Fondant said:
1. Clarkson is a Tory. That alone makes the man an utter idiot, and his sheer arrogance is, while amusing, also rather grating. And the man liked Thatcher. That's another piece of evidence for his bias and his idiocy.
I wouldn't say that Jeremy Clarkson is an idiot exactly, a bit of an idiot yes but not a full flung one. I don't think that he's a Tory by choice, more that the Tories view just happen to mostly align with his own.

I think Jeremy Clarkson and anyone else should be free to criticise anyone, especially those in Government. People have criticised politician's appearance and circumstances for years, just look at Spitting Image!

What does annoy me about Clarkson is his opinions on things. He writes quite a few books explaining what he thinks is wrong with so many aspects of Britain. However, his view are rarely constructive, they are rarely more than rants. He wants things to change for selfish reasons, he only criticises about things that affect him and he doesn't seem to care about anyone else. I criticise a lot of things in Britain but I like to think that changes I would make would be for the benefit of most people, often not for myself included.

2. While it seems to be rather popular for people to bash Gordon Brown, I feel the distance of living in the Dark Continent (named so for the locals per se, but their beer) has given me a better perspective than most British people on Brown. Gordon Brown is, and has been, a competent leader. (Gasps from the audience)

I know, controversial isn't it. Brown, a good leader? How dare I say such things!? How dare I go against the mainstream!? How dare I contravene the will of the newspaper men and their overlords!
I agree that Gordon Brown has been a rather good leader though I really disagree with his economic policy of late. I was so happy to see the back of Blair, he was a real religious nutjob. His rant at the media, especially the Independent was unbelievable. He really lost towards the end, if he had the powers of a dictator he would undoubtedly have closed them, the Guardian and the Times.

His recent trip to the US just shows how more mental he has become. Complaining about not being to act like a President but having to act like a Prime Minister. He still seem reluctant to accept that the Iraq war was a bad move, he goes on about being so religious but seems to have no qualms about the hundreds of thousands that died as a result of an action he was heavily a factor in. Or the fact that he had to sign off on every arms deal made by UK parties. Or the fact that his government's security agencies were actively involved in kidnapping and torture. Or that those agencies were responsible for the murder of Dr. David Kelly, likely indirectly under his instruction.


Yes, you heard it hear. All your 'Brown is teh shitz, lol' opinions are not your own. They have been merrily spoonfed to you by the media, and if you cannot realise that now, you will in a few years when you're suffering under a Conservative regime. Brown is a competent politician and a brilliant economist. Yes, he hasn't stopped the recession, but he sure as hell has softened the blow. Yes, millions are out of work, but in a nation whereby 45-50 million people are working then you're always going to have a million-plus out of work at the best of times.
It's okay to have around a million unemployed if you are at full employment (number of available jobs is roughly equal to number of people out of work) however this is not the case. Unemployment is rising because of economic mismanagement over the past decade.

The current Keynesian method of trying to 'fix' the economy is stupidity at its best. In the history of capitalism, this method of trying to stimulate the economy has NEVER worked. Why governments persist in following it is beyond me, I guess they have to look like they are doing something.

The fact is that the recession is more a correction. It's a correction of unchecked economic growth on an unsustainable dangerous level of credit that was allowed to go on not only through the lack of decent financial regulation but actual deregulation of it. Intervening in the atrocious mismanaged banks means that his original laissez faire attitude towards the economy when times were good are now not able to punish the banks.

Now Brown is considering printing money! Without an increase in output this will fail and do nothing but increase inflation. While it may encourage the banks to lend a bit more it's nothing but futile as consumer confidence has taken a massive blow, no matter how much you make it available people simply don't want to borrow it! Someone needs to get in a stop this madness!

The only way to help the economy is to do the opposite of what we are doing now. Unfortunately bailing out the banks was necessary. Oddly the government felt the need to tell everyone their plans which made share prices sky rocket before they purchased, making the burden on the tax payer even worse.

However, the government needs to cut back and reduce spending across the board. Reducing the size of government will reduce the burden on the tax payer and encourage more saving and/or spending in the long run.

When inflation was at 5% interest rates should have gone up rather than down. Now they keep going lower which is just a mistake. Making it easier for people to borrow money is having almost no effect on the demand for loans. When people are worried about job security the last thing they are going to do is borrow money. People who owe will pay it off rather than borrow more. Moreover, those on mortgages who see their payments go down with the rates are just going to put more money into their mortgage they will reduce their future burden while the rates are low. This does NOT encourage spending.

However, if the rates were put up you would see those with saving more likely to splash out. In fact, people in general would be more willing to save which would begin to reduce the burden on the government to prop up the banks. In turn reducing tax payers' liability.

Yes, we had the foriegn workers debacle, but that was hardly Brown's fault. The government has no legal right to interfere with a company operating entirely within the law- foriegn employment laws instituted, in fact, under the regime of dear Mrs Thatcher!
Ironically more people from Britain work in Italy than the other way around. We get more from these agreements than Italy does.

3. The past ten to fifteen years of prosperity have also been due, in part, to Mr Brown. He successfully managed to ensure an equitable distribution of economic growth in most sectors of the economy and that the rewards of that would go not just to the rich and powerful but to all. It is entirely likely that the majority of British people have benifited from Mssrs Blair and Brown's regimes, and if you cannot see that then god help us all.

This is simply wrong. The benefit we had was not sustainable and we are now seeing the fallout from it. The growth in the economy was almost all due to an increase in the amount of credit available. No-one thought about the ability to pay it all back. When the lenders asked for just that all of this bad debt came out and all the growth on the back of this insecure credit has led to this latest recession. So the benefit was just an illusion as it was unsustainable.

More importantly, while the government doesn't actually have a large direct role in economic growth their failure to regulate it properly has like a pack of dominoes, caused the house of cards to fall, checkmate.

4. The Sun, Daily Mail and Daily Telegraph are rags, as is the Mirror and all other tabloids. The Telegraph is just a tarted-up rag.
Agreed.
 

Rolling Thunder

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*Yawn*

Now before I start, I'm going to cite that my only qualifications involve doing the entire International Cambridge AS and A Level Economics course in a single year (for those unfamiliar, that accounts to doing a 2-year course in an single year) and getting an A. I also plan on studying economics at university come this September. I have read two textbooks, Keynes's General Theory and Adamn Smith's the Wealth of Nations.


Firstly, Mr beddo- do not put your opinions inside of my quotes. Place them outside.

Secondly, your calculations seem to be based rather on 'opinion' rather than 'fact'. There is no evidence that the growth we have had is unsustainable growth-through-credit. Indeed, if it had been so, we would have had significant levels of inflation, which we did not (5% is not significant. 5% is within reasonable, healthy parameters), so we may assume that supply has equated to demand over these years.

The crisis is not a matter of output. Output is fine and dandy. The problem is that with the violent contraction of the money supply, demand has been lowered so much that the current output is far in excess of market demand, causing firms to lose money.

Thirdly, it has been proven that a reduction in taxes is not a way to increase demand, as by reducing taxes, you mean 'reduce taxes on the wealthy', and unfortunately, the wealthy simply do not spend enough to make an impact. Their marginal propensity to save is notoriously high.

Mr Brown's cut in VAT is what would increase demand, but unfortunately he has not lowered the VAT indirect taxation sufficently for it to have enough effect, and companies have not adjusted their prices accordingly.


Fourthly, without credit there is no increase in the supply, or output of an economy beyond technological innovation, and that is too infrequent a phenonmenon to be relied on. Credit helps small firms start up and what helps people buy houses with equal, nondiscriminatory measure.


The failure was with stockbrokers, but the fallout hits everyone. Tis the way of the world.
 

samwaterman

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May 28, 2008
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the bbc are just bricking themselfs because they think people care, nobody does and they think that everyone is going to go up in arms like they did with russle and ross, but that the reason that people like clarkson is that the fact he speaks his mind and is funny about because brown he is a one eyed scottish idoit
 

WeedWorm

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Nov 23, 2008
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Haha, good old Clarkson. You know that appology is bullshit, he just doesnt want to get in trouble.
 

Rolling Thunder

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Brown lost his eye playing rugby, thus demonstrating that whatever else you may say about him, he's got balls. Can anyone tell me of any other rugby-playing politicians?
 

Trivun

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Kevvers said:
As someone who lives in the 'Tory heartland', most people I know are like Jeremy.
To help understand his statements here is some context:
- They are Tories. Therefore they are better than everyone else, richer, more deserving etc.
- They are self-made men, who worked hard their entire lives for what they have today (except when didn't) and don't see why they should have to support the rest of us slacking lazy work-shy poor people.
- They are smarter than everyone else because they have more money and better cars.
- They make enjoy a good joke, as long as its at your expense.
- They speak their mind. Often.
- They are like characters cribbed from "An Inspector Calls".
- They are not always, but sometimes bigots.
- They are not always, but sometimes arseholes.

This doesn't really have anything to do with political free speech or anything like that. This is just another Tory opening his mouth and being rude, like Boris Johnson calling all Liverpudlians fat or black people piccaninnies. You just have to laugh it off and vote accordingly.
I am a Tory and my entire family have been Tories for years. We completely opposed Gordon Brown taking power, always vote Conservative, and I personally want to see a General Election within the next year. However, I, and every other Tory I know, has never (to my knowledge) been guilty of the above accusations. I work hard for what I get and so do many other people I know, the only people I feel don't deserve what they get are those who deliberately sponge off the state. I have no problem with people who are on benefits or anything provided there is decent justification and they aren't just having kids to get more cash and so on. I enjoy plenty of jokes, at my own expense as well as others. I suppose I do speak my mind, like now, but by that same account given what you said above, you do too, so that point is pretty much invalid. I can't comment on 'An Inspector Calls' because I've never seen it performed or read the script. I am also never a bigot or an arsehole except to people who genuinely don't like me themselves, and this applies to plenty of other people I know, Tories and non-Tories. I actually share a flat with a Labour supporter (he's actually the vice-chair of the Labour Society at my university) and enjoy having debates with him occasionally about the state of the country and get on quite well with him. Therefore, my point is simply don't accuse us of something that isn't true (or that everyone else also does).
 

Kevvers

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Trivun said:
I am a Tory and my entire family have been Tories for years. We completely opposed Gordon Brown taking power, always vote Conservative, and I personally want to see a General Election within the next year.
You make it sound like he seized power in some kind of Marxist revolution. The labour party was elected by a sizeable majority both times, and Brown was elected in a fair if one-sided leadership contest. Much better than the bloody infighting that we saw when Thatcher went.

Trivun said:
However, I, and every other Tory I know, has never (to my knowledge) been guilty of the above accusations. I work hard for what I get and so do many other people I know, the only people I feel don't deserve what they get are those who deliberately sponge off the state. I have no problem with people who are on benefits or anything provided there is decent justification and they aren't just having kids to get more cash and so on.
Yes, yes, I'm sure you're a very fair-minded decent chap... Except for that fact you have trotted off yet another cliché about single-mothers being unfit mothers who only have children for the benefits. Yes there are some, but the vast majority are people who simply made some bad decisions regarding birth control and their partners. What would you do? Force them back together by law? Send them to the workhouse? Some other Victorian era solution??

Trivun said:
I enjoy plenty of jokes, at my own expense as well as others. I suppose I do speak my mind, like now, but by that same account given what you said above, you do too, so that point is pretty much invalid.
Fair comment.

Trivun said:
I can't comment on 'An Inspector Calls' because I've never seen it performed or read the script.
You should, its good although you probably won't like it.

Trivun said:
I am also never a bigot or an arsehole except to people who genuinely don't like me themselves, and this applies to plenty of other people I know, Tories and non-Tories.
OK, bigotry is hard accusation, but it goes with the territory of being a right party because there are plenty out there. They have improved under Cameron but I think that's mainly about not hemorrhaging votes to the liberals from the middle class. I've stopped counting the number of bigoted remarks about women and minorities bandied around made by people sincerely when they can get away with it, and 'as a joke' when they can't. I can hear the clarion cry of "PC, PC" already, but really if you think about it, its not "PC" to dislike misogyny or racism. I won't pretend the labour party is free from bigotry either, but it is less so, because of the tendency to be crucified on all sides.

Trivun said:
Therefore, my point is simply don't accuse us of something that isn't true (or that everyone else also does).
Well, then you are a paragon amongst Tories, because all the ones I know fit this description pretty well.
 

Neosage

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Nov 8, 2008
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Why does everyone make such a big deal, the fat middle-aged git is only doing this for attention.
 

Trivun

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Dec 13, 2008
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Kevvers said:
Trivun said:
I am a Tory and my entire family have been Tories for years. We completely opposed Gordon Brown taking power, always vote Conservative, and I personally want to see a General Election within the next year.
You make it sound like he seized power in some kind of Marxist revolution. The labour party was elected by a sizeable majority both times, and Brown was elected in a fair if one-sided leadership contest. Much better than the bloody infighting that we saw when Thatcher went.

Trivun said:
However, I, and every other Tory I know, has never (to my knowledge) been guilty of the above accusations. I work hard for what I get and so do many other people I know, the only people I feel don't deserve what they get are those who deliberately sponge off the state. I have no problem with people who are on benefits or anything provided there is decent justification and they aren't just having kids to get more cash and so on.
Yes, yes, I'm sure you're a very fair-minded decent chap... Except for that fact you have trotted off yet another cliché about single-mothers being unfit mothers who only have children for the benefits. Yes there are some, but the vast majority are people who simply made some bad decisions regarding birth control and their partners. What would you do? Force them back together by law? Send them to the workhouse? Some other Victorian era solution??

Trivun said:
I enjoy plenty of jokes, at my own expense as well as others. I suppose I do speak my mind, like now, but by that same account given what you said above, you do too, so that point is pretty much invalid.
Fair comment.

Trivun said:
I can't comment on 'An Inspector Calls' because I've never seen it performed or read the script.
You should, its good although you probably won't like it.

Trivun said:
I am also never a bigot or an arsehole except to people who genuinely don't like me themselves, and this applies to plenty of other people I know, Tories and non-Tories.
OK, bigotry is hard accusation, but it goes with the territory of being a right party because there are plenty out there. They have improved under Cameron but I think that's mainly about not hemorrhaging votes to the liberals from the middle class. I've stopped counting the number of bigoted remarks about women and minorities bandied around made by people sincerely when they can get away with it, and 'as a joke' when they can't. I can hear the clarion cry of "PC, PC" already, but really if you think about it, its not "PC" to dislike misogyny or racism. I won't pretend the labour party is free from bigotry either, but it is less so, because of the tendency to be crucified on all sides.

Trivun said:
Therefore, my point is simply don't accuse us of something that isn't true (or that everyone else also does).
Well, then you are a paragon amongst Tories, because all the ones I know fit this description pretty well.

(Look at the 'spoiler' to see the previous posts I've quoted)

Points:

(1) I never said that. Basically, I suppose there wasn't much that anyone could do about Blair leaving, but a better solution would have been a General Election to be called straight away while Brown had power as a temporary stand in, and he would have then run for Prime Minister as the Labour candidate. That would have been much fairer and given a better indication of what the public wanted. As for infighting, we've got that now. Surely another soultion would have been better, since now there's too much backstabbing going on within Labour to oust Gordon Brown and get a new leader in.
(2) I never made any comment regarding unfit single mothers or stereotypes. All I said was that I disagree with people DELIBERATELY sponging off the state when they have other options. Obviously people who have no choice (my own father was made redundant after earning £50,000 a year and he never complains) are entitled to something, the people I have a problem with are those who can work, have time to work, but refuse to because they know that they can earn more from the state by lounging around than by doing something to help the economy and earn honest cash. This may well be a stereotype of people in inner-city slums and so on, but I never made that statement (until just now) in my first post.
(3) Glad you agree on the 'jokes' topic.
(4) Actually, I would very much like to see 'An Inspector Calls', I'm quite a fan of drama and acting myself and did English Literature a few years ago. Just never got round to buying a ticket whenever it's been performed near me.
(5) The thing about bigotry is that everyone can be affected by it, and everyone may be one to some extent, even you and me, despite my previous statement (which is NOT mutually exclusive, by the way). The Labour party refrain from bigotry now, but when they are eventually voted out of power or ousted, whichever comes first, we may well see a reversal. The Conservatives will be less bigoted because they'll be more in the spotlight, and the Labour party may become slightly more bigoted. I suppose though it may just be a trait of some people who belong to each party, but can't be taken as representative of the whole, for Conservative OR Labour. As for improving under Cameron, I suppose I can agree with you there. And as for being PC, I have to say that I hate the PC fanatics and Health and Safety freaks, and wish they could leave us all to live our own lives.
(6) I pity you slightly here, although neither of us can take our own experiences as representative of the whole. There may well be plenty of good Tories out there, just as there may be plenty of bad Tories, and the same goes for Labour. I believe Gordon Brown to be an example of a bad Labour minister, but there are likely to be plenty of good ones too. However, there are definitely plenty of good Tories as well and they are the ones who we should be looking to lead the party, just as we should look to the good Labour ministers to lead Labour. As for voting, I will still vote Conservative, but each to his own, I say.
 

Deadjim

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This is just Tabloid sensationalism, Clarskon was telling the truth we have a Scotish one eyed idiot in charge who thinks he is saving the world *cough* I mean country from the economic melt down which his laps in concentration over the previous 8 years as chancellor of the exchequer has help to create

bugger I've gone all political, Jezzer is ace tho
 

Danzaivar

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GB is a crap leader. His idea of prudence is to spend all income, keep debts at a steady level and hope it doesn't all mess up. When it does mess up however, he doesn't redeem himself by sticking to his guns and adjusting spending, he threw his '5 golden rules' out of the window (And boasted about it, iirc).

After 2 decades under the Tories, our debt was 40% of GDP. After 11 years of Labour (Which, there were no recessions or downslides in the economy) our debt was 40% of GDP. After a year of recession it's going to be 80% of GDP (Over 100% if you include the money to bail out the banks). And that number is only gonna go up for every month we're in negative growth.

That's looking at figures, that doesn't look at how he took all the credit for the growth but has refused to take any blame whatsoever now it's in reverse. That idiot doesn't deserve to run a chip shop, let alone a country.